Lit Dooku

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I wanted to discuss Dooku the character, mainly his characterization in Dark Rendezvous and ROTS novelization, I feel they go really well together. DR sets the stage with showing how fearful and used he feels of Palpatine, and how deep down a part of him still loved Yoda. Could he truly have been redeemed at that point? Then once he crosses the threshold into ROTS he still feels that together he and Palpatine will rule the galaxy. He seems to still have shreds of loyalty within him. Why wasn't he preparing a contingency to betray Palpatine at that point? He also shows fondness for Qui-Gon in wanting to honor his memory by taking Obi-Wan as his apprentice, he sees him as a "grandson". I find his character quite tragic, and even though he was a powerful and wise man who chose to make the wrong decisions, thing did not work out for him as planned.
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  2. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Dooku makes me angry.
    I do not enjoy discussing the topic of Dooku.

    The topic of Dooku reminds me of people who have something good and just don't appreciate it for what it's worth until it's gone.
    Because that's what George Lucas, Lucasfilm, LucasLicensing, and all those other Lucasy things did to him.
    They didn't know they had the winning lottery ticket of an awesome character shoved between the backseat cushions of their van.
    And then they sold the van to the dump, and we'll never see that lottery ticket again. No one will ever appreciate it.

    That is Dooku.

    He could have been an awesometasticamazing character, someone to make Liam Neeson actually feel like he had a purpose in these films, but no.

    They could have made him a political idealist and not a cackling manaic like AOTC promised. But no. AOTC lied. Never trust a movie with giant amorous fleacows.

    They could have even used the Christopher Lee card and had him pair up - or rather against - Tarkin. But no. Even TCW dropped the ball on that one. Those uncultured fiends.

    So no, I don't want to discuss the tragedy of what could have been the villain with the greatest potential this side of Episode VII. Because to discuss it is rather like hearing one's alarm turn on at 5:30 AM Monday morning on a 6-day work week.
  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    I think Dooku should have been unveiled to be a secret Anzati.
  4. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    One of my secret dreams is that someday there will be a trilogy about a military campaign fought between Tarkin and Dooku in the Seswenna sector. Throw in a little Dodonna and Tallon here, a little Sora Bulq there, a little Pellaeon and Kolar and Tholme and Mohc here, a little Iaco Stark and Pors Tonith and Nikkos Tyris and Calli Trilm there.

    COME ON LFL USE YOUR CAST.
  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Dooku should have had a secret career as a metal vocalist.
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  6. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Unless you missed all teasers, once you saw his red lightsaber you knew where he stood. I do agree he had a lot of potential and gets used just as PalpatineĀ“s proxy in the other side.

    QGJ had a purpose, showing one decent PT Jedi, and who could have successfully trained Anakin.
  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    I think Qui-Gon Jinn is the platonic ideal of a Jedi in the sense that he's what the Jedi order once was, should be, and will be again under Luke's guidance.
  8. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    I personally think he's one of the best characters to come out of the Prequel Trilogy. I feel both Dark Rendezvous and the Revenge of the Sith Novelization are instrumental to understanding Count Dooku as a character. The first I believe humanizes him in a major way, because like Darth Vader, for quite a while we knew nothing about his past. We knew he was a respected Jedi Master who then turned on his friends, became a Sith Lord, and helped start a galaxy spanning war. DR's one of the few works to portray him in his younger years and show that, like again with Vader, he wasn't always the person he is now. It shows and highlights his close relationship with Yoda, as well as some of the fears he had in childhood, some of which he still has today. The climax of his confrontation with Yoda I think shows him caught between two rocks, one being Yoda and the other being Sidious. At the end he fails to return to the Light and enters into a duel with Yoda once he learns of Anakin and Obi-Wan's presence on the planet. I feel this highlights another aspect of his character, his jealousy and rage. Dooku doesn't like Anakin. From the mechanical arm to the quick temper he doesn't care for the boy at all. It's possible that had Anakin not been there he may have turned back to the light.

    Putting aside Anakin's physical and emotional flaws, another reason Dooku dislikes him is quite simply due to envy. I don't remember where, but there's a work that highlights Dooku's thoughts and feelings on the prophecy of the Chosen One. When it comes down to it, all the qualities he feels the Chosen One should possess are those that he happens to have. The description fits him to a T. He wants to be the Chosen One, feels that he's simply destined for greatness. This can even be seen in ROTS when he muses on Sidious "plan" for a Sith Army and his capture by Anakin. He also thinks about how even in capturing him Anakin will never understand how much better Dooku is than him, how he is the trust master, how his greatness has always gone unrecognized. This here, this vanity and egotism, is a flaw in Dooku's character, and like with Anakin's anger led to him falling to the Dark Side.

    If there's one aspect of Dooku's past that I feel could use some expansion it's his relationship with Qui-Gon. We know they respected and cared for each other, and Qui-Gon clearly took after Dooku in some ways, but we've hardly ever seen them during their time as Master and Student, whereas Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had an entire series built around them, as did Obi-Wan and Anakin. And both partnerships have appeared in numerous other works.
  9. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    I always admired the character of Dooku for being very complex. His story is actually very much like Anakin's. Not sure if you know of his background, but he was actually old enough to know of his noble heritage when he became a part of the Jedi Order. Aside from being tremendously gifted (at one point he was considered the Chosen One), he was also a maverick just like Qui-Gon. He was sent on missions that resulted in innocent deaths which disillusioned him from the Jedi Order. He was very aware of the corruption within the Republic and hated how the Jedi blindly followed it. There is a lot of debate that when he left the order, he actually did so with good intentions on changing the Republic himself; he felt frustrated with the Jedi in matters involving both the Republic and the Sith (the death of Qui-gon was the last straw and also saddened him greatly). In fact, there was even melancholy in his voice when he said to Obi-wan: "Qui-Gon would have never gone along with it... I wish he were still alive, I could really use his help right now..."
    Just like with Anakin, Sidious took advantage of him. Dooku's intent to give the Jedi a wake-up call and to reform the Republic were the strings Sidious used to make Dooku dance. He made Dooku believe that their interests were mutual and sealed the deal when he showed Dooku that the power the dark side could provide him a way to achieve his goals. I think at this point, power corrupted him, and led to his fall from grace (mirroring Anakin's contract with the devil in ROTS) when he killed his best friend Sifo-Dyas. The power he gained I think, fed some of his fatal flaws that Yoda had tried to steer him away from in his youth such as pride and arrogance which he basically showed in his duel with Yoda at the end of AOTC. Sidious again took advantage of these flaws to make Dooku feel essential and indispensable; I think Dooku always thought of himself and Sidious as a partnership with aligned interests rather than Master/apprentice.
    Even still, I think that Dooku could have been redeemed just as Anakin was redeemed. In Dark rendezvous, Yoda meets with Dooku at the end and offers Dooku to come back to the light. Dooku actually was on the verge of saying yes before he saw Anakin and Obi-wan barge in and took that as an ambush as he was supposed to meet with Yoda only(although Yoda didn't know they were there).
    In the ROTS novelization, Dooku's death scene is almost tragic. It depicts his death as a metaphor to an execution where all the things he valued in himself such as his pride, strength, knowledge, charisma, etc are the weights attached to him that pull down his neck before the blade. He dies as a cog to Sidious' plans which is actually sad considering the fact that he didn't have to be a cog. He had all the affluence and charisma necessary to do huge things but fell a long way. Even his death in the movie is symbolic: Anakin holding a Jedi and Sith blade to Dooku's throat represents the two paths Anakin has before him and that he chooses the Sith when his blades uncross. Here is a particularly apt, short clip showing Dooku's death from Anakin:
    Last edited by Komodo9Joe, Sep 1, 2013
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  10. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    Dooku's my favourite character of the prequels, edging out Boss Nass. The thing is, this is based on a) Christopher Lee being brilliant and b) my own willingness to take the character concept proffered by Episode II with both hands and do everything possible in my interpretation of subsequent material and my 'headcanon', if that's the term I want, to ensure the character lives up to that potential, despite being given very little to work with. Much like my fondness for the prequels themselves, it's at times frustrating that I have to do so much of what I might term the heavy lifting myself, with only ocassional support from LFL's output. You've no idea what a relief Yoda: Dark Rendevous was.

    Lighter note: at the time of Attack of the Clones, my little sister kept calling him 'Count Dougal', leading to two family injokes: the first about this fellow
    [IMG]
    holding a lightsaber in his mouth to duel Zebedee (obviously Yoda) and the second being Christopher Lee intoning "I DON'T SUPPOSE YOU HAVE ANY SUGAR LUMPS?"
  11. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    @DarthJenari I think its in Darth Plageuis that Dooku surmises that he may be the Chosen One.
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    The WOTC Star Wars Roleplaying Game Revised Core Rulebook is the source which states that Dooku believes himself to be the Chosen One.

    Indeed, he suspects that the prophesied "one who would bring balance to the Force" is not some tow-headed child from Tatooine, but a seasoned philosopher -- a man of sharp insight and solid character with the clarity to see the path to galactic enlightenment and the titanic willpower to walk it, and most important, the leadership to carry others along with him. Someone like himself.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 1, 2013
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  13. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I love Count Dooku as a character, but it's late and I doubt I can do this topic justice tonight.

    I will say this, however. Ventress has a line in DR that basically says "He will use you up, Count."

    She says that Sidious is using Dooku, and will keep using him until his usefulness has come to an end. And she's right.

    Sidious manipulates Dooku and uses his wealth to fund the Separatists, uses his reputation to create the secessionists, his skills to fight the Jedi,and at the end, uses the only thing Dooku has left, his life, to turn Anakin to the dark side and obtain a new apprentice.

    Dooku was played by Sidious like a fiddle. A real pity, as Dooku did have some redeeming traits.
  14. stung4ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 3
    As I see it, for all his power, for all his arrogance, for all his nobility, deep down, Dooku knows one thing: he's outclassed.

    He's afraid when Yoda shows up in AOTC. He blusters, hoping that his progression in the decade will put him beyond Yoda. And he has to run because he's no match Yoda. He's also completely terrified at the notion of a Dark Side Yoda in Dark Rendezvous.

    He's afraid of Sidious. He knows that he can't beat Palpy in a straight up confrontation, and Sidious is such a schemer, Dooku has to assume Sidious has a counter for any double cross by Dooku.

    So Dooku will be the "good" apprentice. He'll go along with Sidious's plans. If someone does, by some off chance, take down Sidious, Dooku will step up to be the master. And if not, he'll be the number 2 most powerful man in the galaxy.
    Last edited by stung4ever, Sep 1, 2013
  15. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I feel that Dooku shares that feeling with Vader. That feeling that comes from knowing he's quite simply outmatched when it comes to Palpatine, and therefore never even attempts to rebel, never even thinks of it except in his most private moments. One such moment occurs in Laybrinth of Evil when the Jedi are on Sidious trail. Dooku thinks about betraying him for just a moment before letting informing him of current events.
  16. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I've always found the Chosen One envy off putting. It makes sense, because Anakin has what he wants, is who he wants to be, but still distasteful.

    It makes me think what Dooku always makes me think, "dude, you're better than this!"
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Dooku was just sad in Dark Rendezvous.

    In Plagueis, he was shown to be disgruntled with the corruption in the Republic; that angle should have been played up better in the films. If Lucas had planned ahead, he could have shown this in TPM.

    The Plagueis scene in which Knight Jinn embarrasses the hell out of Dooku is funny though.
  18. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Surely, you must also add Garm Bel Iblis into the mix! :)
  19. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    So, whilst Dooku may think he is Jesus Christ, he is actually Simon Magus???
  20. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1

    I don't think Dooku is outclassed at all. He is said to be the most powerful Jedi along with Masters Yoda and Mace Windu and the Sith Lord, Darth Sidious. In fact, speaking purely from a position of resources and ability, one could argue Count Dooku is the most powerful being in the galaxy by the time he takes the title Count, even more so than the Supreme Chancellor or the Jedi Council. He is affluent, charismatic, venerable, powerful, and has an army at his command. I think that Dooku would have been the biggest threat to Sidious if he had stayed with the light.

    Yoda did not beat Dooku. The two masters fought to a draw and Dooku fled because of Republic reinforcements arriving shortly. His prime objective since he left the CIS control room was to escape, not to fight. When Obi-wan and Anakin confronted him, he was forced to fight them before fleeing. We even see Dooku turning to his ship after he defeats Anakin. With Yoda, I think that initially, Dooku arrogantly thought that he could defeat Yoda quickly with his dark side powers but then realized that was not the case. He knew he was running out of time and he was right as we see Padme and clone troopers arrive at the hangar later. He was not running from the fight because of his inferiority to Yoda, but because common sense dictated that reinforcements would come and the numbers would stack the odds against them.

    I think that the actual underlying reason Dooku does not turn on Sidious is because he thinks of the man as his partner in reforming the galaxy. Moreover, the Count unwisely trusts him up until Sidious discards him. He comes to Sidious with intentions of reforming the galaxy and Sidious likely said to him that his plan will do that, so Dooku follows Sidious' lead. Although Dooku himself is a master manipulator, Sidious bests him in this category: Sidious is using Dooku's intentions and psyche to make him feel as if they are singing the same tune.

    I think that an important detail overlooked in Dark Rendezvous, is Palpatine/Sidious. In the book, Palpatine asks Mace to send Anakin and Obi-Wan to check up on Yoda because I think he knew that Dooku could be turned to the light, but Dooku seeing the Jedi might make him feel deceived (and would again remind him of his disliking for the Chosen One). In fact, during the climax of the book, when Yoda extends his hand to Dooku and beckons him to come back, Sidious sends Dooku a message to basically remind Dooku of his Sith allegiance. Sidious knows Dooku can be turned back and had to take the aforementioned precautions to stop any chance of it happening.

    One of the scary things about Sidious is that he understands you. Like the Devil he represents, he understands your assets and flaws and the strings in you that he can pluck to make you resonate with him. He even does this to Yoda: he understands that the old Master is too set in tradition and Jedi orthodox to accommodate for changing times.
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    How ironic, she could see what Sidious was doing to Dooku but couldn't see what Dooku was doing to her.
  22. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But that mindset goes directly against what it means to be a Sith apprentice. I think Palpatine allowed him to believe they would abolish the rule of two and therefore there would be no reason to betray each other. Still in the CW comic when he orders Quinlan Vos to kill the Senator in front of him, I think he was referring to Palpatine. I think that was an effort to betray his master.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I'm guessing here, but I think her desire for full acceptance into the Sith may have blinded her to Dooku's actions, as she may have seen him as her only pathway to that acceptance.

    I need to read DR again.
  24. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1

    Ventress doesn't comprehend how far down she is on the totem pole; it's laughable that she could think of herself as anything more than a cog. Grievous is the military commander, Dooku is the public leader and the face of the Separatist resolve, and Sidious is the pure evil that lurks in the shadows behind the movement.
    But Ventress?
    At most, she is highly skilled colonel and perhaps a suggestion to the Jedi that Dooku is indeed the master and Sidious does not exist. Ventress turns to the dark side because of her personal hurt and the fact that she can touch the Force. I think she is depicted very well in Dark Rendezvous in which Ventress has a monologue to Whie where she describes the universe in unfortunately, the way it has treated her: with suffering and loss and no way to stop it.

    "My first Master was a Jedi. The Order abandoned him to torment and death. It's not a club I'm eager to join."(p. 226-227)

    I actually think she desires becoming a Sith Lord because it would bring some meaning into her life, rather than her just being a Force-attuned and embittered person to the universe. She empathizes more with the Dark Side than the Light Side because her life has been filled with pain and loss. The Dark Side offers her power to both avoid more pain and suffering and to teach others the meaning of pain and suffering. In her conversation with Whie, she's literally trying to 'open his eyes' in her view: "I give you the gift of my own heartbreak"(p. 229)

    It's easy to not care about others and the misfortunes of life when you turn to the Dark Side. The Dark Side focuses solely on the self: without compassion, who cares about others losing lives? And for that matter, without compassion, one no longer minds taking lives. I think this is what Yoda described to Whie about Ventress in his line:
    "Asajj eats the darkness and the darkness eats her back" (p. 264)
    She is a product of the darkness and later becomes an instrument of the darkness by spreading suffering across the galaxy.
    Last edited by Komodo9Joe, Sep 2, 2013
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Seconded. Especially if they bring back the appropriate authors to write it.

    Zahn & Stackpole writing the "Dark Jedi Uprising" - tying in the events seen in flashback in I, Jedi and the events mentioned in Heir to the Empire, I suspect could do a great story.