Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Dark Lord Karno Dal, Mar 31, 2005.

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  1. Dark Lord Karno Dal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 1
    I think Lucas missed an oportunity by not having Count Dooku as part of the Jedi Council in Episode I. I know GL hadn't invisioned Dooku's character at that time, which is really unfortunate because his presence on the council would have helped to strengthen the films.

    I imagine Dooku on the council in TPM actively taking up for Qui-Gon on having Anakin trained. Qui-Gon is Dooku's apprentice, so it makes sense that he would have supported him, plus it would have given us a hint of both Dooku's rebelliousness and of the beginnings of the cracks forming within the order. Perhaps after the council scene, we might have had a scene between Dooku, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan in which Dooku speaks of his growing disillusionment with the order and with the republic as a whole. More could have been made of this had Dooku joined the group in Palpatine's quarters when he speaks of how broken the republic is, which would have been the starting point for their future relationship. This would have helped to tie TPM into the following two chapters far more than it currently is.

    Finally, at the end of Episode I when it is revealed that Anakin will be trained, it would have been interesting if, following up on the above, Yoda had related that an insistent Dooku influenced the council to allow Obi-Wan to train Anakin, per Qui-Gon's dying wish. That would have set up some lovely undercurrents in AOTC when Obi-Wan an Anakin are called on to face Dooku. Both the duel at the end of the film and the scene where Dooku meets with the captured Obi-Wan would have an emotional subtext that was sorely missing, as Obi and Anakin have to wrestle with sympathies for the count that they developed due to his presence in their relationship as master and apprentice and with his involvement in the events of TPM.

    All of this would have made the prequels a bit richer and less disjointed, but alas it wasn't to be. I'm just curious as to what the rest of you might think about this?


    Thanks,

    DLKD-
    whostheBossk likes this.
  2. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    That's a bunch of nice ideas. No doubt, it would've been good. However, I have no problem with the way it is now. The focus of this trilogy lies on the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan(not so much in TPM, which is mostly introduction, but in the trilogy at large). Dooku's personal journey, including his relationships with other characters, is not important to the plot.
    As I said, though, it wouldn't hurt to have more of him.



    Relationships - there are many kinds
    /LM
  3. DeadDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 2
    he should have at least been at Qui Gons funeral
  4. Dark Lord Karno Dal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 1
    The focus of this trilogy lies on the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan(not so much in TPM, which is mostly introduction, but in the trilogy at large). Dooku's personal journey, including his relationships with other characters, is not important to the plot.


    I don't disagree at all, and my view on this has little to do with Dooku's journey as a character. Rather, I see giving him a role in TPM as an improvement in the cohesiveness of the overall story of the prequels. I think having him be an established character and someone somewhat close to two of the three main characters of the prequels (Obi-Wan and Anakin) would have provided more emotional intensity to his turn and how the Jedi, particularly those two, deal with it. His introduction in AOTC would have been far less "out of left field" had this been the case.

    Additionally, having him be partially responsible for Anakin's admission into the Jedi order and largely responsible for his being Obi-Wan's apprentice would have added to Anakin's journey as well I think, considering Dooku goes on to become a Sith, as does Anakin eventually. Having Anakin know first hand of Dooku's rebelliousness and disillusionment with the order (and considering Anakin's own opinions as stated in AOTC, his sympathy with those feelings as well) would also lend another layer of meaning to his eventual supplantment of Dooku as Sith Apprentice, as he would more literally be coming full circle in becoming that which he has destroyed.


    Thanks for the commnents,

    DLKD-
  5. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It's not easy to argue against you, Karno Dal :)
    However, I believe that having us know Dooku better and thereby create an emotional impact with his turn to the dark side would take away a bit from Anakin's turn. There's a point with keeping the villians of the PT as evil as possible. Of course, Lucas wanted to make a point with Dooku - that it is possible for a Jedi to turn to the dark side. I think he was wise, though, to not let us get too emotionally involved with the character.
    Since the villians(especially the Sith Lords) aren't much more than villians to the audience, it will be quite shocking to see Anakin, the main protagonist, become one of them. Had we known Dooku before he turned evil, while he was still a good guy, the dramatic impact of Anakin's turn would've been lessened.

    That's my view at least.



    Villians are evil
    /LM
  6. Dark Lord Karno Dal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 1
    It's not easy to argue against you, Karno Dal


    No easier a time than I'm having arguing with you Lars_Muul, I'd expect.

    But now to move past the love-in...;-)

    You make an excellent point about the danger of the audience becoming too emotionally involved with Dooku. However, the screentime he'd have gotten out of the scene suggestions I made would probably have totalled less than five minutes. I'm not sure that would have been a great danger, but you certainly do have a point.

    What I was getting at though was more of an emotional involvement for Anakin and Obi-Wan than for the audience. Obi-Wan would understand Dooku's point of view as it relates to Qui-Gon's from TPM and might be at least a little emotionally conflicted in having to face him. Anakin would have a deeper personal understanding of how his own opinions of dissent fall in line with Dooku's and would likely be even more conflicted, perhaps even seeing Dooku as a bit of a kindred spirit. I think this would have contributed both to the deepening of AOTC as a film and to Anakin's eventual decision to mirror Dooku's choice and join the Sith. I also think that might have helped the audience relate a bit better with Anakin, which is something that the OT had that seems to be missing from the prequels.

    Ah well, it's fun to speculate at least.


    DLKD-
  7. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Good ideas. Put him in.
  8. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    I say put him in. C3PO's in it. Why not Dooku?
  9. LazyDivey98 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    There was no seperatist movement in TPM. Dooku is the leader of said movement. It would not have made sense to include him.
  10. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    LazyDivey has a point. Just how would we include him? At that point, he's already left the Order, so he wouldn't show up for Qui Gon's funeral. However, he hasn't joined up with Sideous yet, and the Separatist movement hasn't begun to develop. As Dooku is primarily linked to those two events within Star Wars, I can't see how he could have fit into TPM without some really contrived storytelling.
  11. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    The reason Dooku is not in TPM is, in reality, because Lucas had not thought him up yet.

    A bit of planning ahead would have prevented issues like this.

  12. Jedi-Master_Sledge Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    Anyone else find it funny that this is the second box office smash trilogy to have Christophe lee in, yet for some reason, his Character should be in all 3 films, yet is only in 2 of them? Just a thought I had.

    Jedi-Master_Sledge
  13. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    The idea of "planning ahead" would not necessarily guarantee that GL would have thought up Dooku anyways. Any other fan-imaged changes that are, hypothetically, put in place would be met by further ones in a never-cycle of what-ifs.

    Thematically, Dooku's absence is that he left the Jedi before TPM or so, didn't attend Qui-Gon's funeral because the Jedi would be there (and he's a Sith-what does he really care now) and he would rather create a Separatist organization. Dooku's placement is fine.


    Ciou-See the Sig
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah. Besides, TPM is really only an introduction. It's in AOTC that things start to happen. Naturally, new characters will be introduced in that movie.

    You also forget one thing, guys: Darth Maul died in TPM. Sidious had to have a new apprentice in the next movie. So, Lucas simply had to come up a new character.



    Dooku is a well conceived villian
    /LM
  15. Darth_Ben73 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Absolutley.

    You could add an end scene between Dooku and Sidious
    have Sidious have Dooku order the clones as Sifo-Dyas.

    As far as Qui-Gon goes well???
  16. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Well, since GL is making SEs for all the movies, he can at least just insert Dooku for Qui Gon's funeral.

    But then there'd be a problem with the "A pity our paths have never crossed..." line that Dooku said in AOTC.

    *shrug*
  17. Kellson Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    They might not have spoken at the funeral...unlikely, but not impossible.

    Darth Maul was good enough for me in TPM, but having Dooku would be interesting.
  18. Hightower Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
  19. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I was actually thinking how much more depth it would have been had Dooku been in TPM in terms of Anakin, and how that plays out with them in AOTC and ROTS.

    What I am saying is that how excellent it would have been had Qui-Gon introduced Anakin to Dooku, and told him that was once his master that trained him.

    Then in TPM, rather than have Obi-Wan being tempted to join Dooku, how much more it would have been had this been Anakin, especially when Dooku talks about wishing Qui-Gon was there and needing his help, and Dooku telling him about Darth Sidious and that he must join him to help him join the Sith. And then think of how this would have played out when they battle near the end of the film

    This then would for me would have really added more to what takes place in ROTS when Dooku and Anakin battle once again. Then add all this to Anakin's relationship with Palpatine, and that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  20. Guy DuBlanc Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2000
    star 2
    I am torn at the idea of Dooku in TPM. Part of me loves it, since Dooku is such a great character, and the more the better. On the other hand, it takes away from the mysteriousness of him.

    I think that mystery was the key component to Dooku's character. (Remember AOTC's opening scroll describes him as "mysterious.") You're not supposed to know what Dooku is doing, not sure if he's good or bad. Not until the end lightsaber duel is it revealed that he's an enemy. (This gets forgotten upon subsequent viewings, when you know he's the villain right away.)

    Having Dooku in TPM takes away from the mystery factor. It would be clearer that he's an enemy of the Republic right at the beginning of AOTC.

    But I wonder if Lucas would have included Dooku in TPM if he had the character planned from the beginning ...
  21. Senator_Palpy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    "Anyone else find it funny that this is the second box office smash trilogy to have Christophe lee in, yet for some reason, his Character should be in all 3 films, yet is only in 2 of them? Just a thought I had."

    Actualy if you remember Saruman was put back in Return of the King in the Extended DVD.
  22. Darth_Zoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 4
    It would have given a nice little surprise for AotC. To see Dooko as a good guy,
    then be slandered by Padme for trying to kill her,
    then seeing that he actually was trying to kill her
    and on top of it all is a sith lord :eek:

    Maybe he can digitally add Dooko sitting in the chamber haha.
  23. Darth_Mangle Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2004
    star 4
    These are some good ideas, and make for great story telling and all but...

    I don't think Dooku was mean't to be fleshed out like that. Only given a slight background..more so than Maul.

    Because like Maul..he was just another stepping stone to get the ball rolling for the creation of the empire.
  24. Annadalla Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 1
    I think Dooku on the council would be awesome! LOL..that would've added an element of foreshadowing to the next movie if Dooku could've said something like "Anakin's journey into Jedi-hood would be a well remembered event in of the Jedi order..." or something to that effect.
  25. Kroll429 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 1
    Lack of Vision, Lucas has.
    whostheBossk likes this.
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