main
side
curve

Lit Dooku

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    A novel of Dooku& Qui Gon and Sifo Dyas would be awesome.

    Do you guys think he will hate Maul if he knew Maul was alive due to the death of Qui Gon Jinn?
     
  2. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    Ah, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about Dooku during his Sith years, but of his intent to reform the Republic as a Jedi/post-Jedi. As a Jedi/post-Jedi, I believe he would have been more inclined to try a non-violent method of reforming the Republic, perhaps by using his vast resources to organize a Confederacy that would try a diplomatic approach and convince the people to see that change is necessary. It's not that he would just note it, but that he would actively act to improve the system.

    While I think the Jedi might try their best to peacefully remove particular politicians, I think it would get pretty ugly as a corrupt Senator is hardly ready to relinquish power. And given the fact the corrupt Senators are in the majority in the government, one could even expect a war against the Jedi.
     
  3. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    Among the books you mentioned I have read Darth Plagueis, Labyrinth of Evil, and Dark Lord.

    I find Luceno's writing too descriptive, and not rich enough. I agree he is very vast in his knowledge of the Star Wars universe and clearly shows it. But in a novel, I prefer that we get a chance to deeply look into characters and concepts rather than a scene by scene of what happens. In my opinion, Stover's writing in contrast, is akin to a beautifully woven tapestry: he engages the reader to peer into the minds, decisions, and problems faced within the characters, touts the EU enough to please readers who like references to other novels, and has the capability to write incredible fighting scenes and characterization.

    Would you take Luceno over Stover writing a book?
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004

    Nope.
     
  5. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    I haven't seen anything in the character to agree with you. Because for me, Dooku leaving the Order is directly tied to the Republic's corruption. That's the point where it became too much and he left. That's also around the time that he became a Sith Lord, and even before then he was thinking about meeting and working with a Sith Lord. While as a Jedi we don't really know what his thoughts were on reformation. We only know the path he eventually settled on. No one forced him to become a Sith. He actively sought the title out and asked for it, claimed it. So i'd say the path he settled on is exactly the one he wanted.

    Similar to the case with Dooku there's no way to really say how the Jedi would have gone about reforming the Republic, especially because it was only 3 Jedi at the time kind of spitballing various ideas and facts that were randomly coming up in a conversation about Palpatine.
     
  6. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    Honestly I don't think so, because he didn't hate Palpatine, even though logically he can realize that Palpatine's the one who trained Maul. Palpatine's also the same man who's manipulated the government he loves and has sped up it's descent into chaos. He certainly has no love for Maul, having once referred to him as an animal, but i've seen nothing to indicate he hated him.
     
  7. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    I believe it's stated that Dooku initially wanted to track down and destroy the second Sith. And I believe it's also stated that Sidious approached him not the other way around. They talked for a bit and Sidious led Dooku to believe that they had similar interests.

    Actually, Yoda spoke on controlling and replacing the Senators and Mace holds a 'we're going to have to intervene in government' line of thought which are pretty indicative of what the Jedi would be forced to do.
     
  8. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    He did want to overthrow Palpatine.
     
  9. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    That's countered in Darth Plagueis, where at the end of the novel Dooku and Palpatine are having a discussion and Dooku mentions he plans to hunt down Sidious. Palpatine asks if he plans to kill him and he answers that he plans to ally with him, as the Sith apparently want the Republic brought down just as much as he does. (I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it.) Dooku also admits here that he wishes to learn the secrets of the Dark Side. Palpatine doesn't reveal himself here or anything, but it's made very clear where things are going. The most Dooku says in terms of destroying the Sith is that he thought about the idea but discarded it. So again, no one forced him to turn to the Dark Side. It's something he himself wanted. Before he knew Palpatine was a Sith, or who the other Sith was, he wanted to work with him.

    Yes, but again those are vague statements. Controlling alone can be taken multiple ways, from simply controlled debates to forced acceptance. None of what they say goes into depth into what plans they'd have to make. They only have the beginnings of an idea that's never expanded upon.
     
  10. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    Yeah, but that didn't seem to have anything to do with him hating Palpatine, but more of it being the way the Sith operate.
     
  11. AdmiralWesJanson

    AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Yes. I liked Plageus, cloak of deception, and Dark Lord far more than I did Mindor.
     
  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Is that the only Stover novel which you've read?
     
  13. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    I have read Darth Plagueis but you incorrectly described the gist of that scene. Firstly, let me say I think Luceno is too keen upon filling in gaps. The scene your referring to does say Dooku is giving thought to tracking down the second Sith, followed by him saying he doesn't feel that's enough. He simply confides to Palpatine his curiosity with the Dark Side but this is not absolute; Palpatine even muses this might be an attempt to lure Sidious out. After this, the book ends without following up on the actual seduction.

    The statements are not vague; it is pretty clear that Yoda and Mace are planning on taking forceful action and they articulate on how they plan to do it.
     
  14. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013
    This is surprising and frankly unbelievable. I can't see how Stover's work could be second to anyone but I haven't read Mindor yet so for now, I'm just voicing my incredulity.
     
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm okay with High Human Culture Dooku because I'm of the mind racism stems from a fundamental insecurity about oneself. Dooku believes in aristocracy, privilege, rulership by birthright, and human speciesm all because he is desperately in need of self-validation. Stover's write-up is a depiction of a man who wants desperately to be "The Guy" and Palpatine is "The Guy" that Dooku hangs around with. It's why he wants the Jedi Order to be the Sith Order because he wants them to be nobility with him at the head.

    In short, all of Dooku's flaws boil down to him being a bully. A bully who wants to be the top dog but secretly fears he's not.

    If someone created a Christopher Lee-lookalike supremecist league, Dooku would join that because it makes him feel better about himself.
     
  16. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    You're free to think what you will of Luceno, doesn't make his work any less canon. And you're wrong on all other counts.

    Darth Plagueis, pg 458, conversation between Dooku and Palpatine.

    "Eventually I will find him--or her---and with any fortune before the Jedi do.

    To avenge the death of Master Qui-Gon.

    The thought preoccupied me for some time, but no longer."

    That's not him giving thought. That's him having given thought at some point in the past, but now come to a decision, and decided not to avenge Qui-Gon's death by killing the second Sith. At no point does he say he doesn't feel that would be enough, because he again has already decided not to do it before the conversation ever started.

    From there, Darth Plagueis, pg 459

    "Then why seek this one.

    Because I suspect that Naboo was only the beginning--a kind of opening salvo. The Sith want to see the Republic brought down. Much as you and I do.

    But to ally with a Sith....

    For many they are the embodiment of pure evil, but the council knows differently. What separates a Sith from a Jedi is the way each approaches the Force. The Jedi Order has placed limits on itself, but the Sith have never shied away from incorporating the power of the dark side to accomplish their goals.

    You wish to learn the secrets of the dark side.

    I confess that I do."

    As you say, the book doesn't show the actual seduction, but then I never said it did. I stated that Dooku himself chose to become a Sith and wasn't forced into it. That he sought the Sith out of his own free will. Again, he wanted to ally with the Sith before ever knowing who the other Sith was. And honestly, i'd say that the last few lines make it clear its more than simple curiosity of the Dark Side, as he's actively talking about the power of it and stating he wants to learn about it. Not sure how that's not absolute.

    I don't think it's clear at all. It's clear they're ready to take some type of action, but exactly how they'd go about doing it again isn't gone into with any type of depth or planning. So I again don't think it's possible to make any solid guess on how they'd personally go about reforming the Republic. The most you can say is that they'd deal with the Senate for sure, but they again don't state how. They don't state whether they'd choose to kill senators, exile them, place them under house arrest, or simply hold debates until a conclusion was reached. They don't talk about the possibility of a revolt or how they'd deal with it. They don't really say anything accept the bare minimum, which I again don't take to be concrete evidence of how they'd go about reforming the Republic.
     
    Vialco likes this.
  17. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    Even so, Dooku came to the right conclusion in opposing the present government. His means of becoming a Sith and launching a Galactic War was not appropriate but the ends of which he was trying to meet, was. Mace and Yoda came to the same conclusion but 13 years later indicating that Dooku was indeed ahead of his fellow Jedi Masters in the appropriate resolve of reforming the Republic which you seem to agree with.

    No, their methods are clear but the systematic actions needed to effect their methods are given less clarity. But I have always argued the former and not the latter: that Yoda and Mace Windu articulated a plan to remove and replace certain Senators in an attempt to reform the Republic. If you are asking for my conjectures on the outcome of their aforementioned actions, I am happy to discuss, but what I am pressing upon you is that the ROTS novelization details the gist of their attempts to correct the system.
     
  18. squir1y

    squir1y Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2003
    One moment in the ROTS novelization that I found quite intriguing was Dooku's final thought before Anakin beheaded him: Treachery is the way of the Sith. He was experiencing a little 20/20 hindsight there, no doubt. And what it made it perfect is when you watch the scene in the film, it really looked like that was his final thought. Sidious was one conniving SOB.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Given we know Count Dooku was plotting to kill Sidious after being forced to kill Ventress, it's kind of interesting to speculate on that scene again. It becomes less about Dooku being stunned by his master's betrayal and more the realization he'd been outdone.

    Which is kind of sad as it removes Dooku's one bit of distinctiveness as the "Trusting Sith."
     
  20. AdmiralWesJanson

    AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    No, but it was my least favorite of the three. Traitor was OK, and I did really like Shatterpoint.
     
  21. Bib Fartuna

    Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    I believe under the confident exterior of Dooku, lies a complicated inferior man.

    Dooku is Fugu!

     
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  22. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Komodo9Joe Even so, you were wrong lol and now you're backtracking in the conversation. I made it clear a while back that Dooku's views on the Republic being corrupt were correct. You're the one who then started talking about how I was wrong when I said he was seeking to work with the Sith and wasn't forced to the Dark Side. I'll say it again because apparently I wasn't clear the first time. He decided that the government was corrupt and settled on reforming it, all well and good. However, as far as whatever form of reformation he may have originally had in mind, we have no idea what path he may have originally wanted to take. All we know about is what he eventually chose to do, embrace the Dark Side, become a Sith Lord, and start a Galactic War. So once again, i'd say the path he settled on is exactly the one he wanted, given that he knew full well what he was doing. However I wouldn't say he was really ahead of anyone, as many people seem to have realized that the Republic was becoming more corrupt, him being one of them. Darth Plagueis alone has Sifo Dyas apparently talking to Dooku about the idea of instigating dissent among the Republic due to said corruption.

    I'm not asking for anything from you. I'm outright stating, and i'll state it once more that in my opinion their statements are too vague to have any solid idea how they would have gone about reforming the government. You keep trying to change my mind for some reason, as if I didn't read and understand the novel, and you therefore have a better understanding of it than I do.
     
  23. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    That's one of my favorite passages from the novel. Kudos for using it!

    I really like that because it mirrors Palpatine's seduction of Anakin. I really like the end of the conversation where Dooku is pretty much saying

    "I know you're the Sith Lord and I want to be your apprentice."

    And Palpatine is all like:"It's raining today, how curious. The forecasts were for sunny skies."
     
  24. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Vialco What I enjoy most is that it's completely in character for Dooku. Similar to Palpatine's conversations with Anakin, where that if you already know Palpatine's a Sith Lord, you know full well what's going on, and you can see into his thoughts on the matter. However, unlike Anakin who had to be worked on from childhood, and manipulated, till he got to the point where it was choose Palpatine to save Padme or choose the Jedi and let Padme die (At least that's how he viewed it), Dooku doesn't need any of that. He's a scholar, a gentleman. Intelligent and cultured, he decides to look into the Dark Side and ally with the Sith, in the same way that any of us would choose where to work based on the benefits and the pay being offered. He makes the choice with full knowledge of what he's getting into, and I think that's wonderful, and it makes him different from both Maul and Vader.
     
    Vialco likes this.
  25. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013

    No, looking back, you described his horrible methods when he was a Sith. I stressed that he might have tried a better way of reforming the galaxy as a Jedi/post-Jedi. You countered with a passage from the Darth Plagueis novel depicting that even as a post-Jedi, he was attracted to the Dark Side and thus would have used the fitting means to bring up reformation. But even from that passage, there is a point in his Jedi/post-Jedi life that he did consider destroying Sidious. If what you are saying is that he chose the Dark Side, I agree and have never disputed that(I've looked back all my posts to confirm this). He was ahead of his peers because not only did he see the corruption, but he acted against it, although we can only speculate on what his initial methods might have been.

    I think you want a more detailed step-by-step answer in how the Jedi might have wanted to reform the Republic, but the Jedi did state their basic method: control and replace. But the overall point is that they finally realize that they have to do something against the government, 13 years after Dooku had come to the same conclusion.