dooku vs yoda, yoda vs palpatine

Umm...who cares if he would have killed a room full of Jedi Younglings and never shed a tear? Darth Vader did just that...and didn't shed a tear. So, exactly what does that prove? That would be like me saying Darth Vader is more evil because he lost a lightsaber duel to Obi-Wan Kenobi...something Maul did. Saying Maul is more evil because he would do something that Darth Vader DID do makes little sense, especially when Vader did it as his first real task under Sidious...Vader was with Sidious for all of 10 minutes when Sidious told him to wipe out the Jedi temple...and he did it. So, how exactly does that establish that Maul had a stronger affinity towards the Dark Side? If Vader didn't blink at being told to slaughter an entire temple of Jedi, a group he belonged to when he woke up that morning, people he knew on a first name basis, and slaughtering the kids too on his first day as a Sith, I would say that makes him far more hardcore Dark Side. He went all in immediately. Maul was trained from birth into it...yet, Vader accomplished more on his first day as a Sith than Maul accomplished his entire life.

 

I need to do what?

Facts straight?

I made no mention of who ordered what, I just said Sidious made sure Dooku slept with the fishes. You drew your own ignorant conclusion. Luca and Dooku were comparable because they both got whacked. That was it, that was my point. I would never sully the Don Vito's name by comparing him to any one else, even Lord Darth Sidious.


Dooku was hardly like Hagen. Dooku knew nothing of Sidious' plans.
Tom was in the loop on everything; before Michael took over, perhaps it is you that should check the facts. And Michael whacking Fredo isn't even worth discussing here, but I run the risk of ranting here...

***

Anyways, Dooku was nothing to Sidious why else would he have him whacked?

 

Vader was crying after the Temple/Mustafar slaughter. He wasn't fully evil yet. Do you think Darth Sidious would have cried after killing some Jedi children? Doubtful.

 

"Do not hesitate... show no mercy."

I'll bet he cackled even harder after he sent Vader to the Jedi Temple.

 

makes you wonder about the lung capacity of the old man

 

There wasn't an ounce of goodness in that twisted Sith bastard...

In fact, Webster's now spells the word Evil:
Pee. aye. ehl. pee. aye. tee. eye. ehn. eee.

 

I think even Hitler would be frightened at the capacity of evil in the heart and lungs of Sideous
We both know that the iron-lungs of OT-Vader couldn't match it

 

I am amazed you can't see the obvious error in your analogy. By comparing Dooku to Luca Brasi, since Sidious, Dooku's master, got rid of him, the implication is that Vito Corleone got rid of Luca. That is the only way your analogy would make sense, but since Vito DIDN'T order Luca's death, your analogy is obviously flawed. You are trying to equate someone who is killed by his own boss's plotting to someone who was killed by his boss's main rival. There is a world of difference. Had Dooku bested Anakin, Sidious would have kept Dooku around...until his plans for galactic conquest no longer needed him.

As to why Dooku was "whacked" by Sidious? I am also amazed that you can't draw the obvious conclusion that Dooku was a test for Anakin. I have never said that Sidious planned on keeping Dooku forever, indeed, I have stated numerous times that with his discovery of Anakin, not only was Count Dooku expendable, that had Darth Maul survived, he also would have been nothing but a tool for Sidious to use until he was ready to turn Anakin over. I have never stated that Dooku's fate was more than that of a pawn, Sidious used him, just like he used Maul. A means to an end. Maul would have met the exact same fate as Dooku. Treachery is the way of the Sith. Sidious would not hesitate to whack ANYONE if it served his overall purposes to do so. Maul would not have been safe, Dooku obviously wasn't safe, and I can even imagine a time when Sidious would have not even blinked an eye at eliminating Vader. Sidious doesn't care about anyone but Sidious. That Dooku meant little to Sidious personally is irrelevant, as the same description can be accurately applied to the entire population of the Star Wars galaxy, save Sidious himself. Yes Dooku was nothing but a pawn. But, so was Maul, Vader, Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, the entire Galactic Senate, Sate Pestage, Armand and Ysanne Isard, Thrawn, Nute Gunray, etc...Dooku was a

 

Agreed.

 

The reason why we cant rate everyone from least to greatest is that they are so diverse. They all have htier own special talent, which sometimes helps them, sometimes doesn't.

I remember reading Either wikipedia or the Star Wars website, and it said that Qui Gon lost to Maul because the method of saber fighting he utilizes requires a lot of space, adn the environment hey were in just didn't call for that, and Maul had him cornered.

And why do you think Yoda lost, or drawed if you are a Yoda fan, to Sids? Because Sids is physically stronger. People disregard simple physics sometiems in Star Wars, because it is assumed everything can be overcome iwth the force. And that is true, but hwen two people with equal Force p[otential are in a fight, the physically better one will win. Look at when Yoda deflected his lightning right before he fell, though it looks like hes winning, pause your DVD. The lightning is much closer to Yoda, Sids just outfought him.

And, in turn, this is why Sidius lost to Windu. Now, possibly, it was because Sidius was trying to fool Anakin, who knows. But from what we see on screen. There was little use the Force could have, and they were in a tight environment, where there is little acrobatics you can do. It doesn't matter how good of a force user or lightsaber acrobat you are. Its just a basic fight, and Windu is a much bigger stronger guy then Palpatine. He knocked the saber right out of his hand for God's sakes.

And why did Obi Wan beat Anakin and Maul? Because he is a very conservative adn smart fighter, and takes advantages of their weaknesses. That's how he beat his foes, with tactics.

And that's the same reason why Grevious stayed alive and caused heck so long, his tactics.

And maybe Qui Gon died on purpose? This is just a thought, not saying it's true. But why do you think it's called Duel of the Fates? If he didn't die, he couldn't have become a ghost and instruct others how to do it. Perhaps reshaping the events of hte Original Trilogy. Who knows? So if I had to rate it on individual strengths, it would go like this.

Physical Strength: Mace, Maul, Anakin, Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Palps, Dooku, Yoda.

Close Range Lightsaber Ability: Mace, Anakin(especially as Vader), Maul, Obi Wan, Palps, Yoda, Dooku, Qui Gon

Wide Range Lightsaber Ability: Yoda, Anakin, Dooku, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Palps, Maul, Mace

Smarts(logic): Obi Wan, Dooku, Sids, Yoda, Qui Gon, Mace, Anakin, Maul

Knowledge of Force: Yoda, Qui Gon, Sids, Dooku, Qui Gon, Mace, Obi Wan, Anakin, Maul

 

I like how you brought physics into this but your theory has one flaw, the force can aid you in your physical abilities(yoda cant possibly move as fast as he does while in a duel with out the force) (luke jumped out of the carbon freezing chamber in esb) But other than that i think you are right, just like every boxer has one person whom they can not beat(ali beat foreman, foreman beat frazier, frazier beat ali)

 

Sometimes I wonder if people have even seen the movies. *shakes head in exasperation*

Obi-Wan CLEARLY warned Vader NOT to jump over the freaking lava; Vader being a whiny kid denied his lolly din't listen, and jumped. Obi-Wan chpped him up, took pity on him, and didn't finish the job. I mean, Anakin couldn't even wipe the spittle drooling from his burnt face after Obi-Wan was done with him. Obi-Wan walked away from the duel without even a SCRATCH.

Clearly, this showcases SKILL. Not LUCK. Obi-Wan WARNED anakin what would happen if he jumped; again this = SKILL.

LUCK was when Obi-Wan split Maul into two. Maul had CLEARLY dominated the fight, against two Jedi. (arguably two of the greatest and most skilled jedi ever). It was a one way fight all the freaking way. until Obi-Wan lucked out and managed to split him into two. Obi-Wan did not WARN Maul, unlike he warned vader because Maul is not whiny nor is he stupid, as Vader was. Also, unlike the duel with vader, where Obi-Wan KNEW what he would do, in TPM against Maul Obi-Wan had no idea his blind and utterly desperate move would succeed; Obi was acting on pure LUCK.

In Ep 2 Anakin was EASILY humilated and defeated by Dooku!! Anakin lost his freaking arm. (this guy is not even skilled enough to protect his own body! And people call him a good duelist????)

In ep3, Anakin manages to score a victorey over Dooku, but ONLY because it wa a 2-1 fight, with Obi-Wan helping him (had obi not been there anakin would have been choked and would have been crushed easily) AND because Sidious had specifically ORDERED Dooku NOT to kill Anakin!!

Anakin chops mace's arm of by stabbing him in the back (basically), AND he had Sidious doing most of the dirty work!

Later in the OT, Vader was defeated easily by his own son, who was not even a freaking padawan. Luke only completedf a few MONTHS of training, thats not even youngling level!!!

AMAZING! The ONLY time we see Anakin score a victory over a force user is through overwhelming odds (the guy cannot do anything by himself) AND by cheating!!



So basically it comes down to this:

Anakin/Vader: Spent first 7-8 years of his life as a slave, yelling YIPEEE like a retard. Punked By Luke, weakest of ALL Jedi in the movies. Swatted aside by Dooku in epsod 2 like a bug. Crushed by Obi-Wan. Killed by the Emperor!! Wears an upside down bucket over his head in OT, breathes like a hippo with asthma, has a ridiculous potbelly, and wears a freaking CAPE! Is constatntly confused, has divided loyalties, is corrupted by being trained in completely opposing teachings (first jedi, then sith), falls for the first chick that comes his way, gives up his destiny for said chick. Has utterly no self respect. Is a wife beater.

Darth Maul: Was a DARTH before anakin even BEGAN his training. Takes on a Jedi MASTER and his apprentice (Obi-Wan Kenobi, who goes on to become perhapos THE greatest jedi ever.) at the same time. Dominates and wins easily (even though he is still an apprentice!). Killed when Obi-Wan lucks out. Wears menacing dark robes, covered with terrifying tattoes, young and fit in mind and body. Has no divided loyalties, and is utterly loyal to his master,to the dark side and to sith ideals. No confusion, no hesitation, NO MERCY!

Its obvious to anyone Content removed that maul is CLEARLY superior to Vader in every arena involving martial arts as well as combatative use of the force. Heck, its a no-brainer. Vader was a confused, confused person with divided loylaties towards, jedi, sidious, sith, and padme. Maul was focused, utterly confident and devoted to sith ideals.



Sinister Edit: Watch it.

 

Okay, calm down Sitara. There's no need for some of those comments in your post.

 

Apologies Sinister. However, all comments have been against fictional characters, not against anyone on these boards. Still, if there is something you want me to edit-out and delete let me know and I will do so.

 

Dooku was an expert swordsman. This is shown in his double pwnage of Obi-Wan. He only lost to Anakin due to Palpatine and his lies. As for Yoda, he wasn't merely "testing" Dooku. Yoda claimed how vital it was to capture Dooku, so why, when confronted, would Yoda choose to test him, rather than kill him? Just doesn't make sense. You have to realise that Dooku was extremely skillful with a lightsaber. For me, he was up there with Sidious, but Sidious would over-power Dooku with Force powers.

 

It's just better to be safe than sorry. Just make sure to not get personal and you were getting a bit close. But let's get back on topic now.

 

I can see your a Maul fan, not difficult to see that and you problably do not like Anakin very much.

Yes. Obi Wan did beat Anakin fare and square, BUT at that point Anakin was a emotionl wreck, alot of things where going on in his head. So Obi Wan used that only opportunity to defeat his friend.
If he had not find Anakin so early and they had to fight days, months, yea

 

This is quite true. Ufortunately, Dooku is negated as a powerful force user, and duelist, because of his ultimate, and inevitable, death at the hands of Anakin - but people seem to be forgetting the circumstances under which that happened, which I'm sure I don't have to repeat

Yoda vs. Dooku is tricky business! Yoda was not trying to kill Dooku however you're looking at it. It seems obvious to me that he was somewhat testing him - why else would he not throw back the stuff Dooku threw at him - why else would he not send back that final hurl of lightning? BUT, Yoda was first and foremost there to save the lives of Anakin and OBW, but as you argue, he was also there to try to capture Dooku.

Yoda explicitly went for the kill with Sideous, and thus he did not hold back any more than he had to - if any. With Dooku he could not do anything to risk the lives of OBW and Anakin, nor would he want to kill Dooku - as he knew another apprentice would step forward instantly - one he would not have any connection, or influence, with!

Duels are very hard to compare

 

NO MESSAGE - DELETE POST

 

Of coarse he was trying to destroy Dooku. Why would he wish to test Dooku, when he earlier implied that it is important to capture the Dark Lord? Yoda was certainly trying to kill Dooku. I just don't see any point in testing him. Why?

Well, for a start, Yoda threw back the lightning. As for the rocks, if you throw rocks at someone by using the Force, then you are not acting in self-defense. This is the Jedi philosophy. They only use the Force in self-defense.

Because he already tried that. All Dooku did was stick his hand out and the lightning reflected off into every direction. It wouldn't work. Dooku had the power to deflect lightning. Thus: "It seems this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force."

Was Yoda even aware that Obi-Wan and Anakin had been beaten? Or did he just turn up out of curiosity? Anyway, this is besides the point. The point is that Yoda was not "testing" Dooku. He wouldn't be that foolish. It wouldn't achieve anything. What would stop Yoda from going all out attack? That's what he was implying when he claimed how important it was to capture him.

What? Okay, he Force pushed Sids, and blocked some lightning. This isn't much different from the Dooku confrontation. In fact, he seemed just the same - especially in lightsaber combat. If anything, Yoda was trying harder in AOTC from what I saw on-screen! Yoda was jumping from wall to wall.

Obviously, Yoda would preferred to have captured Dooku instead of killing him, but if the opportunity presented itself, and Yoda had no other alternative, then he would've killed him. The Sidious duel was more intense because more was at stake. If Sidious fell, the Empire fell. That was a massive burden, but Yoda didn't treat the fight any differently. He fought the same.

 

Why didnt he want to kill Dooku...like Obi Wan said...if we take down Dooku we can end this war

 

Dooku was a powerful swordsman, but he simply wasn't as powerful as Anakin. While Anakin did get his ass whipped in Aotc, he kills Dooku in Rots. Dooku was not holding back. Palpatine told Anakin to fight Anakin for real and if Anakin lost, he wouldn't be a suitable apprentice

 

Yeah, why bother killing Sith? Another one will "step forward instantly"! (???)
In fact, why do anything at all? Why even go outside? It's all so pointless!

 

Yoda's mandate was clear...stop Dooku from leaving. But that does not mean that he has to kill him. He can cut off his hands and take him into custody. Dooku and Yoda just paused for a moment and Yoda complimented his former Padawan. Dooku then chose to fled as help was coming and he knew that he needed to get going now, or risk being blowing it all.