Dooku vs. Vader

I concede that including EU, Vader would defeat Dooku, but then Vader has a far more extensive background so unfair advantage
But I don't know if Vader would be able to defeat Grievous in sabre combat, not only does Grievous have 4 blades, but he can match if not outpower Vader, afterall Vader still has some of his upper arm, Grievous doesn't.
Also where is it said that Vader does a force scream in ep III, it didn't seem like one to me.
And please, post all of your pro Vader arguments, he's always been one of my favourite characters but I've never really looked into his EU.

 

Seeing this reminded me of an early draft for TPM, where Sidious confers with the Nemodians over the holo and he gets pissed-off at Dofine (IIRC) for saying something stupid in the background and Force-Chokes the wormo while simultaneously lifting him off of the ground. And the best part is Sidious' line about his reach being "far greater than any Jedi". From what I've read, Lucas cut that-out because he wanted the force-choke to be Vader's thing... but its never been confirmed.

This might sound weird, but ROTS Anakin seems ALOT less powerful than Darth Vader and at that point in the story, he's 60-70% of his former self...

The one thing that seems out of whack in PT hindsight, is that the droid general's mechno-body seems way more suited for lightsaber combat than Vader's. Yes, I know they were two different species, two completely different sets of injuries and had two different roles to fulfill...

what I'm keying-on is GG's 360 degree range of motion with the wrists.
I can imagine Vader with a spinning blade in one hand, and massive chokes/pushes etc with the other...

 

I do so love it when people mention General Grievous as a Jedi killer...

Grievous is not a force user. As such, he has absolutely no defense against ANY force abilities used against him. IE, Vader can simply grab him with the force, raise him in the air, and drop him off a cliff. Or skewer him with his lightsaber. Or use the force to crush his insides. There isn't a damned thing Grievous can do to stop him. General Grievous is probably one of the most poorly conceived "Jedi killers" ever invented. Any padawan with half an ounce's worth of common sense would have been able to whip him, but for the existence of sympathetic script writers on GG's side. The only reason Kenobi had difficulty with Grievous was because Lucas drew the scene out to make it last longer. Even then, he disarms half of Grievous's firepower in the first 30 seconds. If you remove Grievous from the movie, and look at what he can and can't do, then compare him to an actual Jedi or Sith, there is simply no contest. When you have powers and abilities your opponent has absolutely no defense against, you win, period. Physically, his speed might match a Jedi or Sith augmenting their abilities with the force. Maybe if they dueled in an arena that was surrounded by Ysalamiri, Grievous could win. But realistically, he has no shot.


PS, its refreshing to have a thread in which me and SSS are in almost total agreement on, it happens so rarely...lol

 

As far as Vader using Force Scream in ROTS, reread the novel- it describes Vader as 'screaming out through the Force', reaching out to destroy Palpatine, but since he's now reduced to 80% Palpy's power at max, all that gets destroyed is the entire room.

Also note that as Vader is moaning in the buildup for the "NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!" in the film itself, that's when the rumbling starts and things start imploding. It's implied that he cries out in the Force prior to doing so physically.

There's actually a precedent; Anakin uses Force Scream in at LEAST Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS lead-in. He and Obi-Wan are chasing Dooku, and Anakin screams "DOOKU!", pouring so much raw hatred into the word that he brings the roof down on all three of them.

I kid you not.

Also, if you haven't read the Coruscant Nights books yet, go do so. Vader is consistently portrayed as FAR more powerful than ROTS Anakin, and these books still take place in 19 BBY!

Case in point- in the second book, Street of Shadows, Vader frees Aurra Sing from prison so she can do a job for him. Upon reaching Coruscant, Sing is surprised by Vader's breathing coming from the shadows. She whips around, saber igniting in her hand- only to have it wrenched out of her grip even as she registers that it's Vader, and FAR before she can register any kind of intent towards her, whether good or ill.

The hilt smacks into Vader's hand, and he ignites it, holding it up; the blade starts getting so bright that even Sing, who notes that she has a high tolerance for bright lights, has to look away. Then, the light stops, the blade extinguishes, and all that's left is a puff of smoke coming from the now-useless handle.

You see, Vader overloaded the lightsaber's crystal with the Force.

Regarding Vader blocking blaster bolts with his bare hand, there are numerous competign explanations, all with sources backing them up. At the moment, they all seem equally well-supported, so I see no reason to doubt that the truth is a combination of all of them.

1. Vader is seen blocking them exclusively with his right hand, IIRC- which would make it blocking them with the Glove of Darth Vader (no, not the kids' book!)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader

2. The padding on Vader's arms and BOTH gauntlets is at least partially composed of blast-dampening armor.

3. The original explanation, Vader was using the Force to block it; it's implied implied to be some combination of Force Deflection and Force Absorb:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Absorb

Now, I've heard secondhand testimony that Vader vaporizes some poor guy in Marvel Star Wars Droids #7; if so, that would correspond to Force Destruction.
Interestingly, this wouldn't be the only canonical time he would have used such an ability- in Coruscant Nights III: Patterns of the Force, Vader, under the influence of Bota, starts uncontrollably lashing out with what is described as 'raw dark side energy' and destroying everything around him; interestinglym, when one of these blasts hits someone, he is, and I quote, 'reduced to ashes'.
It seems interesting, then, that perhaps the Force Destruction-esque abilities Vader pulls in Soulcalibur IV AREN'T just pure inventions for that game, seeing as he's done it at least twice before.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Destruction

(Continued below- getting sick of the stupid window not staying at the bottom so I can't see what I'm typing... )

 

"I was just about to say that."

No matter how they slice it: the droid general and everything-Jedi-related, was a sham IU.

 

Going back to the Force Scream, check the first line of the Wook page:
"Force scream was a Force power used by Dark Jedi. It was a scream, of strong frustration, rage, or grief, emitted through the force."
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_scream

Perfectly describes the whole "NNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!" sequence, right?

And again, even if Dooku starts getting through Vader's defense, I reiterate:

Force barrier capable of resisting Lightsaber strikes.

TK barrage.

Rinse and repeat!

Let's not forget Saber Throw- Vader's the master at that, frequently sending his crimson blade spiniing through the air like a deadly boomerang of death.

You know, I have a fairly direct comparison of Vader and Dooku's skills, in-universe. Both Vader and Dooku (as well as Darth Maul) were known to train with Duelist Elite droids programmed with the knowledge of lightsaber masters and with their lethality inhibitors removed.

However, UNlike Dooku (who continued to use the model until his death, as per Labyrinth of Evil), Vader found he couldn't get a decent workout before he reduced them to oh-so-much expensive scrap. Thus, he had to have less expensive units like ASP-19s custom-modified into lightsaber training droids so even Emperor, richest man in the Galaxy, could manage to afford to keep Vader's supply of sparring partners from running dry.

Also, I've seen Dooku's Grip/kick maneuver in ROTS mentioned. Sorry, Dooku's pathetic compared to Vader in TK. Didn't Vader hurl a steamcrawler or something like that in Dark Times? And how can we forget Vader's Force Wave in Empire at War, which hurls his enemies a great distance and kills them, too?

So, yeah- Vader > Dooku with a saber, Vader > Dooku with the Force, Vader's tactical mind > Dooku's tactical mind (because let's face it- when was the last time Dooku did ANY scheming without Sidious?).

Only thing left to say is to point to some mandatory reading/viewing for any Vader fan:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader%27s_armor
Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
Coruscant Nights I-III: Jedi Twilight, Street of Shadows, and Patterns of the Force
The Purge comics
Dark Times- seriously, Doug Wheatley's Vader is the best thing to happen to him since the OT!
And check out The Force Unleashed, at least as far as to be able to play the first level. Or you could look for walkthroughs of it on YouTube or something. Either way, you haven't LIVED until you've seen Vader nonchalantly strolling along, Force-hurling Wookiees left and right and sending them tumbling hundreds of feet through the air, or watched Vader walk up to a seemingly-impenetrable barrier and just blast it to splinters with the Force, or walk up to a massive wroshyr tree and Force Crush it, mangling the tree and causing all the bark to just splinter off!

 

Kashyyyk was fantastic to play-through as Vader.

 

Heh, no kidding!

Yeah, still here- I was having problems with that last post, and it cut out part of what I typed!

Here it is, AGAIN:

"Now, before I hear people saying Dooku's going to be outthinking Vader, let me point out that Vader is a tactical mastermind. He's a master at firepath (basically space chess), and his style is characterized by, and I quote, "intrigue and charm". He's known for baiting his opponents, drawing them into vulnerable positions with complicated ruses, and then systematically destroying them.

Oh, and best Vader scheme EVER has to be the Tay Vanis bit. Tay Vanis being this one high-ranking Rebel intel officer, yeah? Well, Vader captured him- but rather than just interrogate him to death (which he intended to do anyways ), Vader decided to get a bit more use out of Vanis.

He leaked to some of the less trustworthy Imperial military officials that they could curry favor with him if they could bring him Tay Vanis; simultaneously, he leaked to the Rebels that he had captured Vanis.

So we're clear- Vader has the entire Alliance and dang near half the Empire jumping through hoops on a wild bantha chase trying to find some guy Vader already has in his custody, just to keep them all busy.


And of course, Vader planned it so well that he knows Luke will be the one to finish the mission, and leaves a holomessage for him, congratulating Luke and giving him the contents of Vanis' cell "with my compliments, young Skywalker."

Cut to the broken, vegetative, basically interrogated-to-brain-death form of Tay Vanis:
[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/d/da/TayVanis.jpg/800px-TayVanis.jpg]"

That was to go before me summing up all the ways Vader is superior to Dooku.

Blargh- stupid glitches- just when you think you've gotten rid of me, I get stuck posting here again and it's not even my fault!

 

All of the emotions, impulses and irrational behavior must've been in his arms and legs... because Vader wasn't anything like Anakin.

 

QFT. Perfect answer.

 

In a nutshell then, what we are saying is that Vader would cream Dooku, because unlike Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader is a walking, talking killing machine. All of Anakin's weaknesses stripped from him, no hesitation, no remorse, just pure, unbridled but extremely skilled killing power, paired with incredible Force affinity.

Okay. That works for me.

 

I don't know if it was that good. There is one flaw in it, Vader used considerable restraint with Luke. Now it can be argued that Vader was doing so because he held the ultimate "ACE" up his blast-dampening sleeve, with the reveal... and it also can be said that Vader was toying with Luke as a test of his abilities... with a lightsaber. But I never see anyone mention Vader's (garbled true history aside) respect for the raw power in Luke Skywalker's veins. If young Anakin was capable of fits of force-empowered rage, then would his son. "The Force is STRONG with you Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet." I do not think for one moment that Darth Vader feared, Luke Skywalker. But I'd go all in on the bet that Vader(throwing out the ESB Novel here, regardless) was braced for anything as he came up the stairs.

One of his first lessons, or set of instructions if you will, Vader failed to learn. Sure he whacked the younglings that he had little or no emotional connection to... but clearly, he hesitated with Kenobi on Mustafar. He reasoned with his enemy. He allowed the fight to be drawn out, he wanted to wear down Obi-Wan, he wanted to humiliate his former Master. He held back. No one alive in the GFFA could have stood toe to toe with him when unrestrained and empowered by the dark side.

"Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side..."

Davi, I intentionally left out: "to save Padme" because I want to focus on the truth in Sidious' twisted words. After Padme's choke was interupted, had Vader acted accordingly with his new Master's teachings... Kenobi might not have made it off the platform. If Count Dooku, the vaunted Lord Tyranus could snatch Obi-Wan and toss him like Starkiller... then what could an immensely 'pissed off at his wife' and unsuited Darth Vader do?

I shudder to think, my friend.

So, looking at Vader in the suit... after that kind of failure... he would tear through Dooku like a flame consumes newspaper. Isn't great that we're agreeing all the time now?

 

Actually, the blasts of energy in that scene were only (potentially) lethal due to blunt force trauma. Tesla, for example, was hit and escaped. When Vader disintegrated Rhinann it was something different.

 

I just reread that part, and you're right- which would seem to be further indication that that was already an ability he possessed (cue that part I heard about with Vader disintegrating someone in the Marvel comics) and not necessarily the result of the bota.



Also, great food for thought- in Street of Shadows, when Typho shows up and accuses Vader of killing Padme Amidala, Vader's surprise is described as enough to rattle the building they're in to its foundations.

Now, tell me- since when has Dooku ever showed enough power to rattle a Coruscant building UNINTENTIONALLY, much less INTENTIONALLY?

Also, go reread that book for the fight against Aurra Sing in Vader's quarters- Vader hits her with a surge in the Force so powerful that, even though Aurra is the target, it causes Imperial Royal Guards out in the hallway (something like maybe 30 feet away from Vader and Sing) to almost fall on their behinds.

EDIT: Oh, and who can forget the part where Aurra Sing is surprised by Vader and whirls on him, lightsaber drawn- only to have Vader rip her saber from her grasp, call it to his hand, and then overload her lightsaber's crystal with the Force, rendering it completely useless?

 

Double-post for a reason:

Just ran across yet ANOTHER Force Scream from Vader, which brings the grand total that I'm aware of Anakin/Vader doing to five:

1. Clone Wars Micro-Series (after defeating Assaj Ventress, bellows out in rage both audibly and in the Force with such sheer emotion and power that it is felt as far away as Coruscant)
2. Labyrinth of Evil (screams Dooku's name with such rage that he brings the roof of the building they're in down on himself, Obi-Wan, and Dooku)
3. Revenge of the Sith ("NNNNNOOOOOOOOO!" as the lab around him is reduced to rubble)
4. Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows (his sheer anger at Typho's mentioning Padme is described as sufficient to rattle the building they're on top of to its foundations)
5. Last of the Jedi series (when Inquisitor Malorum mentions his findings regarding Padme's death, Vader nearly kills him with a Force Choke, and again, his anger starts bringing the ruins of the Jedi Temple down around them)

And then of course, one could make an argument that Anakin let out a Force Scream during the Tusken Slaughter, as Yoda seems physically stricken by the sheer intensity of Anakin's pain and wrath bleeding through the Force, which makes this a possible SIXTH usage.

I think that number- greater than for any other character I've heard of by FAR- is sufficient to say that Vader would be exceptionally prone to Force Screams, and that it would DEFINITELY be something Dooku would have to watch out for in any hypothetical battle.

 

Me too.

 

I think Dooku severs a limb of Vader but in that moment of surprise, Vader kills him because he feels no pain from it.

Maul would have destroyed Dooku. I don't see anyone but a badly written scene beating Maul.

 

I read it as being from the bota. I don't expect to see Vader do it again while in non-bota mode.

 

Then again, I did hear something about him pulling it in one of the Marvel comics. IIRC, I think the guy said Marvel Star Wars Droids #7...

In any case, some less-ambiguous ammo for the pro-Vader camp. Checked Death Star out of the local library, and found a little section I'd forgotten. Vader, fresh from his hyperbaric chamber, goes and uses the dark side to shatter a mirror made of aluminized densecris, which is said in the novel to be supposedly unbreakable.

 

Would you mind transcribing that passage and posting it?
Or at least paraphrase it with a little more detail for me?

 

Vader wins again, he may not have Anakin's raw force abilities. But he has the patience and knowledge to defeat Dooku. Let's not forget that Dooku's style(Makashi) is weak against Djem So, which is Vader/Anakin style. Dooku had trouble keeping up Anakin's physical strength in ROTS, so imagine him going up against a far more physically dominate Vader.

 

Don't know why, but I've always found that passage to be totally awesome... then, now. And, he did that because she didn't deserve to carry a light saber, IMO.

 

Here ya go. For context, Vader just emerged from his hyperbaric chamber aboard the Devastator, and is thinking about how he'd normally be going to train against his lightsaber training droids. However, then he muses that a Sith has other talents, and those ALSO need to be exercised...

"Vader inhaled, holding the dry and slightly bitter air for as long as his scarred lungs could manage it. When he allowed the breath to be drawn from him by the respirator, he thrust his right hand toward a nearby mirror.
The aluminized densecris shattered into a thousand pieces, struck by the dark side as if by a metal fist.
Vader was aware of the "unbreakable" substance splintering and falling, tinkling onto the floor, myriad reflections sparkling in the light as they seemed to move in slow motion."

Here ya go. For context, Vader just emerged from his hyperbaric chamber aboard the Devastator, and is thinking about how he'd normally be going to train against his lightsaber training droids. However, then he muses that a Sith has other talents, and those ALSO need to be exercised...

"Vader inhaled, holding the dry and slightly bitter air for as long as his scarred lungs could manage it. When he allowed the breath to be drawn from him by the respirator, he thrust his right hand toward a nearby mirror.
The aluminized densecris shattered into a thousand pieces, struck by the dark side as if by a metal fist.
Vader was aware of the "unbreakable" substance splintering and falling, tinkling onto the floor, myriad reflections sparkling in the light as they seemed to move in slow motion."

 

Now, if I could just find that entire passage where he burns out Sing's saber...

 

Sorry for repeating the content of that post- I was experiencing major posting troubles last night.