dooku vs yoda, yoda vs palpatine

They all lost legitmately, just because the Jedi didn't overpower them doesn't make their victories have any less legitimacy.

 

I think Yoda was more than capable of defeating Sidious in 5/10 duels. And would have most likely bested Dooku given the chance in 9/10 duels. This is the case if they should fight without having destiny deciding their respective fates.

The reason i gave Dooku 1 win out of 10 against Yoda is because the most powerful doesnt always win. As we have seen with Obi-wan defeating Anakin.

 

i totally agree, sidious and yoda would have had a split descision if destinies were not to interfer, and im still not so sure about dooku wining one but, i ll give him the benefit of the doubt with this one, he would barely win 1/10

 

I agree with both of you

 

Agree with you here.

 

as you can see from my previous post, the main problem is the pt is just so inconsistent with all of the characters strenghts...

 

We've discussed this before in other threads. And we distinguished between force power, dark side power, and saber ability. As for power in the Force, Yoda and Sidious to me seem to be the most powerful, with Dooku next, followed by Mace. Whether or not Kenobi in ROTS was as powerful as QG in TPM I do not know, but one could argue that QG in ROTS is the most powerful Force user. Palps certainly can use the Force to make frisbees of Senatorial pods and send Mace into the depths of Coruscant, conceal his identity, etc. He may be more powerful than Yoda, but then Yoda was able to repel this lightning successively even after being wounded by the initial volley. And he did not lose due to less Force ability; he retreated to fight another day. So they may be even or Palps is a bit stronger. Dooku can use lightning and deal with Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously using the Force.

As for Dark Side power, obviously it is Palps>Dooku>Maul>Vader.

As for saber ability, if we bring in the EU, Mace lost to Yoda and Dooku in duels. And while Mace's Vaapad may rely on touching a bit into the Dark Side and being physically aggressive, Dooku's style is tailored for fighting other swordsmen and he does a bit more than tap into the Dark Side. I think Dooku may be the best swordsman in the Saga. Yes, Anakin literally disarmed him, but he did that after taking control. He was out to kill Dooku, whereas Dooku was not out to kill Anakin. Dooku had to hold back, whereas Anakin was consumed with rage, overpowered Dooku, and then found an opportunity. Just as Vader was stronger in the Force and the Dark Side and a better swordsman than Luke in ROTJ, underestimated his son, and was not out to kill him--whereas Luke flipped and tried to kill his dad--Dooku was not prepared for a pissed-off Anakin. I think Dooku could beat Sids in a swordfight, since Force power may help out in such a fight but does not in and of itself make one the best swordsman.

As for those who think Yoda held back against Dooku in AOTC, they may be influenced by the spoilers for AOTC where it seemed like Dooku was made to look stupid and struggling against his master. But as the finished product of the film shows, it was a draw.

 

I got a chuckle out of this one. Maul ranked ahead of Vader? Please. I can only assume that due to Maul's cool looks that you rank him ahead of Vader. Maul is NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Vader or Tyranus would run circles around the guy. When you Sith name means tool, you really are a tool in the SW universe. He's a glorified asassin for Palpatine.

 

And I get a chuckle when people make these statements. Maul killed a highly regarded Jedi Master. I think we are supposed to conclude that was no small feat. And unlike Vader, he did in a 2-on-1 fight. I don't know why Vader is seen as sooo much more powerful.

And I say the same thing for Yoda. Again, for everyone who says he is the most powerful, I ask, where is the proof? What did he do on screen that showed his massive amounts of power?

 

and I get a chuckle when people make THESE statements. All the Maul fans do is point to that ONE fight against Qui-Gon, saying oh how great Maul must be, he killed a single Jedi Master...and then conveniently leave out the fact that he was then killed by that Jedi Master's apprentice...Ok, he killed Qui-Gon...cool. But then died to Kenobi...not cool. If you are going to completely disregard George Lucas's opinion (which is kinda foolish, considering he is the end all be all to the SW galaxy) then you are right...if you disregard GL saying Yoda is the best, then perhaps there is a lack of evidence that he is as great as his reputation...but, if that applies to Yoda, then it also diminishes Maul's victory over Qui-Gon, as there is no evidence whatsoever on screen that Qui-Gon was anything more than an average Jedi duelist.

Your own argument works against you in this case. If you want to argue Yoda was overrated because there isn't anything on screen indicating it (I would say forcing Dooku to flee, and fighting Sidious to a draw, throwing the Senate saucer back at him, being one of only a handful of Jedi to survive Order 66, then only having a few weeks or months to train Luke to confront a Sith Lord, and succeeding would be evidence of Yoda's abilities, but whatever) you can't then make Maul's victory more important, because there is even less evidence Qui Gon was any good, unless you count outside sources. We see Qui-Gon fight some lame droids, fight Maul for a minute while everyone else boards the ship on Tatooine, then fight Maul again and dying...not exactly a convincing resume, yet, because Maul kills him, Maul becomes some ubergodlike killing machine? PUHLEASE. If we go strictly by what is shown on screen, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is by far the greatest:

-only human EVER to win a Podrace.
-singlehandedly destroys the droid control ship above Naboo.
-tames the Rek in the Geonosian arena.
-along with some clone troopers, destroys EVERY Jedi inside the temple.
-kills Dooku.
-gets burned by molten hot lava...SURVIVES.
-is only Imperial survivor of 1st Death Star.
-kills Sidious.

Darth Vader is a tough SOB.

 

But he lost to less than a Padawan, fell down while stumbling backwards, and his respirator went on the fritz after a 10 second onslaught by Luke, a very mild onslaught. He couldn't catch up with Luke after Luke had learned some very tame acrobatics. Between Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, speed, kicks, aggression and acrobatics, Maul would have put him down in seconds. Maul is perfectly suited to taking down big slow tanks like Vader.

 

If you read my earlier posts you would see that I never mentioned Maul as being an all powerful force user. I only mention him now because at least he actually defeated someone, unlike Yoda. I said Dooku is a much better case for a very powerful force user. I would not rank Maul at the top.

But Yoda has done nothing. If we want to go by his off-screen legend, then sure, he's the man. But as for what he actually did in the 5 movies he was in, it's not impressive. Throwing a saucer, not a big deal. As for "forcing Dooku to flee", I would more put that as, could not defeat Dooku. Again, he gave Dooku his best attack he could and did not land a scratch on him. And furthermore, Dooku had already accomplished everything he wanted to (starting the war, obtaining the Death Star plans) and Yoda's back up was on the way, so there was no reason to stick around. Which is why Dooku CHOSE to swing the pillar at Anak

 

Exactly. Everybody assumes that Midichlorians = victory, when Star Wars has continually shown up that Force strength does not guarantee victory in a duel. Had that been so, Qui-Gon would have killed Darth Maul in seconds on Naboo, and Obi-Wan would have lost to Anakin on Mustafar before they even got off of the landing pad.

 

Has Lucas said anything about Qui-Gon being anything more than an average duelist? I know in the EU, Qui-Gon's last duel was over a decade before when he fought Maul. So his protrayal in the EU is average duelist at best. He can be a respected Master, but I never believed him to be strong enough even for Maul.

 

This again highlights the problem that GL never took the the time to really explain force power or skill in the PT. Don't Jedi masters ever spar with each other? Don't they still meditate and hone their psychic abilities? Who knows? It's never shown. Is psychic ability more important than saber skill? Are some Jedi too powerful to be "force pushed"? It's never explained. We never even see Anakin train! Wow.

So it's very hard to gauge who is better than who. Wui Gon could have been the best duelist or just run of the mill. The movies never clarify. But we do know he is a "master" and Maul beat him so Maul has to get some props for that.

 

And we do know that Maul then got punk'd by a trainee, so he loses props for that.

 

No doubt. Again, I am not saying Maul is the best.

 

GreenDestinySword, I think your giving Qui-Gon too much credit just because he was a Master. As with Anakin Skywalker, just because your powerful, it does not grant you the rank of Master. So to assume Qui-Gon is a powerful duelist or Force user is wrong. Certainly, Qui-Gon is able, but it doesn't mean he is a top duelist. Darth Maul was run of the mill. Nothing great. You don't see Palpatine running to Naboo to save Maul, like he did Vader. So if Maul is just average, Qui-Gon is average or below average. Maul's loss to Obiwan seems to reinforce my point.

 

What??? I just wrote "Qui Gon could have been a great duelist or run-of-the mill. The movies never clairfy."

And I still maintain that. The movies don't clarify. So we can't assum that Maul "was average" or that Qui Gon was either. We just don't know. But we do know Maul beat Qui Gon in the midst of a 2 on 1 fight so at least that says something for him.

But my main point is the films never come close to clarifying any of this and it was a big omission.

 

I get a chuckle out of watching all the chuckles you guys chuckle about.

***

So if Maul loses props for "getting punk'd by a trainee", how many points does Count Doo-Doo get docked for having his own Master order his execution, while face to face?


Dooku was like Luca Bratzi, Sidious made sure he slept w/ the fishes.

 

ill give you that, maul probably was a better duelist than the ot version of vader but the ot vader would have just used an onslaught of force attacks on maul, who had little knoweledge of the force according to the movies, so he there fore would have died...

 

You need to brush up on your Godfather analogies...Dooku and Brasi are nothing alike. Luca was a professional hitman, devoid of intelligence, and whose only job was to kill whomever Vito Corleone wanted him too...actually, he sounds alot like Darth Maul...Count Dooku was in charge of the entire Seperatist movement on Sidious's behalf, which is a job responsibility that is a lot closer to what Tom Hagen does for both Vito and Michael Corleone as Consigliere. Dooku had infinitely more responsibility than Maul, and was capable of and entrusted with far more than whacking someone off. Luca was nothing but a brute...just like Maul. Also, Vito Corleone did not order Luca Brasi's death...The Turk did it on behalf of Tataglia...so, your analogy just doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps you should have said he was like Fredo, at least Michael ordered his death...If you are gonna invoke the other great trilogy, be sure you get the facts straight.

 

Was this on purpose though? It seems to me that Lucas wanted to show the auidence (for some reason) that no one was leaps and bounds ahead of another. Perhaps to pereserve some drama? I don't know. It seems to me that the reason we have debates raging years after the films have come out is that there is no clear cut answer and everything is truly debatable. But honestly, who really knows? I never would have though padawan Obiwan could beat Maul, nor did I think Mace could disarm Palpatine or that Anakin would simply not destroy Obiwan in seconds.

 

I believe I wrote, "As for Dark Side power, obviously it is Palps>Dooku>Maul>Vader." Vader in ROTS is not as powerful in the Dark Side as Maul, I believe. Vader has trained how long as a Sith? He has learned how much? Vader certainly had a higher midichlorian count than Maul and may have even actualized his potential in the Force than Maul. Moreover, Vader may have been a better swordsman than Maul, though again, maybe not. One could argue that Maul is still a better swordsman. But as far as dark sider, Vader was still a newb.

Glad to see I got a round of chuckles going.

 

There is no question that Anakin was stronger with the Force, but Darth Maul was definately stronger with the Dark Side. He'd have killed a room full of Jedi Younglings and never shed a tear. But then again, he had been with Sidious for years. It consumes you over time.