Dooku's a DARK JEDI MASTER!? And he's a Sith too!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Mavrick889, Apr 8, 2002.

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  1. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    If they didn't think he was a Sith Lord, and they didn't think he was a Dark Jedi, what did they think he was? :confused:
  2. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    But they did believe he was a Sith lord. Mace reflexively stated that the Sith were extinct but that was more because he didn't buy Qui Gon's story than he thought there was some alternative group of Force users out there. He fully believed it was a Sith by the time he sent Qui Gon back to Naboo.

    Face it, folks, there's no room in Lucas' movie version of Star Wars for Dark Jedi. In the EU universe, it's all possible. So there's no problem.
  3. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Face it, folks, there's no room in Lucas' movie version of Star Wars for Dark Jedi

    Then what was Dooku before he allied with Palpatine? He wasn't a Jedi, as he had left the order, and he wasn't a Sith because he hadn't been recruited yet.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    Bib: It all depends on how fast he was recruited as a Sith Lord. Was it before he left or right after. Apparently it was before he left, as he erased Kamino.
  5. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Qui-Gon Jinn: He was well trained in the Jedi arts. My only conclusion is that he was a Sith Lord.

    Ki-Adi Mundi: Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.

    Mace Windu: I do not think the Sith could have returned without our knowledge.


    Soooo...
    The Council didn't seem to doubt that the "dark warrior" was Force sensitive, nor did they seem to doubt that the attacker was well-trained, as said attacker was able to make a seasoned Jedi Master quit the battlefield. What the Council DID seem to doubt was that the attacker was a Sith Lord.

    So let's ask the question again, from the POV of the Jedi Council:

    If he wasn't a Sith Lord, what was he?


  6. MetallicPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
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    If he wasn't a Sith Lord, what was he?

    He was a Sith Lord all along, the Council is just having trouble excepting it.
  7. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    For all we know Dooku could have been confronted by Palpatine after leaving the Jedi, Dooku realises he is a Sith and tried to kill him for what happened to QuiGon, fell to the Darkside in the process and became his apprentice. No need for Dark Jedi. Luke almost went from Jedi to Sith in an instant in ROTJ.
  8. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    He was a Sith Lord all along, the Council is just having trouble excepting it.

    There's about five or so days between Qui-Gon's visit to the Jedi Temple and when the Council arrives at Naboo, in which Mace tells Yoda ( presumably after compiling the evidence and talking to Obi-Wan )...

    MACE : There is no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith.

    At that moment, that was the final piece needed for the puzzle. But for several days, doubt was there.

    When looking at a pizza, does it take you several days to concretely define the difference between a pepparoni and linguica?

    He was a Sith Lord all along, the Council is just having trouble excepting it.

    Dooku was a Dark Jedi all along, the Purists are just having a hard time accepting it. ;)
  9. MetallicPea Jedi Master

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    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    True dat. When Dooku left the Jedi he was a Former Jedi. Like a priest leaving the church is a former priest, not a Dark Priest.
  10. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Have you ever seen a priest that has lightning fly out of his fingertips?

    Similiar thing, but not a perfect analogy.

    "Dark Jedi" is not a term easily thrown around.
  11. MetallicPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    No, but I've only heard of a Sith Lord shooting lightning out of his fingertips.
  12. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

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    Jul 2, 1999
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    I think the council had trouble accepting Qui Gon's story. Once they accepted that he was attacked by a Force user, they were positive it was a Sith. I mean what did Maul do during the 20 second battle that would have differentiated himself from a Dark Jedi? Nothing. Once Qui Gon convinced them that he did use the Force (in jumping around), they were sure he was Sith.
  13. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    MetallicPea wrote:
    "He was a Sith Lord all along, the Council is just having trouble excepting it."

    I know that we, the audience knew that he was a Sith Lord, and that the Council had trouble accepting it. What I'm saying is this: place yourself in the POV of a member of the Jedi Council. A Jedi Master comes before you and says that he just fought a Sith Lord. You don't believe that it was a Sith Lord. In order for it to NOT be a Sith Lord, there has to be an option in your mind that he was something else. My rhetorical question is what was that something else?

    Another way of looking at it is as if it were a multiple choice question. If choice (A) is Sith Lord, and you don't think that (A) is the correct answer, what are choices B, C, and so on?
  14. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    A way of looking at it was that the Council was simply sceptical of Qui-Gon's claim. After all, he appears claiming to have been attacked by a enemy who were presumed extinct for a thousand years, and to have found the Chosen One of prophecy to boot.
  15. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "In order for it to NOT be a Sith Lord, there has to be an option in your mind that he was something else"


    Or that Qui Gon's account wasn't reliable and he was just attacked by a guy good in martial arts. Notice they didn't stay skeptical for very long. They were just in momentary denial. There was no other dialogue before they totally accepted it. Now if there was offscreen dialogue, what could it have been? All Qui Gon could have told them is that the attacker did a Force jump. That's not unique to the Sith that I know of but it is unique to Force users.

    The only conclusion Qui Gon could make and the only thing he could tell the council is that it was a Force user. Based on that, everyone was convinced it was a Sith. It's the most logical assumption and certainly the simplist.

    I realize that no one's going to change anyone mind here but what the hell. :p
  16. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

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    At the time of the Council scene, there were 19 Jedi who had "in the modern age...resigned their commissions" (according to Jedi Fruit Rolls ;) which had a history on the Lost 20), not 20 since Dooku was still a few months away from leaving. Continuing with Jedi Merkurian, and the other choices...

    A) A Sith Lord
    B) One of the Lost 19 (at the time)
    C) New fallen Jedi (which can also be called a Dark Jedi for argument's sake, a Jedi who is still considered a Jedi, yet practices in the Dark Side, something you do not have to be a Sith to do)
    D) Unknown individual - new group; internal splinter faction; etc
    E) A padawan who abandoned the Order or was thought killed; a learner who never progressed to Padawan, and ran away - you get the idea

    The Sith are the most feared option and the most unbelievable of the choices presented, simply because they've been gone for 2 millenia.
  17. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    I have to chime in on this "Dark Jedi" thing. Here are the facts. Nowhere in the Star Wars movies is the term "Dark Jedi" used. What does that mean? It means that at this point Dark Jedi are not part of the Star Wars universe. Dark Jedi is a concept made up by the EU. Until that concept is mentioned in the movies it does not exist. As of right now there are Jedi and there are Sith. That is all. There is not even any proof for us to assume there are Dark Jedi. The only users of the Dark Side of the Force that we've seen have been Sith. Without any evidence of Dark Jedi it is completely illogical to assume they exist.
  18. MetallicPea Jedi Master

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    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    When Vader turns at the end of ROTJ is he a Jedi or a Light Sith?
  19. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

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    When I ban you for smarting off, are you sad or not happy? ;)
  20. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

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    He's a Jedi, maybe for the first time.
  21. darth_saul Jedi Master

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    Nov 22, 2001
    star 2
    I think what would simplify all of this is not whether the term "Dark Jedi" is valid or not. It matters little what you call a former jedi that now uses the dark side of the force. It is all semantics. I think what needs to be defined here is the word SITH.

    Is a Sith just someone who uses the dark side of the force, or is he a member of a religious sect that taps the dark side?

    What happens if a Jedi Knight is tempted to the dark side, not by a Sith, but just by the dark side itself? What if he uses the dark side and never joins the Sith? What would you call him? I think it is silly to assume that every jedi that ever used the dark side is a Sith.

    I doubt every person that is force sensitive is introduced to the Jedi order. Are they still Jedi? I don't think so.

    So, it stands to reason that if a Jedi falls to the dark side and does not allign himself with the Sith, then he is not a Sith. Is he then a Dark Jedi?

    It is all semantics. You can call him/her a "not so good jedi" for all I care. But, it is absurd to assume that only 20 jedi ever left the order, and only 20 were ever possibly tempted to the dark side. I don't buy it. Why would the temptation be so great for Luke if it rarely happens?

    Does all of this ranting make the term Dark Jedi canon? NO!

    But, purists should not stomp every idea that is not mentioned in the movie. The IDEA of a Dark Jedi is a reasonable one.

    What is a gundart? We never see one do we? No. Does Yoda ever use a lightsaber in any of the OT movies? Do we see him with one? Does he mention having one? NO!! But, we use our imagination. Alot of Star Wars is imagination, and that is what makes it fun. Both purists and EU'rs need to remember this when slamming each other's ideas.

    I am actually more of a purist than not, I really have no time for EU, but I think it is obnoxious for you guys to string out this canon crapola everytime somebody mentions something that changes the way you vieew your precious SAGA.

    Thanks alot. :D
    Have a nice day.

  22. Damillster Jedi Master

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  23. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

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    Jul 2, 1999
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    The thing is though, as far as we know, Dooku and Anakin are the only Jedi to turn to the Dark Side.
  24. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    Why is it ridiculous that only 20 Jedi ever left the Jedi order? Don't they say that in EP2 when they talk about the Lost 20? Maybe I'm off base here but I thought it was fairly clear that those were the only 20 to ever leave the order. Now onto another point. Perhaps the temptation to turn to the darkside is so great for look because he's young, not fully trained, and he has the most manipulative and clever dude (Palpatine) in the galaxy trying to convert him to the ways of the Sith. They already saw his father go down the same path. There's a reason that people say like father like son.
  25. MetallicPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    The thing is though, as far as we know, Dooku and Anakin are the only Jedi to turn to the Dark Side.

    And that's what makes it so shocking.
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