Dont call him Vader yet

I think Anakin was given the name Vader to soon in the movie. Yeah Anakin killed Mace and he knew he had to kill the rest of the Jedi or else they will come hunting for him and the emperor for killing Mace and all that other stuff.

But I think thats it. I think the emperor should of just given Anakin the mission to destroy the Jedi to 'protect' himself. Anakin KNEW he had to attack or they'll come after him. There is no need to be a SITH at this point. Anakin doesn't have to be given a sith name and turn to the dark side. In Anakins mind he should be turning to the dark side so soon.

In order for him to be given a sith name anakin KNOWS he's joined the dark side. I think it would be better for Anakin to just DO these bad things (go to Jedi temple and kill Jedi) for HIS own gain, so the Jedi wouldn't kill him first.

I think at the end when Anakin is in the suit, I think that would of been the perfect time to call him Vader.

I just didn't like that Anakin BECAME a Sith right after Mace. I think Anakin should of just been going down the dark path without him thinking about it. In his mind he'd kill the Jedi because he knows they are trying to take over the senate and that the jedi will kill him because he kill Mace.

It'd be better for Anakin to think of himself as a rogue Jedi or the ONLY Jedi trying to fix things, but this 'fixing' is leading him straight to doing dark deeds.

Plus it sounds weird when the federation guys call anakin "Lord Vader". Vader is the man in the suit. I see Vader and (Jedi)Anakin as two different people. I would love it if it was that obvious. That when Anakin TRULY is a sith THATS when he has a SITH.

When he fights obi wan he disagrees with Obi wan and the Jedi. Anakin wants peace for the galaxy but is going about it the wrong way. He's TRYING to do good but again he's going about it the wrong way. BUT by Anakin already given a sith name and giving full allegence to the Emperor, Anakin KNOWS that he's joined THE DARK SIDE. Dark side=bad.

 

Anakin knows he has turned. Palpatine made him a Sith like he did, because it is the only way to ensure that there are two Sith at a time. He's gone long enough without an Apprentice and now he has to make this so. And Anakin is told that in order to recieve his knowledge, he has to become a Sith and embrace the dark side. He is tricked into thinking it is his only option, but he has to be willing to do it on his own. The suit is just a suit. Vader is who Anakin is at his core being and who he would've been without it.

 

Palpatine had to make sure that Anakin knew in his head that he was comitted. There are two Sith, and he is one of them. He is no longer Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker....he is Sith Lord Darth Vader. Anakin was wavering a little after assiting Mace through the Windu. He just betrayed all of his Jedi friends and was basically feeling a little screwed over by his Chancellor friend. Palpatine basically said "Here Anakin, we are a perfect little team that is going to bring peace to the galaxy. I always told you we were friends. I was the one that got you to be on the Jedi Council, but now I grant you a greater honor. Take a place at my side as a Sith Lord!"

If Palpatine would have been like "You havn't proven anything to me yet! You have to do all this crap and maybe I'll let you be a Sith after that" who knows what crazy stuff Anakin would have done. He needed to feel accepted by someone....told he was doing the right thing. Besides, he did some of his most Sithly things before the Suit went on. He was just as evil without the black shell.

Carnage

 

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU@!! That would have been awesome. I think it was super stupid that they made him vader right after killing Mace. I don't think they should have made him kill the kids though. I wanted to see Anakin kill off the other jedi not just watch the 501st blow em away. I was so dissapointed when all we got to see was Anakin slaughter children and get melted on Mustafar by Obi Wan who I think we can all agree is the true Jedi master and was always more powerful than Anakin in the movies, but it shouldn't have been that way! Which was SO dissapointing. Anakin had a lot of midiclorients that he wasn't using or something in the third movie because he came off way too weak. He's more powerful in the game Battlefront II than in the movie. I was extremely dissapointed in episode three only because he came off as such a weak punk. I would have been much more satisfied to see him slaughter four or five battle hardened jedi in his path like the emporer did. That would have been cool.

 

And what we have here, is a fanboi. Where do you see Anakin being weak? He was on par with a Jedi Master in Force powers while being just a Knight. That in itself speaks volumes about Anakin's powers. If Anakin Skywalker is a weak punk? Then Obi-Wan Kenobi is a weak punk. He lacked the control Obi-Wan had, he lacked the experiance. But Force Power wise? He was already on par with Kenobi as displayed by his ability to bring Kenobi's Force Push to a standstill. He countered it. No, he didn't counter it easily, he was struggling as much as Obi-Wan was. Which to me signals they're on par as far as Force Strength and Ability. Kenobi is a superior thinker, and swordsman. Plain and simple. Now, back on Topic: The moment Anakin Skywalker pledges himself to Sidious' teachings, the Force speaks to Sidious, then THROUGH Sidious, Anakin Skywalker is crowned Darth Vader. He doesn't fully become Vader until after he's learned Padme is dead.

 

Well, in the novel, Palpatine says to Anakin join me! Anakin is like i'm sorry sir but I just came here to save you, not betray my friends. Palpatine is like, what friends? then they talk a little more about him becoming a sith. It's ok either way to me. The movie makes perfect sense, Anakin just cut Mace's hand off. What else is going to happen? Palpatine knights him 'Vader'. Also, I think Palpatine loved that a Sith Lord was walking on the Jedi Temple. It was a slap in the face to the Jedi. Anakin being Anakin and going to the Temple wouldn't have made sense. Also, Palpatine executed Order 66, perhaps the 501st would have shot down Anakin if he had not taken the name 'Vader'.

 

Sidious needed the commitment from Anakin that he would always be on his side. Without Anakin pledging his allegiance to Sidious, Anakin ws still just a jedi that may or may not go back to the jedi.

Sidious knew that while anakin may still need experience and more training, he was also a man of his word and most loyal to his friends. Sidious, despite being a Sith Lord was still one of Anakin's most trusted friends, and from Anakin's point of view the only person that has not lied to him since he came to Coruscant.

 

I think that the other important part of this whole thing is that people DO associate Vader with the Human being that we saw as Anakin Skywalker. The whole point of the series (Feelings on it being portrayed well or not aside) was to show Good little Anakin eventually grow up to be child butchering Darth Vader. It is a lot easier to connect flesh and blood little Anakin to flesh and blood vader than it is to connect flesh and blood little Anakin to a black suit.

Remember, it was Darth Vader himself and not the black suit, that was evil.

Carnage

 

Yes.

The films explore the dichotomy between "good" and "evil" and how one can gradually transmutate into the other. Ergo, it makes more than a measure of sense that Anakin Skywalker's metamorphosis into Darth Vader and the Republic's metamorphosis into the Empire are intimately linked. In "Revenge of the Sith", both entities are reaching their apotheosis, so we get temporary periods where the final steps are in the process of being taken before the final forms are created. Seeing Anakin knighted as Vader and performing deeds without the armour, as his flesh and blood self, was one of the most surprising and compelling aspects of "Revenge of the Sith".

 

Palpatine annoints his new apprentice right off the bat for a number of reasons. One of these is psychological. When he tells Anakin that he is now Darth Vader, he's saying that Anakin, and the life he lived before is no more, there is no going back, you are now MINE. Nothing says this better than Vader's warning to Luke: "That name no longer has any meaning for me."

 

Yes, yes, yes! Good and evil are personal choices.

As noted above it is Anakin's choices that make him evil and not the armor and helmet. When Anakin unhands Windu out of a consuming fear of losing Padme, at that moment he chooses her over the Jedi and by default Palpatine over the Republic. But there is still elements of Anakin present within him. He is not fully Vader.

In the ROTJ novelization where force ghost Ben is talking with Luke on Dagobah after Yoda's death, Ben tells luke: "We fought...your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever---he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker." The movie abides by the novel version in the main, and the movie script and filmed dialog appear to indicate that Anakin was drifting in and out of Vader land before the duel.

One thing is clear -- Padme calls him Anakin, and he responds to her calling him that name as we see in this ROTS script dialog, which also switches between the terms 'Anakin' and 'Vader' during this scene:

A HOLOGRAM OF ANAKIN appears before PALPATINE in his office at the bottom of the Senate Arena.

DARTH VADER: The Separatists are taken care of, My Master.

DARTH SlDIOUS: It is finished, then. You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy. You have done well, Lord Vader.

DARTH VADER: Thank you, My Master.

194 INT. MUSTAFAR-COXFERENCE ROOM-DAY

A Hologram of Sidious speaks with Anakin in the Mustafar control room.

DARTH SlDIOUS: Send a message to the ships of the Trade Federation. Tell them the Separatist leaders have been wiped out. Grievous and Dooku have been destroyed. All droid units must shut down immediately.

DARTH VADER: Very good, My Lord.

ANAKIN sees Padme's ship arriving on the screen and goes out to meet her.

195 EXT. MUSTAFAR-LANDING PLATFORM-DAY

The sleek NABOO SKIFF lands on the Mustafar landing platform near Anakin's GREEN STARFIGHTER. ANAKIN runs up to the SKIFF as the ramp lowers. PADME runs to him.

ANAKIN: Padme, I saw your ship . . .

They embrace.

PADME: Oh, Anakin!

ANAKIN: It's all right, you're safe now. What are you doing out here?

We see that despite knowing Anakin was the Sith Lord Vader, Obi-Wan still calls him Anakin before the fateful fall into the pit and Anakin responds to that name without correcting his former Jedi master . . . .

OBI-WAN: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic ... to democracy.

ANAKIN: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.

OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

(ignites his lightsaber)

ANAKIN: You will try.

ANAKIN ignites his lightsaber.

and then later . . . .

ANAKIN: I hate you!

OBI-WAN: You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.

So it seems that despite all the evil done to this point in the film, Anakin still existed at certain points. His 'possession' was not total nor complete until after the immolation scene and 'entombment' in his armor. Vader as we know him would never have asked about Padme. When Sidious informs Anakin that Padme was dead by Anakin's own hand, we witness the death of Anakin Skywalker, we hear his woeful, dying cry of dispair. Only then is Darth Vader fully born.

 

I think that giving Anakin his Sith name worked for the following -

-It was another tool used by Sids to make sure Anakin stayed on the dark path. Letting him keep his "real" name would've been like an escape clause. Re-naming puts Anakin even more under Sids' influence, and emphasizes that the Emperor is now the most important person in Anakin's life, even above Padme; naming something (or someone) gives you ownership of it.

-By showing him as Vader before the suit, it helped re-enforce the idea that being Lord Vader wasn't about the suit; it was a matter of Anakin's soul, and how he sold it to Sids.

 

I dont know. I think its one thing for Anakin to do things that lead to the dark side, and another thing to accually do something knowing you are ON the dark side.

Like i wrote in my first post, wether Anakin was made a sith or not he would still have to kill the Jedi or else they'd go after him. Its either kill or be killed. (after he kill mace of course.)

Alot of people say Anakin turned to the dark side to fast, well I think this could of been one way to fix that. Make the Emperor still tell Anakin that he has to kill the Jedi.

Anakin thinks the Jedi are the bad guys now. He thinks the Jedi are trying to take over the senate. Anakin thinks they need to be stopped. So let Anakin do these dark deeds on his own. No need to be declared a Sith. Anakin knows the Sith are bad, but at the end of the movie when everything has gone to h#ll for anakin only then would he realise he has no place to go. Only then would he fully give himself to the dark side.

But before then Anakin wasn't loyal to the Jedi or the Sith. He even told Padme that he could destroy the emperor and be the ruler of the galaxy. Anakin doesn't want to be a sith nor a jedi. He just wants to bring peace to the galaxy and live with his wife.

When the Jedi betray him (from his point of view) and when his wife dies THEN Anakin is lost. He only has the Emperor at that point. THEN he could give himself to him. (beside at that point the Emperor saved his life)

When Ben Kenobi says "Anakin was suduced by the dark side of the force" i just think of it that slowly and slowly it snuck up on him. Anakin was always trying to do the right thing but in the wrong way.

But trust me I LOVE episode 3. Thats my favorite one of the saga, if not my favorite movie of all time. I just wonder if it might of been better if Anakin wasn't call Vader (or more importantly wasn't call a Sith) until later in the movie.

 

JMasterLuke said:

I just wonder if it might of been better if Anakin wasn't call Vader (or more importantly wasn't call a Sith) until later in the movie.

Just as force ghost Obi-Wan told young Skywalker in the ROTJ novelization scene that I quoted above. Why, why must GL create these annoying plot holes? We can plainly see the confusion in the ROTS script as Anakin is switched back and forth between Vader and Anakin in the character dialog identifiers. Yoda tells Obi-Wan that Anakin is consumed by Darth Vader, while Obi-Wan and Padme both continue to call the new Sith 'Anakin,' and he responds to them without correction.

It is obvious that Anakin has not completely let go of himself by the time Padme and Obi-Wan arrive on Mustafar. In his solo scene immediately after eliminating the Trade Federation faction, we see tears running down his cheeks as he stands on the balcony overlooking the lava streams. TEARS! Do Sith cry?

GL is schizo here, seeminly unable to decide if Anakin is Vader or still Anakin. So it seems the tale force ghost Ben tells Luke on Dagobah is by and large true. Anakin is mostly Vader when Obi-Wan sends him into the molten pit.

And the birth of the twins obviously parallels the operating room 'birth of Vader' scene. But I believe Vader is only truly born when Anakin learns of Padme's death at his own hand. The infamous 'nooooo' is Anakin's death cry. Vader is all that is left -- fried Spam in a can.

Still, when all is said and done, I liked ROTS as well. It is my 2nd favorite film in the entire saga -- I place TESB first (ANH is 3rd).

 

Padme calls him Anakin, because she a) doesn't know that he is Darth Vader now and b) she wouldn't call him Vader. She didn't marry Darth Vader, she married Anakin Skywalker. She is pleading with her husband, not a Sith Lord. Just as Luke called his Vader his father, acknowledging the aspect of who he is at his core. Obi-wan calls him Anakin, because he doesn't believe that he is consummed by Vader as Yoda and Palpatine do. To him, he is still Anakin Skywalker, his brother. It isn't until they meet again that he calls him Vader, because by then, he no longer believes that Anakin exists. Palpatine only calls him Anakin, because he's shocked by the sight of a burnt man who is clingling to life.

As to the script, he goes back in forth in description because on screen, Hayden looks like Anakin and not Vader. Once the suit goes on, he is described as Vader. In ROTJ, once the helmet comes off, he's refered to as Anakin. Lucas isn't schizo here.

 

Only in the script. This does not happen in the film.

 

Yeah i was gonna say "I dont remember the emperor calling him Anakin at the end"

 

Good thread, many excellent points. For some reason I feel I have to add something. -If- I had an opportunity to re envision (everything from the jedi leaving to apprehend Palpatine) these sequences, I would have had Windu lose outright to Palpatine, perhaps distracted by Anakin's entrance on the scene. Anakin would then witness Palpatine's power as a Sith Lord and perhaps even finally clue in to the fact that Palpatine had orchestrated the whole war and the assassination attempts on Padme. Then a battle between Anakin and Palpatine would ensue all the while Palpatine attempting to sway Anakin to the Dark Side. The battle would end off with Anakin falling to force lightning which Palpatine pours on a little too much (cause he'd have to) causing some of the damage towards Anakin's later necessity to have to wear the suit (but not outright). Perhaps then he would need a breathing apparatus to help sustain his breathing, maybe even the voice modulator due to the damage by the force lightning, either way I always envisioned a sort of "crowning" of Vader's helmet by Palpatine himself (say Palpatine had some relic Sith armor to give him). This would come after Palpatine gives Anakin the choice to either join him or to die, and have Padme join him in his fate, at this point Anakin is swayed to the dark side. Then everything would continue from the attack on the Jedi temple (where I agree Anakin should have been killing full fledged Jedi, not younglings.)

 

Yoda calls him Vader and states Anakin is gone. He tells Obi-Wan he must kill him. Yoda never uses the name Anakin again after the holo-scene in the Temple.

Yoda tells Palpsidous he places too much faith in his new apprentice after the Emperor tells the little green one that Vader will be most uber powerful.

The fact remains that Vaderkin responds to the name Anakin to anyone who calls him by that name. He does not stop and say "that name no longer has any meaning for me." instead he readily engages those who call him Anakin. He is still on the edge -- still the 9 year old we knew in TPM but succumbing to the monsterous entity that consumed him on Tatooine when he slew the Sand People or in the Jedi Temple when he offed the Younglings.

The dude never says: "Hey, Padme and Obi-Wan -- didn't you read the script? I'm supposed to be Darth Vader now!"

Even in the horrific moments after the immolation Obi-Wan still calls his doomed former apprentice Anakin! While he acknowledges that Anakin is now a Sith, he never calls him by his Sith name (edit: "to his face) until he meets him in ANH on the DS.

So just exactly where is this newly initiated Sith Lord Darth Vader after the Temple slaughter? He is not yet fully realized. He is very wishy washy. Only when the man once called Anakin learns of his beloved Padme's death at his own hand is Darth Vader truly born. Then, and only then.

 

Yes, but Vader did these things - killing Jedi at the Temple and the Trade Ferderation on Mustafar after he pledged himself to Sids, however reluctently or unwillingly. The actions after his turn cemented the Sith mantle, making Anakin's re-emergence more and more unlikely.

And Sids could've just had the 501st go in to the Temple after Vader gave them the access codes. But having the Chosen One destroy the Jedi was an essential part of how the Emperor bound Anakin even more tightly to his new identity.

 

I just find it interesting that it takes years to become a Jedi Knight and then master. But you can become a Sith Lord in oh, about 45 seconds.

The whole ?indoctrination? of Lord Vader just lacked any creativity or thought. It was just ?okay, you?re a Sith now.? It leaves you feeling ?that?s it???

I agree with the suggestion of naming him once he has been rebuilt. If it was all Vader doing those killings before the final duel, why was Vader shedding a tear on Mustafar?? Either his contact lenses were bothering him or he?s a rather wussy Sith.

 

I know this. But others have been using the script here.

Vader was crying because he knows he shouldn't be doing this, but he cannot stop himself. He hates what he has done, but he cannot bring himself to say stop. It's like an addict. They know they need to stop, but they cannot bring themselves to do so. He wants this and at the same time, he doesn't. Dooku wanted this and thus he had no regrets. Anakin didn't, but couldn't deal with the alternitive.

As to the differences in time, this is another sign of the differences between the two orders. The Jedi believe in taking the long way, whereas for the Sith it is the quick and easy way. Also, there's 10,000 Jedi at a crack. The Sith only have two members, so as such, he is a Sith Lord. They don't use the term "Padawan". One Sith is the Master and one is the Apprentice, but both are Sith Lords. When Maul was a boy, he was a Sith Lord even before he had completed his training.

 

Way back in 1980, Yoda informed Luke that the Dark Side was quicker, more seductive. This is a perfect illustration of that. He is immediately given a Sith title and an ego boost, something the more controlled and mature Jedi council would only bestow after years of hard work and loyalty.

The notion that he needs a suit to be Vader is quite frankly ridiculous. A person's character is defined by his deeds, and the content of his heart, not his fashion. Vader was born of the darkness inside of young Skywalker. He was Vader the moment he sliced off Windu's hand.

Or maybe he's still a human being with emotions, who knows killing is wrong. Palpatine doesn't have such reservations because Palpatine is a lie...his true identity is Darth Sidious. He was Darth Sidious long before being "Chancellor Palpatine" and eventually "Emperor." It's who he is. He's basically a personification of evil. Anakin, on the other hand, was Anakin first, and a Sith Lord secondly, much like Dooku, so he at this point is still more Anakin than Vader, but still with the title and a heart full of untamed evil.

 

Vader is crying for the very reason that Luke Skywalker has suggested, that he is in conflict with himself. His good side is telling him that he's doing wrong and will suffer the wrath of whomever Jedi survivor that comes after him but his bad side says that he must do whatever it takes in order for PalpSidious to teach him how to access this holy grail-type of power that can save Padme's life. Another thing, Anakin didn't become a Sith Lord in 45 seconds, he was already a Sith lord from the moment he murdered Dooku but he didn't accept it until after he realise that he helped Sidious kill Mace Windu. From that point on, Anakin sees that he could never go back to the Jedi Temple without them sensing that he helped a Sith Lord kill the entire Mace Windu posse which will cause them to attack Anakin instantly which is the whole point of why Anakin was given the name of Darth Vader.

 

I like the Idea were he gets knighted Vader before the suit, but I hated the fact that Anakin turned to the Darkside too soon.