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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Does the "Secret History of SW" paint an accurate picture of the making of the PT?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by kubricklynch, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Nothing really changed in TESB and ROTJ that affected what was written by Kasdan. Only one change to TESB was made in terms of dialogue, which Lucas as owner and co-writer could make as he so desired. And for ROTJ, Lucas and Kasdan talked about showing other worlds reacting to the victory at Endor and Anakin's appearance changing were the only real changes to the script. One idea was already talked about before being abandoned and the idea of Anakin appearing as a Force ghost was a late addition that Kasdan didn't even have any involvement in. It was Howard Kazanjian's idea. Not sure if Kasdan typed that in or if Lucas had someone else do it for the public release. Effects shots changes, alternate dialogue takes and additional scenes that don't alter the story in any meaningful way would fall more to the directors.

    And given that Lucas tore up his SAG and DGA cards in 1980, Kasdan couldn't really do anything about it.


    No, the directors did have say. It was a collaborative affair just like it was with Spielberg. But here is what he said in 1980.

    Jean Valley: Why didn't you direct The Empire Strikes Back?

    Lucas: I hate directing. It's like fighting a fifteen-round heavyweight bout with a new opponent every day. You go to work knowing just how you want a scene to be, but by the end of the day, you're usually depressed because you didn't do a good enough job. When I visited the set in Norway and saw all the problems and the misery that [director Irvin] Kershner was going through, wow, can you imagine being in the Arctic Circle at forty-five below zero? It's hard enough just to walk through it, let alone direct the actors, move the equipment. It was easy to let go of directing.

    Valley: What did you do on this film?

    Lucas: I provided the story and technical advice, like, does a robot do this or that? They shipped me the dailies and I looked at them. There were some problems. They were a little over budget, over schedule. That concerned me, because I only had so much money and I was afraid if they used it all up, we wouldn't be able to finish the movie. But I knew they were trying to do the best job they possibly could, and I thought the stuff looked terrific. It's truly Kershner's movie.

    Valley: Does that make you sad?

    Lucas: Well, it's still my story. I just didn't have to do all the work. [Smiling sheepishly] I feel Chewbacca is still my Wookie and R2-D2 is still my little robot.

    Valley: How would you have made the movie differently?

    Lucas: Hard to describe. I look at a scene and think, "Gee, I wouldn't have done it that way." A lot of people have told me that The Empire is a better film than Star Wars, so whatever my disagreements were, well, Kershner was right.

    --"The Empire Strikes Back and So Does George Lucas", Rolling Stone interview, 1980.


    You can read the rest of his opinions on the studio system here.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/...back-and-so-does-george-lucas-19800612?page=3

    And then there's this interview from 83.

    Paul Scanlon: Often, the title ''executive producer'' is an honorarium. Many never visit the set.

    Lucas: Well, in this case, it's a very collaborative situation, and the directors know that going in. I've got to find a director who's willing to give up some of his domain to me and is willing to work with me and accept the fact that he's essentially doing a movie that's been established, that ultimately I'll have the final say. There are a number of directors who just can't do that.

    Scanlon: While the picture is being shot, does the executive producer ever get the itch occasionally to direct?

    Lucas: Yeah. It's mostly the itch to move things along: ''Let's do it.'' But most of the directors are fast. Occasionally, there are problems because I've worked with these crews a lot, and sometimes they have tendencies to ask me questions instead of the directors – things get a little confused once in a while. The special effects and the editing are really more my domain than anything else, because I've had so much more experience at it.


    Scanlon: Do you position yourself a little differently on the Raiders pictures, which Steven Spielberg directs?

    Lucas: It's more of a traditional situation. I do the same thing, only I do less of it. Because ultimately, it's more Steve's vision than my vision, whereas Star Wars is really more my vision because I directed the first one. Steve directed the first Raiders. But again, the truth of it is that, even for a director like Steve and the directors on Star Wars, it's helpful to have a collaborator.

    Scanlon: Of course, the two of you are very simpatico.

    Lucas: He's a perfect director for me to work with. We just think the same way about everything. He'll go a little overboard one way, and I'll go overboard another way, but there's no conflict. There's nobody ramming ideas down the other person's throat. We have a great time together. He keeps saying it's my movie and I'll get blamed for it, and I keep saying it's his movie and he'll get blamed for it. I have no real desire to go out there and direct. It's not like I'm a producer who's sitting there waiting to direct behind somebody's back. I mean, I have no desire. I can do anything I want to do, and if I wanted to direct, I could go in there and direct. It's great to be able to throw out ideas. If they use them, fine. If they don't use them, big deal.

    --"George Lucas Wants to Play Guitar as 'Star Wars' Takes a Vacation", Rolling Stone Magazine, 1983.
     
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  2. KINGKONG83

    KINGKONG83 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2004
    I would rather recommend a book recently published called "How Star Wars Conquered the universe"..its really well researched and goes in depth into most if not all facets of Star Wars culture and Lucasfilm culture up to very very recently(it includes the Disney buyout),it also goes in depth about how the OT was made and stuff going on behind the scenes if you will as well as the PT and going into the start of the sequel trilogy as well as clone wars the cancellation of CW and Rebels..as well as fan culture and especially the 501st and how that came to be ,also features the droidbuilders etc etc

    its fairly objective and I would recommend it to anyone that want a indepth fly on the wall perspective on the goings on in Lucasfilm and their relation to fan culture and much more
     
  3. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009

    Obviously, filmmaking means collaboration. There isn't a single artist, many people contribute (actors, composers, writers, designers...) BUT all those individuals are "serving" the someone's vision. That "someone" hires them, supervises them and has the ultimate choice on what's left in the film.
    An actor does "create" (in a way) the character, but the actor can't decide how that performance is going to be used: someone else (the man in charge) cuts his performance, deletes scenes, cuts lines...
    The music composer is obviosuly the artist of the music, but again, he doesn't get to decide how that music is going to be used. In the case of John Williams, many of his cues for SW have been altered, eliminated, moved to other scenes... Is that disrespectful? Of course not, that's the nature of filmmaking. There are many people who contribute, many "artists", but there has to be someone making the final choices. And he's the overal artist of the movie.


    A few things about this:

    -"This is your movie". Partly yes, and partly that's Lucas being polite. If it was really meant to be Kershner's movie, Lucas would've given him the final cut.

    -"He visited the set only a couple of times". Wrong, just check out The Making of book. Lucas was on set for one third of the shooting (around two months): first two weeks of studio shooting in March 1979, one week in May 1979 and for about 5 weeks in July-August (when he became more actively involved in the shooting and "replaced" Gary Kurtz in a way). Obviously, that doesn't mean he was the director, but don't say he only visited the set "a couple of times".

    -"Lucas had some issues with how Kershner was making ESB". True, but many directors have issues with different collaborators (actors, composers...). Sometimes they even fire them. Lucas had disagreements with Kershner (although, as you say, most of them were budget related), he respected the man and didn't "impose" his vision, but at the same time, he didn't step out and let Kershner edit the film his way. There was compromise and there was collaboration.
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    He was never in conflict with the Berne Convention. The Berne Convention was actually adopted by the United States and it didn't stop Lucas from doing what he did.
     
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  5. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Great discussion deserving a bump.

    Regarding Vader as Luke's father: It's pretty interesting that the structure of the story would have been very similar even without it (i.e. Luke's redeeming his father's murderer). It might have been even more powerful: it seems easier for Luke to forget his own father or for Vader to save his own son. But it does make things more personal for Luke and a turn to the Dark Side a stark possibility.

    It's also ironic how it both creates problems for the prequels and makes them worthwhile. Anakin is torn between two extremes of being a good friend and Jedi and a selfish prick with anger management issues. But the juxtaposition of father and sons going through similar situations but making different choices is the most interesting aspect of the prequels (in terms of personal drama). Without it, what are we left with? Maybe one movie about Obi-Wan Kenobi investigating the murder of his friend and confronting the perpetrator (with similar political machinations).
     
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  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    You're right. It loses its subversive edge, its nerve, its brio.

    Not that that has gotten in the way of nostalgic hankerings for Darth Vader and "Father Skywalker" being separate people.

    The "Secret History" is dedicated to the memory of the original film. In my opinion, that speaks volumes.
     
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  7. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    It's not as if "Anakin-becomes-Vader" and "Vader-and-Father Skywalker-are-separate-people" were the only options available. Darth Vader could be Luke's (real) father, with he and Anakin/Annikin/Luke's (supposed) Father still being separate people


    It means that zombie really, really likes the original film....
     
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  8. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    And what would that accomplish?


    No ****.

    And you know the saying: love is blind.
     
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  9. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    I...don't know that it's supposed to 'accomplish' anything. It's an alternate idea for the story, that is all. Since you asked: what does making Vader Luke's father in the first place 'accomplish', as you put it? If you'd like, it was a possibility, if one takes TESB in isolation. The 'traditional' story, i.e. Vader kills Luke's father, was probably there in the event that Star Wars remained a stand-alone film, a sort of 'insurance' if you will. The 'alternative' story-line could have existed since as far back as the third draft of SW, but by the fourth as the potential 'real' story should SW go beyond one film (or book).

    Plus, with the alternate version, Ben can still be telling the truth from his point of view , while at the same time legitimately answering the question that Luke had actually asked him in his home in the first film.
     
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  10. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    It brings a much darker and more mature tone to TESB and the original trilogy. It says that Luke's kind of power is not an innocent one to possess. It forces Luke to confront a searing truth and let go of past delusions. It teaches the viewer how proximate evil is. It adds a tragic dimension to Vader's character and the whole Skywalker drama. It allows TESB to close in a very operatic way. It may even symbolize Lucas coming to terms with his own bitterness over America and foreign policy: if the "Evil Empire" was originally "American ten years from now" (per Lucas' notes), then Vader's revelation signifies the possibility of reunification and redemption, after innumerable abuses of power.

    Vader is actually the spiritual entwinement of America and its genocide of "others": including, conspicuously, the Native American population. The Vader suit evokes Scar, the hated Comanche Chief from "The Searchers", with a matched rape attack on Luke's homestead in ANH, and a second match with the capture and torture of Anakin's mother in AOTC; while Vader's voice-casting speaks further to political enslavement and extermination, with James Earl Jones being of mixed African and Native American ancestry.

    Vader as Luke's father is actually a very sophisticated story point. I'm surprised you could be so glib about it.

    Well, this is all speculation, leading to Planet Nowhere.

    Uh huh. Ben would still be concealing the truth from Luke in your alternate version.
     
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  11. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    I agree that Vader as Luke's father was a clever idea...provided that he wasn't necessarily one and the same as Annikin/Anakin/Tan Skywalker. (Not that Lucas actually showed Anakin becoming Vader in the PT, mind you).

    Edit:

    My question for you was actually rhetorical, because I no longer believe that the Father Vader idea evolved sequentially/chronologically from the 'original' or 'primary' idea of Luke's father having been killed by Vader.

    It's 'speculation' that fits the evidence better than the idea that he didn't think up Father Vader concept until the second draft of TESB. Evidence that also means Lucas wasn't being entirely facetious about the Father Vader idea being in place with the first film. The irony here is that in this particular instance, you appear to agree with zombie.


    Edit:

    Yes, on one particular point, he would be still concealing the truth, and with understandable motive at that. But as it stands now, he's concealing/dissembling the truth on many points/details, some of which the motivation for it seems obscure. In my alternate version, at least he would be telling the literal truth re: Vader killing Skywalker, although concealing the paternity issue. However, say, Ben perhaps didn't know the truth of Vader's fatherhood, then as I said, he would be telling the truth as he believed it to be.
     
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  12. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001

    That would make Ben (and Yoda) not just liars but downright manipulators. It's already disturbing they keep the truth from Luke all the while training him to kill his father. Now it would seem that Ben wasn't looking over Luke because he was his friend's son (whether the friend in question was a good guy or not) but because he wanted to use him: kill his own father to avenge Obi-Wan's friend. Sounds like something the Sith would do. Unless you suggest Luke's mother had an affair with Vader while married to Father's Skywalker? That would make for a fine telenovela, all right :)
     
  13. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Not for revenge. More like, Obi-Wan's friend was such a good guy to the point that Ben would prefer that he was Luke's father, over the man who was his actual father (who turned out to be a traitor). Of course, it would be a moot point had it turned out that Obi-Wan/Ben* simply didn't know that Vader, Ben's former student, was the real father. Then he'd be only be trying to get Luke to avenge both his father and his (Ben's) friend out of ignorance. Not much better, but not really any worse imo than the other version(s).

    *and later by extension,Yoda, and...maybe even the Emperor


    Well, Lucas did call it the 'Soap Opera of the Skywalker family' in Dec '75, after all. ;)
     
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  14. elfdart

    elfdart Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2001
    The most fatuous part of the book is the title. What exactly is so "secret" about interviews from Rolling Stone or People magazines?

    There's pretty good evidence that the Vader/Luke twist was in Lucas' mind for a long time, whether he wrote it down before 1978 or not.

    For filmmakers of Lucas' generation, one of the most influential films was The Searchers. One of the sub-plots in that movie is Ethan Edwards' relationship with Martin Pauley (a kid adopted by Ethan's brother) and Debbie Edwards, his niece. It's never made explicit, but it is hinted that Edwards is Pauley's biological father. It is claimed half-heartedly that Ethan found Pauley as an infant after a Comanche massacre. Yet Ethan brings the child to be raised by his brother and treats him throughout like a bastard son. He is so familiar with Pauley's mother that about 20 years after she was killed, he recognizes her braided hair among Scar's many scalps. It's pretty clear that even if Ethan wasn't Pauley's biological father, he knew (in the biblical sense of the word?) Mrs Pauley so well that he felt a degree of responsibility for her infant son -and Ethan isn't the soft-hearted sort.

    Ethan is almost certainly Debbie's biological father. He's still in love with her mother Martha (and she with him) even though she married his brother.



    John Wayne told interviewers that the director told him Ethan was Debbie's father, and to play the role accordingly.

    So at minimum, Ethan is a father figure, if not the biological father of Pauley and Debbie. Ethan is hell bent on hunting down Debbie for an "honor" killing Texas style, no matter what it takes, and Martin Pauley is going to try to save her, all the while resisting Ethan's more evil influence. Even the reason behind Ethan's descent to the dark side is the same as Vaders: his mother was murdered by "savages".

    It's pretty clear that the interaction between these two kids and their "father" is the basis for the relationship between Vader/Luke/Leia, only George Lucas spelled it out explicitly.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Really, there isn't any. It's mostly to catch one's attention in order to sell the book. But even then, zombie posits that Lucas lies and so there is a secret history based on other things that he never outright admitted to.
     
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