Dogs killed by terrorists - NOT for the faint hearted

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by obhavekenobi78, Aug 23, 2002.

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  1. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    By now, we have probably all seen or at the very least heard about the video tape being aired on CNN showing terrorists killing dogs to test their biological weapons. It made me sick to my stomach. Yet, I wonder how many of you know what goes on right under your noses. The following estimates are from the Humane Society of the United States:

    Number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year:
    8?10 million

    Number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year:
    4?5 million

    So, my question to you is, how does the actions taken by the terrorists in question compare to the situation in the United States? All opinions are welcome.
  2. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Okay first off there is a huge difference between a dog being given a lethal injection and death by nerve gas.

    "Blue death" as it is often refered to by vets, simply sends a dog to sleep and then shuts down the heart, brain and other vital organs. Apparently it is completely painless and hence the reason it is used.

    Nerve gas on the other hand kills the animal painfully and usually prolonged. The animal is fully concious during the episode.

    If, however, you are talking about the fact that people leave their dogs undesexed and then dump the puppies after their dog gets pregnant then that is another matter... [face_plain]

    Dogs are euthanaised simply because some people are irresponsible for their animal. They are euthanaised because they are dangerous, unwanted and quite often very sick. Many euthanaised animals end up in vet schools teaching young students how to help and treat sick animals.

    Terrorists on the other hand are obviously killing animals just because they want to test the gas they make. They are also doing it to inspire terror in other countries....

    To me they are two seperate issues completely.....

    Kit
  3. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    How many painless deaths does it take to equal one agonizing death Kit? Obviously, many of the animals (including dogs) in shelters suffer tremendously during the duration of their lives. Does lethal injection absolve us from wrong doing? Better yet, do you feel that the current situation here in the States is wrong?
  4. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    First off let me say that it is horrible and discussing that terrorists did something like that, don?t get me wrong, because what they did was wrong.

    But one thing that bothers me is any situation like this is that if a person was killed, in general, it would not get as much of a reaction, and that always confused me.

    Wouldn't killing a person be worse than killing a dog? Yes, both are wrong, I am not arguing that. But people will get more emotional and hateful if a dog is killed rather than a person.

    Long time ago, a computer called Wolfenstine 3d was made. You kill Natz's and other assorted enemies. One of those enemies was German Shepard?s, and if you didn?t want them to kill you, you had to kill them. It was just a game, but by far, many more letters were written about killing the dogs than anything else bad in the game.

    So why do people put the live of a dog above that of a human? Is it that humans may or may not have led a good life? One is innocent, the other is questionable? Is the dog cuter? Why?
  5. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    A humans life IS worth more than that of an animal. If you would really like to know, billions of animals are killed every year in the United States. How many did you hear about?
  6. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    That was not my point; my point was that people will get more emotional over an animal dying than a human for some reason. They can read the news paper, and glance over the obituaries or reports of murders, but when a dog is killed in such a fashion, people get emotional, and it bugs me since I can?t think of a respectful reason why.
  7. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    EnforcerSG,

    Of course, most sane people value human life and are saddened by death. I think the sympathy that is generated for an animal is similar to that which you see for children or infants. They are helpless. Dogs can bite and children can lash out, but when it comes down to it, they are indeed, helpless.
  8. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    And what about lab testing? I suppose all those protesters would rather that disease research and so forth was done on humans, huh?
  9. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Okay. I come from a vet background, both my parents are vets. I've seen some of the worst animal rights violations. I've heard about cases from my parents that violate many rights. I have also seen animals put down, and while it is unfortunate and heartbreaking it is also sometimes necessary.

    I also can't talk about what it is like in the US, but I can talk about what its like in Australia.

    It is deplorable. Simply because animals have to be put down because some people can't take the time and effort to look after them properly. Some people can't seem to get the idea into their heads that their dog or cat MUST be desexed. That is what is deplorable and the stuff that gets me riled up...the Human stupidity which means that euthanasia has to happen in the first place.

    On the other hand, if you are asking me if I believe that animals have to be euthanased if the case demands it then I say yes. If it has to happen, then it has to happen and that is the only thing about it. The difference between the terrorists and the Vets is that the terrorists are going out of their way to painfully kill an animal for no real purpose. Vets are just doing their job because other people are stupid.

    Having said all this, I am still a little unclear as to what you are having such a problem with. Is it the fact that dogs are dying or the fact that they have to end up in pounds in the first place????

    Kit
  10. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Lieutenant,

    This wasn't meant to be an "Animal Rights" debate. However, if you follow the news, the US government is URGING animal testing facilities to change their ways and incoorporate new and better technologies that involve less animal testing. These tests are far more accurate and cheaper as well. Many of the large companies that are clinging to these testing methods due so only because it is relatively easy to "fudge" or skew the data using live animals, while in contrast, lab results using scientific experimentation poses a greater challenges in this respect.

    Truthfully, the large majority of animal testing is not for health reasons. It is to get approval for a new makeup or chemical cleaner. All of the chemicals involved in many of these items have been tested exhaustively and a simple labratory test to determine skin reactions can be done in a dish, not involving live beings.

  11. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    I can't believe this. You must be joking.

    The REAL significance of the videos is not that an animal died! It is that it is proof of development of dangerous weapons, and tests of those weapons on mammals. There is a visceral reaction against the act itself and the effects to the subject, but that's not the important bit.


    So, to answer your questions, the euthanasia of animals in shelters in the states is different because THEY ARE NOT TESTING AND DEVELOPING WEAPONS TO USE ON HUMANS AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just to make sure I am being clear: No one would care if the animals in the video were being killed for target practice using guns. But killing the animals by testing the effects of bombs or chemicals is noteworthy because it speaks to what the perpetrators will do with that knowledge, and the commitment of resources involved that they would test on mammals.



    EDIT: To make this discussion one about testing on animals vs. human safety, you should restart the thread. It has little to do with your initial premise, or terrorism, for that matter.
  12. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Kit,

    Good Post. I have two issues. One being, as you have stated, the inept and irresponsible nature in which pet owners go about their duties in regard to "companion" animals. You are dead on when speaking of desexing, but there is also the issue of "Puppy Mills" and lack of adoptions. The other issue I am speaking to is the media coverage that a terrorist can drum up over a few dogs (not that they are to be taken lightly) when, here in the states, we have millions of animals being mistreated, or at the very least, abandoned to die.

    Red Seven,

    It was not my intention for the debate to turn this way. That doen't mean I should control it, people have the right to debate which points they choose to. As far as your point about the video showing that Bio-wepaons are being developed to use on Humans, what is the neccessity in showing the actual video footage as opposed to merely reporting the facts? It could have easily been reported without the showing of the film, right?

    Another point, if you have a talk radio station in your area that discussed political/social issues I think you will find that the avenue that I chose to discuss is also being discussed by other parties.
  13. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    Yeah, but as Red-7 clearly stated, the dogs are not the conceren here, it's the stuff being used to kill them.

    The terrorists killing dogs with nerve gas shows that they have it, so the next time you step in a subway somewhere you might be in for a nasty surprise.

    Well the news media wants viewers, so what better than to actually show the dirty deed rather than just speak of it. Are you saying that they did it just to elicit an emotional response against the terrorists?
  14. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    You are dead on when speaking of desexing, but there is also the issue of "Puppy Mills" and lack of adoptions.

    We don't have Puppy Mills in Australia. Or at least not that I have heard of. We do have breeders who push their dogs to the limit, but they are generally looked down upon.

    As for violence and mistrust, that is a purely human/owner conception problem. People believe that they have a "God given" right to do what they like with "Their" animal and so help anyone who gets in their way. It is the human fault there, but nothing can really be done about it. In life you get morons and those morons will (most of the time) be morons for ever and ever. However, public campaigns and teaching kids correct behaviour is what should happen.

    Back to the topic, I do believe Red-Seven has a point. It is the mere fact that they have a gas weapon that is scary, and what is stiring the public up. The dog is a secondary issue. It is all about causing terrorism and they have done exactly that by making people afraid again.

    Kit
  15. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    By the way, the public has known about the terrorists capability of biological weapons since shorty after the tradgic events in September. Not only Anthrax, but other agents as well as "dirty" bombs. All were given serious media attention, but my point is that CNN chose to run the video clip of the dog being gassed seemingly every 15 minutes. Why? Don't tell me it's because of the human fear factor involved. They are doing it because the video is shocking and grabs viewers attention. Otherwise, as I stated before, they could have shown it a few times and then resorted to reporting the facts verbally.

    Excerpts from this article.

    "This is interesting, but nothing we didn't already know," officials said after videotapes surfaced that show Al Qaeda in Afghanistan demonstrating bomb-making and poison gas experiments.

    Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the White House's Office of Homeland Security, said the tapes "are consistent with our previous information that [Al Qaeda leaders] would use chemical weapons if they're able to obtain them." He said there was still no credible information that the group had been successful in its effort to obtain weapons of mass destruction.



  16. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    All true.

    As I said, there is an immediate, visceral reaction. That may be why CNN keeps showing it, or radio listeners talk about it, but the overwhelming importance is that this is a clear, vivid reminder of the capability. Seeing the weapons demonstrated, whether on rats, cows, dogs or children just deliver a more lasting impression on people.

    That said, I DO NOT think people are upset about this because it represents animal cruelty or because it is right or wrong to kill or euthanize dogs and cats. And, if they are, then I think they are stupid, frankly.
  17. phantom31415 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 1
    The death of animals is a sad but unavoidable fact. It's either euthanize them or set them free to die of starvation in the wild or beneath the tires of a truck.

    But at least we try to save them with adoption. At least we kill them humanely. At least we don't use them as practice to inflict horrible deaths on innocent citizens.
  18. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    The difference between them is the intent, not the how. It is a tragedy that any animal has to be killed. But if we are going to cry over spilt milk, then lets talk about how animals are killed so that you can put roast beef in your sub-sandwich or cook that big juicy thick steak well done. Eh? eh?

    Don't want to talk about it do you? Why? Is it because it will put you on the spot light too? Oh dear... [face_devil]

    Shelters have no choice but to put these animals down because of overpopulation and due to the fact that people are irresponsible. Shelters can put them down the painless way or the painful way, its your choice. But they choose the painless way because its not only faster, less costly, and painless, but more humane. Some people who work at these shelters do get emotional when they have to do this. Some vets also get emotional when they have to do this. So don't think that ever person who works at a shelter or is a vet is heartless and inhumane.

    Animals go to shelters for several reasons: 1) adoption, 2) to keep them off the streets and from harming people and themselves. Would you rather have the dog or cat become roadkill? Believe me that is more sickening than being put down or tested on. Listening and hearing a dog or cat cry in misery and pain because of some stupid carless motorist or stupid careless petowner can be sickening to the stomach. 3) To contorl the animal population. More animals die on the streets everyday than they do when put down by vets or shelters. They die either from disease, starvation, become roadkill, or heartless teenagers decide its fun to beat up an animal with a bat. (Which does and has happened)

    Terrorists, on the other hand, test their nerve gas on animals so that they can later harm humans. They are heartless when they commit this atrocity and don't care whether the animal is in pain or not. To them, they are nothing but guinea pigs. All the more reason why these men and women should be hunted down and either destroyed or imprisoned.

    Companies that test their products on animals does not just happen in the United States. It happens in Europe and Asia as well. Humane Societies are trying to get these companies to stop doing this, but it is a losing battle. But their intent is not to destroy people like the terrorists. Am I saying this is right? No I'm not. My family are strong opposers of anyone that harms animals for ill-will or experimentation.

    Theres the difference between what the terrorists do and what non-terrorists do.
  19. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    The terrorists killing dogs with nerve gas shows that they have it, so the next time you step in a subway somewhere you might be in for a nasty surprise.

    I heard a report that they did test it on a single man. They exposed him to the gas and then followed him around to see when he died. I'll try to find a link or some more information (Or prove myself wrong if I got my fact mixed up)

  20. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    "The difference between them is the intent, not the how. It is a tragedy that any animal has to be killed. But if we are going to cry over spilt milk, then lets talk about how animals are killed so that you can put roast beef in your sub-sandwich or cook that big juicy thick steak well done. Eh? eh?

    Don't want to talk about it do you? Why? Is it because it will put you on the spot light too? Oh dear..."


    Would you be as condecending if I informed you that I was a vegetarian? Eh? eh?
  21. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    I wasn't pointing specifically at you. If I was, I'd put your name in there somewhere.
  22. Inari_Icewalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 2
    I'm also a vegetarian (for the last 14 years), and any form of animal cruelty, abuse, exterination, and maltreatment bothers me. Greatly. This country isn't blameless, either, and we shouldn't try to act is if we were.

    But people will get more emotional and hateful if a dog is killed rather than a person.

    I'll tell you why: Because animals are utterly defenseless in the social sense; they have no rights in our society but those few we grant, and then, only as our "possessions." Some of us find that deplorable and despicable.

    It sickens me that, in a conflict wherein humans show their most vile, hateful and irrational behaviors, they have now chosen to include animal victims to torment and execute as well. How pathetic.

    We are fine toolmakers, but we are still socially, emotionally, and psychological in the infancy of our evolution.

    Shudders at the thought.

    That said, I DO NOT think people are upset about this because it represents animal cruelty or because it is right or wrong to kill or euthanize dogs and cats. And, if they are, then I think they are stupid, frankly.

    No, Red-Seven, I think you're the stupid one here, stupid and insensitive. If you can watch that and not feel queasy and have any compassion for another creature, then you truly are a hopeless case.
  23. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    No, mu name wasn't in there, I assumed you were using the term, "you" to direct the question at all of us. Was I wrong in that assumption? If so, perhaps you can clarify for me.
  24. Devilanse Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 5
    Who cares about the dog?????


    The more important matter is...

    Will these noxious chemicals make it over here and be used on children???

    To heck with the dog. Its dead..its problems are over...ours haven't begun yet.



    *no, Im not a cold hearted son of a b...., some low-life fed my cat anti-freeze. I had to watch as he suffered while the vets ran tests...and then he had to be put to sleep. The bottom line is, will these weapons be used against the people of the U.S. or Israel? The next video you see could be a American child succumbing to the chemical weapon*
  25. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    The problem is that people feel more about the death of a dog than they would of the avrage joe shmo. It is almost as if on some level, it is ok that people die, but not animals. Look at the title of the thread. It was not 'Dog dies in terrorist test of chemical weapon', it was simply Dog killed by terrorist, as if the fact that the dog died was the most important thing (the second half of the title does not help either). Yes, animals may be more innocent, but too many people rate animals above humans.

    Several of you have said that in todays society, animals cannot defend themselves, and that makes us pity them more. That may be a good explnation to me, but I still ask if that is why many people I have seen feel more for a mut rather than a person.
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