PT Dooku+Grevious=Vader?

I know the PT (Particularly ROTS) gets a lot of hate for having to many villains, but I feel like stating something that has occurred to me for quite some time. IMO if you look into the deeper themes behind Dooku and Grevious you will notice that Vader has many traits of both these characters.

Obviously with Grevious the first thing you make connection to is that he is a cyborg like Vader, he is also supreme commander of the separatist military in the field, as was Vader to the Imperial military. I also like when Grevious bows to sidious's hologram in ROTS like Vader does in ESB. This really makes me upset that they left out the scenes that appeared in the novelization of Grevious killing Neimodian officers on his flagship invisible Hand during to opening scene of ROTS. To me that draws a great parallel to Vader killing the Imperial Officers on the Executor during ESB.

Now lets look at Dooku, both Vader and Dooku were fallen jedi, both were encouraged to be killed by a younger apprentice. (Anakin for Dooku) (Luke for Vader) Vader and Dooku were both wise, calculating figures. Both were played by Sidious using an emotional attachment to someone Qui Gon's death for Dooku, fear of Padme's death for Vader.

Imo the thematic meanings behind Grevious and Dooku are well worth having them, despite naysayers claiming that the PT has "too many villians" or that "MAUL SHOULD HAVE BEEN TEH ONLY VILLIAN!!1!111!!!111"

What do you all think?

 

I agree.

Dooku and Grievous are very underrated, IMO.

 

I wish they both would have been in episode 2 more because then they would't feel "thrown in" like they do if you haven't seen other Star Wars media with them in it.

 

Indeed, but what makes you think this was a good idea ? I mean it is not something new, they were just a cheap copy of an iconic character.

 

I'm just putting my input in. (also my last line wasn't intended to dis Maul)

 

Precisely, I forgot to mention Maul too, he represents the pure evil and raw anger.

 

In ROTS, when Palpatine tells Anakin reconnaissance units have located Grievous on Utapau, Anakin says, "We'll finally be able to capture that monster and end this war."

I always liked the irony of that line because he would become a cyborg as well.

 

Cool beans, sarlaccsaurs-rex! Never noticed the Grievous / Vader similarities other than the obvious cyborg one.

I think Dooku's a bit more idealistic than Vader but they do have the similarities you pointed out.

 

Nah, Maul's design had nothing to do with Vader. You can say Grievous was a cyborg who wields a lightsaber and general of an army, enemy of the Jedi, and Dooku was a fallen Jedi and has a relationship with Qui-Gon Jinn just like Anakin, but there isn't a single similarity between Vader and Maul, being evil isn't the necessary similarity you're looking for.

 

Agreed on the general topic, Vader is basically made up of all the lower villains in the PT. Besides that he also mimics a lot of Palpatine's dialogue in AOTC and ROTS, so you can see that influence developing on him.



Some visual parallels cos I just love posting them...


Maul/Vader


After Separatists' deaths












(Maul approaching Tattooine)

(Vader approaching Mustafar)
















Maul/Dooku/Vader
















Grievous / Vader

 

He's not talking about design, he's talking about character/role.

 

Interesting
Let's not forget that Vader is graceful and elegant just like Dooku

 

A few more.

(Erkan12 - I personally think the mirrored shots between Anakin and Maul indicate Lucas was feeling Anakin on selling his soul moved closer to the primal being Maul was.)

Dooku / Vader














Maul / Vader


(Destroying panel to open door)

 

Last post, some more Dooku stuff.































Dooku powers

Vader powers







A saber-lock concludes a duel between Obi-Wan and each of three Sith apprentices of the PT:

Maul overpowers him and knocks him part way down a shaft

Dooku overpowers him and incapacitates Obi-Wan

Before Vader has a chance to overpower him, Obi-Wan jumps to higher ground hoping it will end the fight. Obi-Wan's experience and Vader's arrogance really win the fight for him here

 

Character is the same too, Maul is a pure dark sider, while Vader was a Jedi once just like Dooku was. Vader and Dooku aren't wild as Maul is, as far as I see, they aren't even pure evil as Maul and Sidious either.

 

Dooku and Vader may have started out with noble intentions that Maul and Sidious never shared.
But by ROTS (going by the novelisation) Dooku is pretty empty, eager to oppress alien life-forms under a solely human Empire, just because he despises them personally.

And by the end of ROTS, there is nothing of Anakin left in Vader. He's evil.

 

I think that they all represent different aspects of Darth Vader.

Maul was a representation of Vader as a ruthless Sith subservient. Dooku represented Anakin's future fall from Grace as a Jedi, and Grievous represented Anakin's future as a cyborg, a being more machine than man.

Where's Cryogenic when you need him?

 

Awesome HevyDevy ! Thanks for the images, this is exactly what I am talking about!

Unlike many, I actually enjoy a lot of the mirroring aspects of the PT!

Also TheAvengerButton I agree want to hear Cryogenic 's input!

 

Even in RotS, Padme says this to Obi-Wan ; ''There is still good in him...'' so no, there was always good in Vader, not only special to RotJ.

 

Maul is the obedient and efficient Sith apprentice, completely dedicated to their cause. That's part of Vader as well.

 

Grievous was just tragically under-developed, killed off 20 minutes after we'd seen him, we have no idea who he is or what he's about. I'm still not really sure if he's supposed to be considered a Sith or not, and how did he become a cyborg? I supposed the novels would answer all this but I don't want that, I just want to watch the movies. And his ship, I didin't know until just now that it was called Invisible Hand. Obviously a reference to Adam Smith's writings on capitalism... was this name ever spoken in ep III, and I missed it maybe? I've only seen the movies twice. It could carry significant political commentary, but again, not developed at all.

As I posted in another thread, I think Grievous' only real purpose is as a foil/metaphor/foreshadowing of Vader (not sure what the right literary word here is).... Obi-Wan walks away from the burning body of Grievous and later walks away from the burning body of Anakin, one was too evil to be saved and the other was not, Obi-Wan cuts off some of Grievous' limbs and some of Anakin's... all he is, really, is just a snippet of what we're going to see in the next hour or so of film. Artistically it's well-done, but for story-telling, I agree he's kind of useless.