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Lit Dooku

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I have a lot of sympathy for Ventress. She has some of the ****tiest luck of any character in the franchise, at least the characters I'm familiar with. As you said, she empathizes more with the Dark Side because her life has been filled with pain and loss--and when that's what someone has known, it is far more difficult for that person to feel empathy or compassion. How can a person feel what he or she has rarely been shown?

    But whether Ventress should have thought of herself as more than anything but an assassin, it is certainly understandable that she wanted to consolidate more power for herself so that she could have some measure of control of her own life. She had learned that no one would look after her if she didn't look after herself, and more power better enables her to take care of herself.

    I found Dooku more sympathetic in Dark Rendezvous as well. He remembered his mother, and he was given to the Jedi not for the reasons that Anakin was--to have a better life--but because his mother didn't want him. He was abandoned, and at the end of the book, he finds himself alone again due to his rejection of Yoda's offer (or in his mind, his inability to accept it), walking on a beach.
     
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  2. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 1, 2013

    Back to the OP, I absolutely think that Dooku could be redeemed. In Dark Rendezvous, we're clearly shown a Dooku on the verge of accepting Yoda's offer.

    Dooku's character is akin to a Greek tragedy. He starts out with so much promise and dies an ignominious death. Let's actually take a moment to examine the first chapter of Dooku's life.

    His Jedi life:
    Dooku is introduced to the Jedi at a later age than most others. Throughout Dooku's life, one can see many similarities with Anakin Skywalker. Dooku is old enough to not come into the Order as a tabula rasa: he apparently holds some notions of hubris and arrogance that befit the Counts of Serenno. At a young age, Dooku becomes a victim of betrayal when his friend steals a Sith holocron. Nevertheless, Dooku is highly gifted and is head and shoulders above his fellow learners; his prowess adds to his own hubris and arrogance to the point where he sees himself as the person described in the Prophecy of the Chosen One. But even though he might be prideful, this is not the source of Dooku's disillusionment with the Republic: the Jedi are.

    Dooku sees and experiences the corruption in the Republic. He is sent on missions to fight for the wrong side simply because the Senate orders it so. And when he raises his objections to the Jedi, they fall on deaf ears. But still, Dooku doesn't give up on the Jedi Order. He continues serving it for several more years because he feels that is the right thing to do, that he is still upholding a just cause. The loss of his student, Qui-Gon, must have shaken him in many ways. Not only was he losing his son in a way, the Jedi did not seem to be taking initiative to find the Sith; they were still waiting for the Chosen One to come along rather than doing something themselves. Dooku's frustration with the Senate and Jedi Order comes to its breaking point and he leaves both behind him. He sets out himself to actually change the galaxy for the better.

    Now for the first 70 years of his life, how can anyone say Dooku is an 'evil' person? Which part of Dooku's Jedi life is he doing the wrong thing? He tolerated the Republic's flaws for several years and saw many people suffer because of it until he could no longer stay with the Jedi.
     
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  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the difference between the Dooku in fans heads is as far apart from the one in canon that Boba Fett has gone through w/ Traviss and other sources.

    It's also interesting to note that a lot of the assumptions about Dooku (he'd never betray Sidious, he's an idealist, and so on) get taken to their natural conclusion in the Clone Wars with him starting his own plans of ovethrowing Palpatine. It's why I always felt The Clone Wars had a vaguely fan-fic esque feel (which isn't a bad thing). I.e that the story got taken to places it didn't go in the movies or other EU.

    My take on Dooku is he's not actually all that sympathetic a character. He's a collossally arrogant Jedi master, much like Saruman (who Lee seemed to be channeling out of, perhaps, a bit of laziness). He thinks he's going to take over the galaxy with Sidious but he intends to replace him eventually. His flaw is that he really thinks he's the hero but fell the moment someone started puffing up his ego.

    He's basically an older Exar Kun or Xanatos if they stuck it out with the Jedi.
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I've also always seen Dooku as having a superiority complex. He's essentially a better written version of what Allston/Traviss/Denning were going for with Caedus.
     
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  5. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Agree with this. He strikes me as a guy who, even if he genuinely was an idealist or out for justice or angry at Republic corruption and Jedi inaction, always thought he was the one with all the answers and the one who should be in charge of correcting the system. (Becoming the leader of a revolution fits right into that).

    How much of what he's become by the time of the movies is still idealism and how much is pure ego, I don't know. His meeting with Yoda in Dark Rendez Vous was interesting, though. From what I remember, his opening bid was to start talking about what's wrong with the Republic and the Jedi, and how he wishes Yoda could see that he's fighting for the wrong side... and Yoda cuts him off like "seriously, lose the campaign speech, we both know it's a load of crap." And then moves the conversation onto the topic of the dark side. Then Dooku tries to come up with reasons why Yoda should join his side (which presumably would be the things he found appealing) - and it's pretty much what you'd expect from a Sith. He doesn't try to appeal to a higher purpose. He tells him to give in to his instincts ("stop lying to yourself" as he phrases it), he tells him that the dark side can bring him power, wealth, lovers, he tells him that he should be angry or afraid and give into those feelings. It's nothing like the Honorable Adversary public face he shows the galaxy, which to me means Yoda was probably right to dismiss it at the beginning of the conversation.

    (I haven't read the book in years, so if I'm misremembering or forgetting, corrections are welcome).
     
  6. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I still think compare to the movies and TCW, CW gave Dooku the most accurate portrayal, the movie didn't give him much time and TCW was a mess, let him went to the frontline too much.

    In CW he mostly stayed behind the stage and train others to work for him, at the same time showed very powerful skills during those trainings.
     
  7. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    Yeah that's how I see him best, along with the arrogance stated above. For all intents and purposes he's the Big Bad, the face and leader of the CIS. He really has no business being on the frontlines as much as he was. In a way, I think that's a major difference between him and Vader. The latter with get down in the grime and the muck and fight alongside his troops, slaughtering rebels with his own two hands. The former's a gentleman, far too cultured for something like that. He uses assassins and trainees to do the dirty work for him, only showing himself when its time for the conclusion of a plan, such as the Battle of Coruscant.

    Charlemagne19 I also agree with you, Dooku's incredibly arrogant and always was. That's not to say he doesn't/didn't have his good and admirable qualities, but arrogance has been a part of his character since childhood. Perhaps he did truly see the corruption in the Republic and believe something he needed to be done about it, but he was arrogant enough to believe that the Dark Side was the path to peace, regardless of the havoc it could wreak on the average person's life. And in general he doesn't seem to have ever held any non-human in high esteem, save perhaps Yoda. If anything, I think that for his entire life he kept on a mask in front of the Jedi Order, and only dropped it once he'd left. The only time I ever felt slightly bad for him was when Sidious told Anakin to kill him.
     
  8. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I think Dooku is quite similar to Saruman, they both thought only power could bring justice and defected from their order. Both had great charisma and influence to gather men to work for them.
     
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  9. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 1, 2013
    I keep hearing the word 'arrogant' being thrown around to describe Dooku but can that be said about him when he was a Jedi?

    The answer to that is no. You can make a case for it and I'd be happy to discuss it with you but Dooku, as a Jedi, was in fact very much ahead of his peers. You might ask, what made him ahead of his peers?

    It's the fact that he realized the Republic was corrupt. The Jedi still deemed the Republic worth serving but that itself is a disservice when the institution has become corrupt. Throughout the whole prequel trilogy, the Republic is a sham. The Senators are corrupt, businesses like the Trade Federation are able to buy themselves representation, the Chancellor's hands are tied by bureaucrats and special interests, etc.

    Just look at the Senate scene in TPM: when everybody should be discussing the outright crime the Trade Federation has committed in invading a sovereign system, the Senate is proposing dishonest 'investigations' into the matter and other time-wasting formalities.

    Dooku took a right step in opposing the Republic. In fact, Mace and Yoda come to realize in the ROTS novel that to "save the Republic, they will have to destroy it."
    Obi-Wan even states at the end of Dark Lord how the people allowed democracy to die.

    Dooku's resolve in dealing with very serious problems in the system is something that needed to be done.. However, he, like Anakin, fell from grace, when he met with Sidious who took advantage of his good intentions and twisted them into something terrible. The real problem has always been Darth Sidious. Of course, Dooku was arrogant when he was a Sith: how can a Dark Side user not be when the Dark side is all about the self? And sure he might have had feelings of arrogance while a Jedi, but he controlled them and stood with the Jedi for nearly twenty years before his defect.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well there's been a lot of Pre-Sith Dooku write-ups.

    * The Dooku write-ups by Jude Watson make him a junior sociopath who Qui-Gon Jinn became an opposition to.

    * Mathew Stover writes Dooku as an adult sociopath whose lack of compassion and racism were mistaken for non-attachment (which is an awesome zinger).

    * There's also "Open Seasons" which is the only one where he actually seems to have been semi-decent as a Jedi Master and horrified by needless bloodshed.

    Even then, that may be because the Mandalorians killed a bunch of HIS Jedi.

    * The Plagueis novel is the only one where he actually seems semi-serious and even then he's a giant dink.

    BTW--random factoid. I think Count Dooku actually resembles Joruus C'boath as depicted by Zhan in TTT.

    "An arrogant Jedi Master who declared himself one and was advisor to Senator Palpatine."
     
  11. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I think Dooku was much like Qui Gon Jinn when he was a Jedi while he's a bit arrogant.
     
  12. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    You can trace his start of darkness moment directly to his arrogance and jealousy, where after being confronted by his old "friend" Lorian Nod he goes to the temple archives and begins delving into the history/teachings of the Sith specifically because Nod taunted him about the fact he hadn't seen it but Nod had, and he believed that as a Jedi Master he had nothing to worry about and could look as deeply into the darkness as he wished.

    Also, I wouldn't describe Dooku as ahead of his peers because he made a realization, and then came to the wrong conclusion. The Republic was indeed corrupt, and change was needed, but taking that and then deciding to start a galactic scale war doesn't equal progressiveness. Even Mace and Yoda only spoke of having to change things because they feared the head of the government was being controlled by the Sith, in which case they'd have no choice but to remove him. They weren't planning on killing various senators or other beings and forcing them to do what they wanted.

    Saying he wasn't arrogant cut controlled it doesn't make him not arrogant lol.
     
  13. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    Next to Stewart's Dooku, Luceno's and Stover's are nothing.
     
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  14. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    To be fair to Stover, he gives Dooku quite a bit of time for how long he's in the film and his role in the film.
     
  15. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    I thought that with just a few chapters he gave us one of the best and most concise looks of Dooku as a person.
     
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  16. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    I don't find Dooku disappointing at all. I only wish he got his own novel.

    He got a beautiful death scene and the evil in that scene was oozing off Palpatine. I loved the imagery of the light and dark sabers crossed against his throat. I liked that he was hyped up but ultimately ended up as a throwaway pawn. Because that's how the sith work.
     
  17. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    My issue with Stover!Dooku is just how unrepentantly racist and xenophobic he is. I'm not sure why the Big Bads have to be racist and xenophobic in addition to manipulative, treacherous, and cruel. Not to invoke Godwin, but Hitler loved dogs and discouraged smoking. "Evil" people don't have to be literally made of vice.
     
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  18. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 1, 2013

    Looking into something is not arrogance though. It's curiosity which Dooku himself has admitted: he was curious about the Dark Side since his youth.

    Heh, your right though. My last statement does admit that he might have been intrinsically arrogant. I was just tired of seeing people write Dooku off as only 'arrogant' and simply operating from superiority and pride.

    But Dooku was ahead of his peers in that he concluded something needed to be done and arguably, rebuilding society might have been the only way to do it. The other Jedi did nothing, they allowed the Republic to remain corrupt, pinning their hopes on the 'Chosen One'. Furthermore, they still blindly served a corrupt government. Dooku did come to a right conclusion but he went awry.

    In the ROTS novelization, Mace and Yoda are clearly realizing that the Republic needs to reformed. Reformation does not require killing; it just requires the disestablishment and reestablishment of government. The Republic had become so corrupt that they finally, finally, realize action is necessary:

    "Filled with corruption, the Senate is, Yoda agreed from Kashyyk. Controlled they must be until replace the corrupted Senator can be, with Senators honest and --"
    "Do you hear us?" Mace lowered his head into his hands. "How have we come to this? Arresting a Chancellor. Taking over the Senate--! It's as though Dooku was right--to save the Republic, we'll have to destroy it...."(288)

    Mace and Yoda are not only trying to take action against Palpatine but also against the fraudulent Senators that now control a majority!
     
  19. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I don't think let Dooku being xenophobic was Stover's idea, Lucas wanted him to be that way.
     
  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I want a Dooku novel set in the years leading up to AOTC showing how the CIS came to be.
     
  21. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    Indeed. Or a dual QGJ and Dooku book. If you don't think it will sell DR then combine it!
     
  22. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 1, 2013
    Nice signature. It's one of many great lines from that book.
     
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  23. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    As I said though, any Jedi or Force User operating under the assumption that they can delve into the Dark Side and not risk corruption is arrogance.

    I admitted he saw the problem that was the Republic's stagnation, but came to the wrong conclusion as to how it should be handled. Rebuilding society doesn't require you go to the Dark Side, become a Sith Lord, and start a Galactic War that will cost millions of lives, especially when the other Sith Lord has specifically been working for decades to speed up the decline of said government. However, he certainly wasn't the only person, Jedi or non-Jedi, to see that the Republic had grown corrupt. Numerous people throughout the PT Era have noted it.

    Yet they're still not talking about killing said senators. Even, in terms of destroying the Republic, nothing suggests they were talking about anything other than reforms. The same type of reforms that took place 1,000 years prior after the Brotherhood of Darkness was destroyed.
     
  24. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 1, 2013

    I would like one written by Matthew Stover because we will then not only be guaranteed a magnificent book, but an equally magnificent insight into Dooku's mind. I really hope Luceno isn't tasked as the author. I'm not sure why this guy gets so much laudation...probably because the material he writes about is interesting.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    He's the most continuity minded guy.

    Personally, I like that all his prequel novels: Cloak, Plagueis, Labyrinth, and Dark Lord all tie together in ways. It works insofar as that since he deals so heavily with Sidious, you can see what his plans were behind the scenes and what he's been doing.

    Plus The Unifying Force was a satisfying conclusion to the NJO and his Agents of Chaos duology was a great nod to Daley.
     
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