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Dooku shoulda told Anakin what was up

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Hairless_Ewok, Dec 27, 2005.

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  1. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    The reason he didn't rat on Palpy is because Dooku doesn't know that Palpatine is Sidious.
     
  2. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    Yes he does.
     
  3. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Master star 3

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    Feb 3, 2002
    Really? I thought he regarded Palpatine as just another of Sidious' pawns. If he DID know Palpy was Sidious then why the hell did he go along with the whole "let's turn Skywalker to the dark side" game as he must have known about the rule of 2?
     
  4. SrWilson

    SrWilson Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    Dooku belived Anakin was going to be turned to lead a sith Army or something after sidious had took over the galaxy and of course dooku would be his right hand man.
    I agree though Dooku at his age and experience surely must know how the sith work and should have come up with his own plans.
     
  5. brook_33

    brook_33 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Exactly what I meant.

     
  6. Kained-but-Able

    Kained-but-Able Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 12, 2004
    In the Original Screenplay, when Palpatine says "Kill him now", Dooku said "But You promised me amnesty?!" I think this was filmed too but Lucas cut it from the final version.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It was never filmed. Lee discussed removing it with Lucas before filming the scene. In the novelization, Palpatine talks about creating a Sith Order to rule the Empire. But it's only in the film that Dooku apparently doesn't know of the rule of two. Lucas claims that if Anakin wins, he'll join the two of them. But Dooku doesn't know that Sidious has no more use for him and is carrying on the tradition of two Sith at a time.
     
  8. brook_33

    brook_33 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 30, 2003
    Yes, at the point that Dooku was disarmed he thought he'd be taken prisoner. That's why he looks shocked when Palpatine says "Kill him."
     
  9. Hairless_Ewok

    Hairless_Ewok Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Then he is a FOOL...with dignity
     
  10. JMN77

    JMN77 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2005
    oops--------no message
     
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Agreed. Well, half-agreed...

    Insofar as the FILMS present Dooku's relationship with Palpatine and Sidious, there is NO DIRECT EVIDENCE that Dooku knew that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person. None. Nothing. Zippo. You never see Dooku conspiring directly with Palpatine, mentioning his name to Sidious (or Sidious mentioning it himself) or anything that explicitly renders it clear that Dooku is fully aware of who he is actually dealing with. That Lucas' original screenplay was hinting this way - especially with the cut line about Palpatine promising Dooku mercy - is neither here nor there: it's what exists in the films that is canonical and nothing else. One can be more literal in a novel, and true to form, Stover's novel condenses the ambiguity of the films to a tangible strand; it's an entertaining and clever strand, but still just a strand - a strand that doesn't categorically exist in the films themselves. In fact, although this is mere speculation on my part (and doesn't negate my last point - which is why I'm speculating at all), I have a feeling that Lucas may have conceded to Lee's suggestion for reasons other than that presented by Lee himself. Lucas knew that exorcising the line would preserve this delicate ambiguity! The look on Dooku's face is suggestive - but not absolute.

    Watch Attack of the Clones again. Although Dooku might well be telling different lies to different people (consistent, at the very least, with Yoda's assessment at the close of the film), he does seem genuinely surprised that the Jedi have amassed a great army. Yet this is surely the outcome that Palpatine wanted if Dooku and Sidious were meant to be playing the two sides off one another. Heck, it probably was a bit of deception on Dooku's part: he does, after all, return to Sidious' lair and tell him that, "the war has begun", even labelling it as "good news". But are we any closer to knowing for sure that Dooku knows that Sidious is Palpatine? No. It is highly conceivable that he could know - just as it's highly conceivable that he doesn't and never did. You cannot say with absolute certainty. Of course, not everything can be told literally in a film, and some things are designed to be infered, but you can only infer so much about Dooku and Palpatine's relationship. The game that they play, or get audiences to play, is a bit like the game of Sodoku (pronounced, I believe, "SOH-DOOKU"; yes - very ironic!). In Sodoku, you will find many situations in which you have eliminated nearly all possibilities except for a square being one of two numbers - but you can't simply guess, even with two remaining possibilities, or else you'll commit a logical fallacy and ruin your chances of winning. Same thing here. Just because many of the pieces seem to fit, it doesn't mean that they actually do. There is no concrete proof that Dooku knows. If there was, and that concrete proof was merely fleeting, then it would still be concrete proof - and there would be no ambiguity. But that's simply not the case.
     
  12. TrueJedi

    TrueJedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    The only thing I can think of is that Palpy froze up Dooku's ability to speak. Remember, Palpy IS the Senate and as such has alot of power.
     
  13. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Anakin certainly told Dooku what was up. [face_skull]
     
  14. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Dooku was really bitter towards the Jedi, so he was proud of the fact that he turned to the dark side. He was proud to be a Sith, and to be working with Sidious. So when Sidious suddenly tells Anakin to kill him, he was just left speechless.
     
  15. YYZ-2112

    YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 3, 2004
    The technical reason is because it's a plot device. If he had spilled the beans, the surprise that Palpatine was the Sith Lord would have been spoiled. Even though it was no surprise for most of this generation; it may be a big surprise for future audiences decades from now long after the hype and hysteria dies down. I always felt Lucas was making these films for a far off future audience.

    In terms of the story, the justification could be that the Sith code revolves around the idea "Always a Warrior" so even though he may have to meet his end, as a Sith he has to accept that as part of Anakin's rite of passage. If Anakin could not take that dark step forward and resisted, then Dooku would remain the Apprentice just as Vader remained the apprentice when Luke would not kill him.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Dooku knows that Palpatine is Sidious. There's no reason for him not to and it would be the only way he would trust Sidious.
     
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