Dooku left the Jedi Order AFTER TPM

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by ROYCE_DARKLIGHTER, Jul 9, 2002.

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  1. Jedi_Master_Isaiah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 2
    Of course, Dooku left the Jedi Order after TPM. Good thinking. I think Sifo-Dyas was killed before TPM. It would make sense. We could say that when Anakin say no one could kill a Jedi, and Qui-Gon said he wished that were so, the Jedi Master could be thinking of Sifo-Dyas.

    I have always believed that Dooku was only using the name Sifo-Dyas. Jango said he was recuited by Darth Tyranus. That poves that he was using the name Sifo-Dyas in my opinion.

    When Darth Tyranus is talking to Obi-Wan, I thought he meant something different than what you were saying. I'm under the impression that he is loyal to Palpatine. Tyranus did say, "You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we can destroy the Sith!" That was just something to fool Obi-Wan for some covert reason. When Tyranus said, "He came to me for help, and told me everything," I thought he was referring to Darth Sidious aka Palpatine, not Nute Gunray. It would make sense to Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda after all to know that he was a Sith.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died before TPM. Dooku just used his name to order the clones and pin the blame for it on the Jedi. Dooku had no Jedi name, other than his birth name.

    No one was suspecting Dooku of being a Sith. Obi-wan knew something was right about him, but couldn't be sure of it. The only CIS members who know that Dooku is Tyranus and about Sidious, the Geonosians. Mainly Poggle the Lesser. Nute doesn't know as he's still ticked at Sidious for leaving him to hang at Naboo. That's why Nute came to Dooku about Sidious, in the first place.

    The rule of 2 plays into all things. Including looking for a new apprentices. Palpatine/Sidious didn't start looking until after Maul died. His death was unfortunate consequence of the Battle of Naboo.
  3. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    You still don't believe my last post?!!!

    Unfortunate. I believe that there were many conversations WITH VADER (the then current apprentice) about whether Luke "could be turned." Either Vader didn't know about GRAND RULE OF TWO, or it is obvious to the Sith that a new apprentice needed to be cultivated. Like Dooku was "cultivated."

    Why else would the Emperor say lines like...Good, cut down your father and join me.

    Or Vader say: he will join us or he will die.

    Can he be turned? etc. Etc....

    Nope. Dooku was the "apprentice in waiting" feeding info to Sidious (in fact he was the "traitor" you guys all seem to think Mace IS) before he left the order. After he left the order...he couldn't have crept back in to erase the files and order the clones.

    THINK guys! Think really hard! You're not thinking. Whether before or after TPM is irrelevant. The issue is whether he was there long enough to have ordered the clones and erased the archives. Think! And he wouldn't have done it except for Sidious - or upon Sidious' command. Sidious didn't look long for an apprentice.

  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Vader and Palpatine lines.

    Palpatine "There's a great disturbence in the Force."

    Vader: "I have felt it."

    Palpatine: "We have a new enemey. Luke Skywalker."

    Vader: "Yes, my master."

    Palpatine: "He could destroy us."

    Vader: "He is just a boy. Obi-wan can no longer help him."

    Palpatine: "The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

    This tells us that Luke must die, because he's a Jedi and can kill them.

    Vader: "If he could be turned, he would become a power ally."

    This tells us that he doesn't want to kill him. His only option of keeping his son alive, and to gain total control, is to invoke the rule of 2.

    Palpatine: "Yes. Yes. Can it be done?"

    Vader: "He will join us or die, Master."

    This says that Luke will become a Sith, or he will die. The rule of 2 is perserved. Next, we have Vader's proposal after the duel.

    Vader: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. You do not realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

    Luke: "I will never join you."

    Later.[/b]

    Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has forseen this. It is your destiny. Join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Join me, it is the only way."

    Vader is using the rule of two to gain Luke's trust, so that they can kill Palpatine and rule as both father & son and Master and Apprentice. Palpatine knows that Vader is trying to take him out, so that is why he tells Vader to bring Luke to him. He knows that he can turn Luke, better than Vader could. He's pitting the two of them against each other and seeing who's the stronger servent. But because Luke didn't kill Vader and threw his saber away, Palpatine had to kill Luke to preserve the Sith Empire.

    As to Dooku, he found Sidious out before quitting the Jedi Order. From the way the timetable is, Dooku met Sidious first. Then he erased Kamino, before telling the Council he was through with them.
  5. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, but throughout the rule of two thing in your quotes...you've pretty much proved my point that all three of them were jostling around: The two, and then the "turnable" third...This means that a third can be "in waiting" or "in progress" before one of the two is dead. Get my point.

    THanks for writing all that up though. :)
  6. Anna_kin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2001
    star 2
    Now I'm really confused. I could have sworn that either in the movie or in the AOTC novelization that it said something about Dooku leaving the Order 20 years before AOTC. Am I hallucinating?
  7. Charlie_Martel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2001
    star 4
    Orignally posted by Anna_kin:
    I could have sworn that either in the movie or in the AOTC novelization that it said something about Dooku leaving the Order 20 years before AOTC. Am I hallucinating?
    You're just a little mixed up. The novelization speaks of the Lost 20, the only 20 Jedi to have ever left the Jedi Order, and Dooku was one of them.

    I don't know why anyone would think Dooku left the Order before TPM. It makes zero senes.
  8. Anna_kin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2001
    star 2
    Thank you! I wondered where I got that...I think it WAS the Lost 20 thing and I just got it confused...
  9. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Ok, I'm a little confused about the lost 20. I know everything from everywhere, but it seems that so many have left the order so recently, and basically no-one could have anytime before that.

    In Jedi Apprentice, Obi Wan leaves the order. Dooku leaves the order. Xanatos leaves the order.

    Now, this next one dosn't count, but:
    Qui-Gon and his (girlfriend?) Tahl left the order briefly, but her death kept Qui Gon from informing the council.

    Now, I know that there are some of you anti-expanded universe, but I think it should count.

    This is what George Lucas said in the special introduction to Splinter of the Mind's Eye paperback:

    "It wasn't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the saga of Skywalkers and Jedi Kinghts unfolded, I began to see it as a take that could take at least nine films to tell-three trilogies-and I realized, in makin my way through the back story and after story, that was really setting out to write the middle story.

    After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story-however many films it took to tell-was only one of thousands that culd be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the saga. THis legacy began with Splinter of the Mind's Eye, published less than a year after the release of Star Wars. Written by Allen Dean Foster, a well known and talented science-fiction auther, Splinter was promoted as a "further adventure" of Luke Skywalker. It hit bookshelves just as I was preparing to write my own "further adventure" of Luke, in the form of a script titled The Empire strikes Back.

    It seems only fitting, after all these years, that Splinter would be republished just I prepare once again to write another further adventure set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."

    Well I take it that George dosn't mind the EU, and that it might as well count.

    All for now.

  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The eu is considered a parallel universe. Meaning they happen, but they mostly don't affect the films themselves. For Lucas, Boba Fett dies and that's it. For the eu, he got out of the Sarlacc.

    The Lost 20 are the Jedi who quit as they no longer liked the way things were going. Callista Ming's Master was one such Jedi, who formed his own ideals about how Jedi should be trained. That's one example. Xanatos and Aurra Sing were Padawans and thus failed to become Jedi Knights. They aren't counted as Lost 20. One fell to the dark side, the other became a bounty hunter.

    Luke isn't a Sith, until he's killed either one. He's a canidate for Sith, but is not one until the other is dead.

    I doubt that Sidious thought Maul was useless. He spent 25 years training him to become a Sith Lord. He wanted Maul to be where Dooku is now and where Vader is later on. But with Dooku, he was grooming Anakin to take his place. There, I believe in grooming a new apprentice. But not with Maul. He needed Dooku to lead the CIS and start the Clone Wars. His being a Jedi Master was just a bonus, that worked to his advantage. Anakin was important due to his power and anger. Luke became important as has he was almost as powerful as Vader, and was in good shape.
  11. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Thanks for the help, d-s

    Also, where did you get the info about Aurra Sing? I knew in the Youg Jedi CCG she had a lightsaber, but I didn't know why.

    Another thing is about keeping the lightsabers. Xanatos supposedly gave his lightsaber back, but then when Obi Wan going to Bandomeer after being sent to the Agri Corps early, why didn't he have to return his lightsaber?




  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Aurra's background comes from the comics. She was trained by the Dark Woman for a while, but quit.

    Xanatos built his own Lightsaber. He had quit the Jedi Order, when he fell. Obi-wan was reassigned and thus, could keep his Lightsaber.
  13. Rob_Baajakh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Well, I agree with he author's theory, however it is very possible that Palpatine/Sidious was in cahoots with Dooku during the events TPM. It's possible because Sidious broke the Sith rule of secrecy when he revealed thei existence to the Jedi, so it is logical to believe that Sidious had more than 2 Sith, however I don't think this is true, but it is still a possibility.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Sidious didn't break the rule. He was counting on Maul being able to take the Jedi. And as it so happens, works to his advantage. He's got the Jedi chasing at shadows, taking away from suspecting him. Thus leaving the door open to destory them, when the time comes.
  15. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    The rule is not a RULE in the sense that you guys are thinking. It's a principle. The principle is that the Sith will always destroy themselves and fight against each other until there are only 2, a master and an apprentice.

    It's not like the Emperor and Vader sat down together in ESB and said, "Hmmm, well if we turn Luke to the dark side, one of us will have to go. We don't want to violate the Sith rulebook, ya know." They were planning to turn Luke and then the THREE of them would coexist. Now, the "rule of two" principle tells us that eventually two of them will join together and kill the third, because the Sith are so greedy for power. And we can see this in the way the Emperor and Vader both try to convince Luke to kill off the other Sith.

    If the "rule of two" were a strict RULE the way you guys are thinking, then this line makes no sense:

    Vader: "If he could be turned, he would become a power ally."

    Palpatine: "Yes. Yes. Can it be done?"

    Vader: "He will join us or die, Master."

    Vader and the Emperor were clearly planning for there to be THREE Sith.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, it means that Luke will join the Sith, or die. If Luke will not become a Sith, then he will become a Jedi. And a Jedi must die, as they can kill the Sith. That's why Palpatine told Vader in the first place. He wanted Vader to kill Luke, before he could kill them. Vader cannot bring himself to kill his son, so he proposes that he turns Luke to the dark side. Knowing full well that the rule of 2 must come into play. Palpatine knows that will happen, so he lets Vader take his shot at it. He fails and so he demands the boy be brought to him. Vader has no choice but to do so.

    The rule of 2 was formed by Darth Bane, because all the other Sith fought amongest themseleves for top spot. This allowed the Jedi to take out the rest. That was why the rule was formed. To insure that there is at least one surviving Sith Lord to carry on that legacy. What Bane had never counted on was that one would turn back to the light side and destory the Sith, for the love of his son.
  17. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    You know, Sinister...Just read those lines by Vader and the Emperor Again and think really, really hard...Use common sense!!! The outcome of that conversation would be: 3 on the dark side. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

    I'm sure I'll get a response on this.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yes, once a upon a time it did look like that. But we now know that is not the case. Both men know of the deception by the other. It looks kinda off that Vader says that he will join them to make three, but later tells Luke that he wants him to help kill Palpatine, so that they can rule all.

    Rule of 2 was there, but it was sutble and Vader knew the rule. He also knew he couldn't hide his deception from Palpatine. Vader sees a chance to rule with his son. Palpatine sees a chance for a healther Skywalker to carry on as his apprenctice.
  19. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    You have been poisoned by the EU. That "Darth Bane created the rule of two" story is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Vader and the Emperor weren't abiding by ANY rules. In fact the Sith have no rules. They just use the force for their own personal gain, with no regard for morality, light vs. dark. Why would they follow a rule from 1000 years ago? That is typcial EU lameness.
  20. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Let me add something here in reference to something Vader said in ESB when speaking to the Emperor.

    Vader said to him, If he(Luke) could be turned to the dark side, he would make a powerful ally

    An ally is an associate, or one that has a connection to the primary or main group.

    So one could say that Vader was merely saying that though we are the Sith, rather than destroying Luke, we could cause him to be turned to the dark side and we have a dark side Force user to help our cause. Now of course this was not the case with Vader at all.

    Then in ROTJ, we hear the Emperor saying, that only together can they turn Luke to the dark side of the Force, and then later on he says, "Soon Skywalker will be one of us"!

    Before seeing TPM, we knew nothing of the Sith and there "rule of two". We did not even realize the relationship between Vader and the Emperor for the most part until ROTJ. We hear Vader in ESB talking of overthrowing the Emperor with Luke's help; then we hear talk as if Luke could actually become of them, but it is not until the end of ROTJ that we realize that the Emperor wanted to replace Vader.

    So what am I saying??

    It could be possible, though I doubt it in Dooku's case, that one could be an ally of the Sith order(the two) and not be a Sith. In Dooku's case, if it were possible, he could have been at first a Jedi that embraced the dark side and helped the Sith until Darth Maul was killed, then he became the apprentice.

    Emperor=Palpatine

    Darth Maul=Darth Vader

    Count Dooku=Luke Skywalker

    Dooku replaced Maul as Luke would have replaced Vader, but under different circumstances


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  21. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Even after TPM, we stll know very little of the Sith and even less about the "rule of two". All we know is that Yoda claims that there are always 2 Sith, a master and an apprentice. No more, no less. He DID NOT say "The Sith have this rule, you see... there can only be two of them at any one time."

    It was the EU that created the "rule of two" as if it is written in a Sith scroll somewhere. If you can make yourself forget the EU for a second, you'll see that Yoda was simply saying that because of the nature of the Sith, there are always two.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hate to tell you, but it's canon. George Lucas came up with him, based on his notes from the early drafts of ANH and let Terry Brooks run with it. Darth Bane is canon. All the extra stuff from Jedi vs Sith comic series is eu, but not Bane. He is canon. Created by Lucas and Brooks in the TPM novelization and is canon. Don't go quoting about it not being canon, because of stuff that Lucas has changed. He has changed stuff, yes. But he has yet to change it and he won't now.

    The rule of 2 was created to keep the Sith from killing each other and having no Sith. Watch the films and you see it.
  23. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Canon shmanon. For someone who watches the films and ONLY the films, my explanation is the only one that makes logical sense. Your idea (er, the EU's idea) falls flat on its face when trying to explain Vader and the Emperor's conversations about Luke in ESB and ROTJ.

    Why would Vader say "he will join us"? Was he hoping the Emperor would FORGET about the Sith's Holy Rule of Two?

    Why would the emperor say "soon Skywalker will be one of us." If they are aware of the RULE, wouldn't this make Vader a little suspicious of Palpy's motives?

    Why would Vader fight Luke at the end of ROTJ? He doesn't want to kill him, that is clear. And he doesn't seem to be working too hard to convince Luke to turn against the Emperor. He's trying to get Luke to turn to the dark side, of course! But wait, he's violating the Holy Rule of Two! Oh no! Someone report him to the Sith authorities!

    I wonder what other Rules are in the Sith Holy Handbook?
    "Thou shalt wear all black at all times."
    "Thou shalt not brush thy teeth."

    This whole "rule of two" idea is craptastic.

    On a side note, whether or not something is "canon" does not matter to me. This is all fiction, right? How can fiction have a canon? The very idea is paradoxical. But there are good ideas and then there are bad ideas... I am arguing that the "rule of two" is a bad idea because it contradicts the films. Midichlorians are another bad idea. I don't care whether or not they're canon, they're still craptastic.

    Watch the films and you see it.

    Which part exactly???
  24. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Have to agree with mardkill here. The rule of two should be interpreted broadly. The only rule for the Sith seems to be that they live by no rules.

    The rule of may mean "two" but not "only two..." Here's what I mean: The rule of two may be liberally interpreted to mean...they keep their numbers to a minimum to work in secret, usually one master passing his wisdom on to another...the chain thereby unbroken and ensuring that one of them lives to train another....But that doesn't mean that any master would be so stupid as to not have a backup plan? What if one or the other were to be killed fortuitously and the immediate need arose for an ally? There has to be a third on his way to the center of the darkside at all times...

    The idea that a man of foresight and cunning like Sidious wouldn't have sensed the death of his apostle and made an alternative back-up plan is plain ridiculous! Someone like Palpatine/Sidious must be making tons of back-up plans to reach his objective. Whether he foresaw that Maul was going to eat it or not, Dooku had to be well on his way to being an apprentice.

    So what if you are left with two apprentices with nothing to do? Have them duke it out!

    BTW, if it came down to two apprentices (a la "Duality"), I'm sure that Dooku would have taken Maul out very quickly.

    But it's better to have two and a master.
    People tend to think of Vader as a pawn. But he knew that the Emperor would put pressure on him once Luke joined. A third is there for pressure on the other to tow the line or else... :p
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Canon exists because of the expanded universe. It shows what is and isn't from Lucas.

    It's apparent, that you don't pay attention to ESB. Vader is hinting that he was Luke to help kill Palpatine.

    Vader: "Luke, you can destory the Emperor. He has forseen this. It is your destiny. Join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

    That means he's going to use Luke to kill Palpatine. This also means that there are two, count them two, Sith.

    Vader is loyal to Palpatine and can sense that Luke isn't fully there yet. That's why they fight. He warns Luke again about failing to join.

    Vader: "If you will not join me, than you will meet your destiny."

    And finally, listen to Palpatine.

    Palpatine: "Take your weapon, strike me down with it and your journey towards the dark side will be complete."

    Though he perfers not to die, he will, if it insures Luke's turn. Thus there are two Sith left.

    Palpatine: "Now, finish him and take your father's place at my side."

    Luke: "Never. I will never join the dark side. You failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

    Palpatine: "So be it...Jedi. If you will not turn to the dark side, then you will be destroyed."

    Also, Lucas himself has talked about the rule of 2. He mentioned how the Sith were destroyed by their greed and how they limit themselves to two Sith at a time. Not to mention, we've seen so far only two and not more. It is no way is contradicting what happened in ESB and ROTJ. The rule is there to perserve the Sith Order. As we see in ROTJ, Anakin kills Palpatine and with Anakin turning back and dying, the Sith are finished. 2,000 years worth of work and suffering are all gone, in an instant because of greed. Greed on the part of Palpatine for wanting a new Apprentice. Greed on the part of Vader, for wanting to upsur Palpatine and to save his son from death. We're seeing it again in AOTC and in epsiode 3. We have Dooku on the one side, who is quite capable and more than worthy to continue the Sith legacy. He has the skills and experience to carry out Palpatine's plans. On the other side of the fence, we have Anakin Skywalker. One of the most powerful Force users alive. What he lacks in experience, he makes up in determination and power. Palpatine will pit them against each other and the winner, becomes his Apprentice, forever. 2 Sith, no more and no less.

    About what Pooh said about Maul, I refer to Yoda's famous phrase.

    Yoda: "Always in motion, is the future."

    He forsaw Maul living, most likely, but he didn't. He forsaw Anakin turning, he did. He forsaw Luke replacing Vader and the Alliance dying. Neither happened.
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