Does the Saga deserve the title The Tragedy of Darth Vader?

I don't see the order affecting it being a tragedy or not. Vader comes out on top at the end of the PT (second in command to the leader and saved after his burning) - and ends up a Force ghost in the OT. I'm still not seeing the saga as a whole or in its parts as a tragedy...

 

When watching them as made (OT then PT), the PT is the backstory. When watching them 1-6 the PT feels like the hobbit to the OT's LotR to me, essentially maintaining the feel of a backstory.

Let me explain before anyone gets upset. For instance, the Force is talked about in 1-3, but it isn't explained until 4 & 5. If you have now idea about SW lore and begin at 1, you don't know what the force actually is until 4 & 5. They mention the Force and midi-chlorians but they never explain the force until Ben tells Luke about it. This is similar to how the ring is found in the hobbit, but its powers aren't revealed until lotr.

Likewise, the story structure itself feels like a setup once you meet Luke and everything is told through his eyes. The story shifts from galactic events to personal journey and focuses on Luke training to be a Jedi. The shift to a personal level makes it seem like the previous part of the narrative was used to lead you to this point, which is exactly what constitutes a back story.

 

when and how the expostion for something comes in relation to a story is not testament to how it has to be read.

 

When I read a novel, I tend to start at the middle and read to the end. Then I read from the beginning up to the middle.

Seriously, though, I know it is not that simple because the movies were made 4-6, and then 16 years later the 1-3 piece was begun. But I think that experience (having seen the OT first) has many still feeling that it makes more sense to watch them like that. I can see certain aspects that are a cooler "surprise" that way, such as "I am your father"... but overall the series as a whole works better in the plot-wise chronological episodic 1-6 order.

Also, I still think that we, the audience, can totally feel the shock of the "father revelation" that Luke experiences, even though we know from earlier in the series that that was the case.

 

The biggest issue for me is that Star Wars is an inherently introductory chapter. And the Jedi vs. Sith conflict, so central to all three prequels, is largely a background element until the middle of TESB.

I tried watching the movies in order once. Star Wars is my favorite, but even so when I got to it after the prequels the entire pace of the story was thrown off and progressing through felt like pulling teeth in comparison.

Star Wars is simply not a middle chapter. It's a beginning.

 

Anakin and Luke are not that similar. Already in TPM we get dire warnings about Anakin. There is Yoda?s prophet of doom speech, there is Obi-Wan saying that Anakin is dangerous and we have Palpatine saying he will watch him. Then in AotC Anakin goes totally kill crazy and wipes out a whole village, wallowing in hatred and death.
There is nothing remotely as bad or ominous with Luke.
Then in RotS we have Anakin worrying about Padmes death and Palpatine saying that only he can help her. So Anakins turns is not that big a shock because there are plenty of signs before hand. If Luke had turned in RotJ, you can bet that people would have been plenty shocked. Not to mention the movie would have had to find another ending.

There is a difference between tension and telegraphing, with Luke there was tension that he might turn but I was certain he would not and I think that most people that saw RotJ did not really think that Luke would turn and become evil. With Anakin it is different; there are many more signs and obvious telegraphing of his turn. Possibly this is because Lucas felt if Anakins turn was too sudden then people might not accept it. So he gave him baggage, he left his mother at a tender age, he watched the same mother die, he feared to loose Padme, etc.

1) About Smhi and Qui-Gon. Yes Qui-Gons death you could figure out from the OT but you would have no idea WHEN he would die. It could be in Ep I, II or III. But since I happened to read the back of the TPM soundtrack I got spoiled.
With Smhi it is different, nothing in the OT directly says she has to die so she could be around, just that no-one mentions her. So the OT is no help there.
Instead it just became very clear to me as I was watching TPM. You have a young boy Anakin, who cares very much about his mother and misses her after he leaves. This coupled with Yoda?s dire warnings about how terrible things would come from Anakin missing his mother. In all, it was very clear to me that Smhi would die a tragic death and this would impact heavily on Anakin. It is like in many films, the main character is single but he has a partner who has a girlfriend and a young kid. Typically the partner then dies, leaving the girl alone.

2) About the clones, again nothing in the OT specifically says that the clones killed the jedi. All we know is that Vader and the empire hunted down and killed most of the jedi.
We do not even know that the empire used clones in the OT.
No that comes simply from AotC alone. We learn of the clones and that they will follow any order without question, later we see Palpatine placed in command of these clones and in the end we see that the clone army was a part of Sidious master plan.
So Palpatine/Sidious now has an army that will do whatever he says. It does not take a genius to figure out that he plans to use it against the jedi at some stage.


3) Maul? He could have been the main Sith of all three films and Obi-Wan need not have killed him in TPM. But since he had almost n

 

You wouldn't know what the Force was because it wasn't explained? What would you imagine was making things fly around in AOTC and ROTS? How would you account for those things Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan did in TPM? When Anakin flew the piece of fruit, or Yoda and Dooku caused the building to start flying about - or Sidious and Yoda did their grand theatrics in ROTS...Wouldn't you just kinda 'get it'?

 

no it doesnt have to be a middle chapter. it can be an introductory (and as seen, a very brilliant one at that) but it can also pretty much be a standalone film. then again, just because it can be standalone doesnt mean it should be.

the reason a new hope feels so much like an introduction is the exposition of course. but this is rather brilliantly done. if it had a voiceover explaining all these things to the audience or a character sitting on an armchair looking into camera telling us the tale, assuming we hadn't seen any other movies, then it certainly would jar. you'd be thinking, well hang on, i've watched 1-3, i know this stuff already. BUT the exposition isnt done in such a patronising way. its done by an old character explaining it to a new character, one we immediately know will become crucial to the continuing saga, who knows NOTHING about it because he's been lied to by his guardians. said exposition is very clinical and very short and actually serves as a nice recap halfway into the story, allowing you a moment to consider the weight of what has come and where we are now going. its a handing over of the baton.

it can work very well as a middle chapter.

 

yes and lots of heroes in stories have magical powers that are not explained until some way into the story - it gives a greater sense of wonder and awe. thats not to say the force is not mentioned in ep.1. qui-gon references "the living force" in the first conversation with obi-wan - the jedi are spoken of as powerful beings and adversaries to be dreaded by the nemoidians. qui-gon states that "the force will guide us" on the bongo. it is clear they can do special things via use of this entity called the force. anakin's ability is summed up by saying "he can see things before they happen. its a jedi trait." it is clear the jedi have abilities to tap into this entity and utilise it to do special things. sometimes its better to not to batter your viewer over the head with heavy exposition that says "this is X, this is how X works" - you have to wait for such opportunities. qui-gon gets a moment to do so on the landing platform with anakin and obi-wan later gets one with luke in ANH, but opportunities to do such things and have them appear natural and not forced are few and far between when you are flung into such an established world.

anyone i have known to watch the films 1-6 has never asked for the pause button to be hit, questioning "what is that? how are they doing that?" its a fantasy film. there is duty to rely on the suspension of disbelief that a viewer naturally accepts when they sit down to watch such a film.

 

Well said. From a series storytelling perspective, ANH viewed after ROTS kind of feels like... "OK, so you know what happened in the end of ROTS where the Republic became the Empire, Anakin became Vader, and the twins are sent to live with other folks until the time is right. Well, it's now about twenty years later, and we're going to take a step back and look at things from a little different perspective. We're going to see what Leia is doing, we're going to see what Vader is doing, and maybe most of all, we're going to see Luke learn firsthand what has really happened in the past. We'll see him learn about the Force and the Jedi, and how these tie into his own family background. We're going to see him learn these things from Obi-Wan, who as we know has spent the last twenty years in exile in the desert, watching over him."

 

I discovered an unlooked-for peace. As long as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" is visually represented in cyclopean, gargantuan, Brobdingnagian, colossal, large, and big yellow block capital letters that round off over the curvature of the earth and are accompanied by a tympanum-tearing blast of brass, and are surrounded by vintage 30's illustrations of all things imperial, serial, Errol Flynnial and Buster Crabbial, I don't have a problem. If Lucas stays true to his swashbuckling roots, which he says out of his own mouth in the commentaries, then he gets to title his work how he pleases, and his selection of title can be accepted as 'deserving' within that framework. Only. Slick CGI (http://www.dusso.com/pages/EP3/EP3main.html) seduces the eye into mistaking the late product for high art legitimacy. The auteur is there, no doubt. But it is an auteur with a grand posture belied by humble origins. I say he can keep his grand posture if he frames it inside those humble origins, like a silhouette of Captain Morgan against G1 and G2, with tag line, 'Got a little Jedi in ya?'.

 

Nice verbiage, but the presence of General Grievous in the final film (production order), not not to mention the film's title, its opening crawl, various dialogue stylings, the iconic screen wipes, homages to serials of old (e.g. "Commander Cody" = "Commando Cody"), to say nothing of John Williams' lush, romantic score, more than keeps Lucas' last entry true to the series' swashbuckling roots, in the rich soil of escapism first, Greek Tragedy second.

 

You know/can figure out what the force DOES, but you do not know what the Force IS until ANH and ESB.

Give an example of such a story. There were plenty of opportunities for Jinn to describe the Force to Anakin in TPM but he didn't and the story wasn't structured for him to do it because it was already explained in ANH and the PT is the backstory.

 

Let me put this question before you all, then, in an effort to get the thread back on-topic:



In your opinions, if you think of the saga as something to be watched 456123, is that _necessarily mutually exclusive_ from thinking of it as The Tragedy of Darth Vader?



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Bertocci's question is an interesting one. Regarding the saga as 456123 is an entirely different perspective. Regardless of their sequence, I believe the films still convey this over-arching story about Darth Vader and the corruption from innocence to evil. Whether you view the films in one order to the other is a matter of linear vs. non-linear story telling. The chapters are the same, the message is the same, it is just a matter of sequence.

-Seldon

 

Star Wars is the TRAGEDY of Darth Vader and the COMEDY of Anakin Skywalker.

 

You would have no idea what the Force was but you could understand that something called the Force is what enables the jedi to do these things. There is a difference between understanding what something is and knowing what it can do. The explanation of what the Force is comes in ANH, and in TPM Lucas figured that people had already seen ANH and so did not want to explain it again.

Again ANH is the starting chapter as there we get an explanation of what the Force is, what the jedi were, their role, what happened to them, the existence of a Dark side etc.
After that explanation then we gets to see people using the Force, like Vader?s choke or Obi-Wan?s mind trick and that is also explained. In TPM it is again used but no explanation is given. In many movie or book series, the first part, or episode or book, usually takes some time to explain the world. In SW this happens in ANH, since it was the first episode. Having it as the 4th episode then feels odd. When ANH was made and first showed, we the audience knew as little as Luke so we learned with him. If you watch as the 4th film then we already know what Ben is talking about and it could feel boring and we?d say ?get on with it, we already know this?. I have heard this complaint from young people that watched SW 1-6. They say that ANH is boring, too slow and too little happens.

Simply because something is fantasy does not mean you can start doing anything willy-nilly. Suspension of disbelief is not an infinite pool, a storyteller can ruin it if he or she is not careful.
To make an extreme example, take ANH and the scenes on the DS. Whenever Luke and the others get in trouble they get unexplained powers that solve the problem.
In the trash compactor Luke suddenly gets a strong as Superman and stops the walls and then smashes down the door. When Obi-Wan faces Vader he just draws a big breath and blows Vader away. Then when the MF leave the DS and the TIEs follow, Han just makes then blow up with his mind. It is fantasy so anything goes right?
Wrong, if you do things like this you could loose the viewers.

The first Matrix film took some time to explain the world and how the Matrix worked.
The Harry Potter book took some time to explain that there were wizards and witches in the world, etc.

In closing and to answer AdamBertocci,
I do not view SW as the tragedy of Darth Vader regardless of the order.
1) Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker would have been a bit better but still not quite.
2) Anakin gets redeemed at the end of the story and dies a hero?s death and is forgiven his crimes. Tragedies do hot have happy endings.
3) The character of Anakin Skywlaker did not work that well for me in the PT films.
In TPM the uneven acting and directing sometimes made me not see the character but rather a young kid reading lines. In AotC I found the character to quite un likeable and so I did not connect with or felt very sad when bad things were happening to him. In RotS he worked better but the damage had already been done and his turn was no longer very tragic or sad.

Regards
Nordom

 

in the matrix is it not true that what the matrix actually is is not explained until midway into the film? an example of a character with special powers not explained until midway? how about terminator. we dont understand what he is, or how he is apparently invincible until the scene in the car with kyle explaining to sarah. exposition does not need to be immediate for a viewer to follow and enjoy a story. the force doesn't even neccessarily ever need to be explained for star wars to work. its not what star wars is about. im not even sure the force is properly explained in ANH. it works and appeals to people because it is so ambiguous, but thats another point entirely.

if you think lucas was worried about repeating himself in choosing not to explain it in TPM, that contradicts ESB when yoda gives almost exactly the same explanation as Obi-Wan in ANH - "life creates it, makes it grow." lucas has also said the movies should now be watched 1-6. you would have to take from that he is deliberately pacing the exposition of certain things throughout the course of the six movies. he's not ignoring it in 1 because he believes we should be watching them production order. he's proably, correctly thinking that what the force IS is not the most important part of the story here - at this point it is more how anakin's power is measured, thus midichlorians. it gets explained later of course. it becomes neccessary because Luke specifically asks to know what it is - and so he should. he is ignorant to the history of the jedi and the sith etc. whereas anakin is quite aware what a jedi is and dreams of becoming one. its more than likely, given such ambition and/or knowledge, he already knows what the force is. its not a secret thing - jar jar is aware, though he is dismissive of it. han solo is also aware of its legend in ANH.

i respect that the films can be watched in production order and work perfectly well. i just dont personally feel they work best in that order. if anyone is arguing that the films cant be watched the other way, i will refute that. there's no good reason why the shouldn't, though i'm not getting on a soapbox and trying to take issue with anyone who wants to view them in reverse. thats a personal preference - i dont think is the most satisfying option. however, it seems like people are coming on here stating "they should not be watched 1-6."

 

you're exaggerating what i'm saying. once the character is established it is not acceptable to simply have them doing just anything. but we are talking about in the establishment of a character whether or not their abilities need to be explained. if we were seeing luke in the trash compactor and it was our introduction to the character then it would not be very jarring at all for him to do what you say. however, we have established him as a humble, everyman character, of limited strength, and certainly vulnerable (tusken scene). we do not yet have faith in him to do extraordinary, physical things. when we see the jedi in TPM we establish them in their very nature to be extremely powerful. therefore our suspension of disbelief does not question anything we dont understand that they then are able to do. remember the nemodians fear of the "negotiators" when they hear they are jedi. their reputation leads to expectation.

oddly enough your example of kenobi literally blowing darth vader away wouldn't be unacceptable as we know he is a man of mystical powers. one could easily rationalise this is also part of his skillset, just like we see the jedi and sith force-pushing mid-duel. we dont question that ability because, as i say above, we know they have great, inexplicable powers. that is established in their character extremely early in TPM.

 

Midway through the FILM, not the SERIES. It would be completely different if the matrix wasn't explained until the 3rd movie or the terminator concept wasn't explained until T4.

Yoda's explanation is different and provides more details about the force, so it is not repetitive.

So explaining how the force is manipulated, i.e. midi-chlorians, is more important than explaining what the force is? I don't think so, and either does Lucas because when given the opportunity in ANH he chose to explain the force and not midi-chlorians TO THE AUDIENCE. He had a choice and he chose to explain the Force. When writing a story the characters learn things because the author wants to explain something to the AUDIENCE. It is irrelevant what the characters know when setting up a story because you have to make sure the audience knows.

I'm not saying that. I watch them 1-6. Having said that, no matter what order you watch it, the structure, exposition, and shift in focus of the movies makes 1-3 feel as a backstory. That's what I replied to an earlier post, the exposition on the force was an example of why it feels like a backstory.

 

in referring to star wars 1-6 as one big movie i stated it was fine for this part of expostion to come at the midway point - which, if you're watching 1-6, is in ANH. i said other MOVIES sometimes did not reveal explanations behind the fundamentals that drive the story. you asked for examples of such movies. i gave them. the terminator was never planned to be more than one movie originally, and the filmmakers deemed it justifiable to leave their own exposition until halfway into that particular story. episode 1 is made with knowledge of an already produced "sequel" in the chronology and therefore doesnt need to explain it. it will arrive later. it doesnt mean lucas is thinking "well i shouldnt explain this because the people watching this have seen the other films" - as we know, he is designing them to be seen by a whole new audience in the 1-6 order. what he is probably thinking is what i am arguing the case for - that the explanation will arrive halfway into the story so there is no neccessity to reveal it as early as TPM. its a difficult thing to describe. but my analogy is based on star wars being seen fundamentally as one movie, same as the terminator was only meant to be one movie (remember, cameron didnt know there would be sequels and certainly didnt expect them.) in making TPM, lucas knows he is making a 12 hr movie. it is not essential for him to cover ground he knows will come later into said movie in both the ANH and ESB chapters.

well as far as i can recall yoda's explanation is "life creates it, makes it grow." obi wan's explanation is "an energy field created by all living things." is that not essentially the same description of the same thing only worded differently? there may have been more to yoda's explanation, but from memory, those are the key points. its certainly repetition.

at THIS point in the story, yes. there is reason to reveal the midi-chlorian side of the story because that is the hook that gives qui-gon the drive to take anakin away from his mother. you can apply a number to it. you cant apply a number to the force as its a broader subject. that was a neccessary piece of expostition at that point in the story. the broader landscape of the force was not so. and even if it were you'd have a movie so laced with exposition you wouldnt be able to get the thing moving.

 

About the Matrix and Terminator, there the concepts are explained in the same film, in SW it is explained four films later, significant difference.
As for SW 1-6 being one film. Still does not work as the explanation comes many hours after we see the events. And that is assuming that a person sees all six films in one go, which would not be the most common way to see the film. A person would see one film per day or maybe one per week. So the point still stands, ANH is more of an introductory chapter as it explains things better than TPM. In my view of course.

Then you misunderstand my position. I said earlier that anyone should be free to watch the SW films or any films in the manner they feel work best for them. If you feel 1-6 works better for you then go right ahead I will not say that you are wrong or stupid for doing that. But what in part drew me to this thread is that people seemed to say that SW ?SHOULD? be seen 1-6 and that anyone that does not is just ignorant or deluded by nostalgia. This I react against, even when Lucas and Lucasfilm makes this statement.
No-one has any business telling someone else how they ?should? watch a film. They can say that their own preference is one way but everyone should be free to make up their own minds as to what works best them.

We can accept that they have powers but one would be curious as to how and why they have these powers and why others do not. Quite often in films or in books some type of explanation is offered as to how and why these people are able to do what they do. In some cases this explanation is very simple like ?he is a wizard? or ?she is a vampire?. These type of character have powers that, although they can certainly vary a lot, are generally known so one need not be very specific. If instead we are told that a character has powers because he is a Doomsayer, that will not tell us very much. In the case of SW, ANH was the first film and introduced many concepts like the Force, Jedi Knights and so on. So these things were then needed to be explained.
In TPM, these concepts are already known as most of the audience has already seen ANH so an explanation would feel redundant. But if TPM had been the first film then I am certain that there would have been far more explanations about many things.

In closing, the reason I think that 1-3 feels like back story is not so much the order in which I saw them but how they were made. 1-3 were made to provide back story to 4-6, at least that how they seem to me. It is not nostalgia or any inability to change my mind.

Regards
Nordom

 

As far as Matrix and Terminator go, again you're comparing one movie to a series. You would need to compare the series to each other. Also keep in mind that Lucas thought SW:ANH would only be one movie and structured it as such. It's success is what allowed more movies.

You can't apply a number to it but you could simply say "the force is strong in this one." You don't need a number to make Anakin special or train him as a Jedi. Writing in a line or 2 about what the Force IS would not have impeded the plot by making it "laced with exposition."

I'm not saying SW "is to be" watched 1-6. I said that is how I watch it. 1-3 is part of the continuing story, but it is not the story but the backstory portion of the continuing story. If a sequel trilogy as described by Lucas (focus being on Luke, moral choices, passing on what you have learned, etc.) would ever be made, it would be part of the continuing story that is Star Wars - but it would not be the story.

I personally read The Hobbit and then LotR because The Hobbit is part of the continuing story and comes 1st chronologically. It sets up the story of the ring. That does not make The Hobbit the story, it is the backstory for LotR. Same thing with Star Wars. Again, for me no matter what order you watch it, the structure, exposition, and shift in focus of the movies makes 1-3 feel as a backstory.

 

but remember the initial comparison that led to this was in regard to star wars 1-6 being viewed as one story and one film. i feel there are differences between movie sequels and movie continuations. the star wars "sequels" and "prequels" are each continuations. so there is a justification to view star wars as one movie broken up into six back-to-back sittings, where, if you do so, the exposition of one element in the story - the force - is left without explanation until the midway point. in the same way, you cant class the terminator's four films as one continuous movie because the first 3 are basically repetitions (admittedly with some twists now and again). if you feel im comparing a movie to a series then you're obviously not of the belief that star wars works as one movie and one story. thats fair enough. but i think that it does. i believe i am comparing a standalone movie to another standalone, albeit longer and broken-up movie.

anyhow, these comparisons are becoming distorted. im not comparing star wars to the terminator in any other way than to say the terminator is an example of something where a piece of exposition pertaining to the first half of the film is not explained until the start of the second half - much like it is in the case of star wars if you consider that to be one movie/one continuous story. i also believe that star wars would work perfectly well were the force never explained. that may sound daft but consider that the explanation of it is that it is "mystical." without explanation it is still mystical so essentially it is not even conducive for explanation. and it is not what star wars is actually about.

i dont think thats true. lucas claims, and this is backed up, that he always intended to make sequels. what he did say though, was that he expected star wars to do modestly at the box-office and have to make the next films on shoestring budgets. it was still his aim to make them though. that is why he was cunning enough to negotiate the sequels rights before ANH was even released - otherwise, fearing the box-office flop, he wouldnt have been allowed to make them. that and the fact that were it to be successful he didnt want the studio messing with his work. cameron had no terminator sequels planned and its one of the reasons the next terminator took 7-8 years to produce.

but how would he know that? simply by him racing podracers and knowing he had quick reflexes? its a pretty lame reason to take a child from his mother and claim he is the chosen one. anakin needs to evidenced as a hugely unique, special case - not just "strong in the force" or of unexplained parentage. that just wouldn't work. say what you want for the midi-chlorians, they serve an extremely useful part in the story and need to be explained. the broader subject of what the force is does not need heavy exposition at that stage and were you to give it, knowing it will be explained later, is a

 

i think 1-3 were made to complete an incomplete story. and i think thats the fundamental difference between our contrasting opinions.