Dooku's a DARK JEDI MASTER!? And he's a Sith too!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Mavrick889, Apr 8, 2002.

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  1. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Padme...
    "And to me, the novel is EU, except the parts justified on the screen, so Genghis12's diatribe is wasted on me."

    Well, then it's not wasted because that whole part IS on the screen. It's in the:
      DARTH SIDIOUS and DARTH MAUL look out over the vast city...
    scene on Coruscant. However, because the viewer is unable to read Maul's thoughts, we unfortunately can't know what he's thinking at the time. However, like Lucas telling us that Vader was a Sith outside the movies for the OT, he also tells us what Maul was thinking about outside the movies for the PT. The only way you can prove this was not justified is if you can show cases where we get into people's minds and are able to see it on-screen. There are no such thought-viewing voiceovers in the movies at all. Therefore, dismissing Maul's thoughts because they weren't seen in some CGI thought-bubble is pretty strange. Maul clearly is thinking about something, and we know exactly what Lucas has him thinking about from the novel adaptation - a form of media which we are able to see Maul's thoughts.

    Maul was thinking back to two thousand years earlier, about the original Sith, what it meant to be a Sith, and the more than 50 or so Sith cultists who were a part of it.

    Like Vader being a Sith in ANH, there is more to the story than just the films. This case is no different.

    Therefore, my diatribe may be wasted on you, but not for the reasons you supplied. The scene I supplied - Maul standing on the balcony - is not some new EU scene - it's right there in the movies, screenplay, script and yes, the novellization as well.
  2. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
  3. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well of course there were dark side users not called Sith before the Sith was formed. That has nothing to do with the fact that no one will be called a Dark Jedi in any of the films. That's what this bloated topic is about.
  4. Mister_Oragahn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2001
    star 3
    Genghis, Bib, your fight is useless.

    From the point of view of a guy who wouldn't know if he would be pleased or disgusted to learn that the term (not the concept) Dark Jedi turned to canon and who has no problem with its concept, I have to say that what you're calling a proof doesn't weigh much in the balance. It is only light assumption.

    Ben's words had no value as we know that Luke was told a lie.

    So until we don't have the term "Dark Jedi" pronounced or written in any SW canon material, it will never be considered as canon.

    Good to play devil's advocate but sometimes we have to give up.

    Dooku's CCG card mentionning Dark Jedi Master isn't actually canon, and until the movie comes out, it's a pure waste of time to spend hours in arguing that Dooku will be refered as a Dark Jedi or not in AOTC.

    I, we and you don't have any proof nor spoiler.

    Just wait until 16th May.
  5. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Dooku's CCG card mentionning Dark Jedi Master isn't actually canon

    PPOR. I don't see any Infinities label on the card.
  6. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Only the movies and what GL say are canon, because either of those 2 things can override anything else. So that Dooku card is not canon ;)
  7. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Again, post proof. Where does it say that only the movies are canon?

    If you wish to continue this discussion further, please do so via PM.
  8. Mister_Oragahn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2001
    star 3
    Doh ! Completely forgot that damn new rule.

    I'd say taht if some CCG card mentions Dooku as a Dark Jedi Master, well, so be it, he has to be one then.

    Ok, so Dark Jedi is now canon.

    But now, as it goes with Ben's case, it's only a matter of truth and point of view.

    Here, the truth is that Dooku is a Sith, no more no less.

    So to sum up my post :

    - The term Dark Jedi is now canon... as the ysalamari are *cough*. Hard to accept.

    - Dooku isn't a Dark Jedi Master but a Sith Apprentice.
  9. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    The rule doesn't say anything of the kind. All it says is that a person can't shut down discussion by saying that EU is absolutly right or absolutly wrong. You're free to give your opinion either way.
  10. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    He was referring to the canon rules, not the rules of EU usage on the forums.
  11. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Ix-nay on the anon-cay, okiday? ;) :D

    It never ceases to amaze me how people go stark-howling barmy when you put the words "dark" and "Jedi" together to form a new term [face_shocked]

    Why is the concept so hard to swallow? :confused:
  12. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    ...I fathom that it's because some people just inherently hate the EU, just as some people hate any SW movie past 1980, no matter what it is... [face_plain]
  13. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    Is someone further up the page claiming that collectable card games have the same level of "truthfullness" as the films?

    What about the back of a C3PO's cereal packet?

    is that the same level?

    ?[face_plain]

    Anyway, I'd like to refer everyone back to my post about a million pages back.
    A different point of view

    This is all about George not wanting to make the "Sequel" Trilogy.

    All of the talk about the internal logic of the universe to cover the fact there are no "Dark Jedi" is just that: TALK.

    In the end, these are just films, and I think that GL doesn't care as much about working out all the logic flaws in them as you lot do....

    :D


    UKS


  14. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    No one is saying that the TCG card is on the same level as the movies. Nothing is on that level. All we're saying is that the TCG card is canon because it has no Infinities label.

    Get it? Got it? Good.
  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Mister_Oraghan...
    "So until we don't have the term 'Dark Jedi' ..."

    Don't get too caught up on the semantics. The words "Dark Jedi" as some official classification never were important to Star Wars or the EU. It has used "Jedi" and "Dark Jedi" interchangeably to describe evil Jedi. The problem has never been the specific, particular set of words used to describe such people.

    There exists a class of people who may not be (or are also) Sith, but have embraced the Dark Side of the Force who have some sort of Jedi-related training.

    Call these people "Jedi," "fallen Jedi," "evil Jedi," "dark Jedi," or "Dark Jedi." The name isn't really important, since the EU hasn't dwelled on it or limited itself to just one term to describe such people.

    What is important is that such people exist in Star Wars - both in the movies and outside of them.
  16. Mister_Oragahn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2001
    star 3
    Genghis, that's what I said in my previous posts.

    I'm not a pure EU hater, neither a pure movie purist. I try to be open minded. True, there are many things of the EU that I don't like at all (like Zahn's books that once a time ago I was used to enjoy but not anymore now), but there are also many things I do love (I'm a SOTE fan, Jedi Knight Games, the NJO -even if I find the concept of vong heretic to SW and many comics).

    So when I saytaht your proofs are moot, I'm not trying to bach anybody here.

    Now, let's divide this Dark Jedi problem into smaller parts...

    Dark Jedi, the term.

    From a pure semantical point of view.

    Safe we refer to Bib's favorite and latest LFL rule ( ;) ), the term Dark Jedi, whatever it represents and defines, has yet never been mentioned in any canon product.

    Some people here have problems with the term because it's an oxymoron.
    I don't, as I find it pretty elegant and poetic.

    Dark Jedi, the concept.

    This is the biggest part of the problem.
    What is the truth behind the concept of a Dark Jedi ?

    A - Is a Dark Jedi a Jedi who dwelves into the dark side while he's still part of the Jedi Order ?

    B - Is a Dark Jedi a Force-sensitive person who uses the dark side but isn't a Sith neither a Jedi ?

    C - From who's point of view the 'C' case has to be referenced as a Dark Jedi ? From a Jedi point of view ? From a Sith one ? From a Dark Jedi one ? None of them ?

    D - Can a Dark Jedi be a fallen Jedi who was once member of the Jedi Order ?

    E - Has one of these concepts been hinted and enabled through the movies, the novelizations or the radio dramas ?

    There exists a class of people who may not be (or are also) Sith, but have embraced the Dark Side of the Force who have some sort of Jedi-related training.

    QGJ said that Maul used the Jedi Arts.
    The first Sith was once a Jedi.

    But I think that QGJ's statement is quite flat, as every bad boy using a lightsabre may be considered as using the Jedi Arts.

    In fact, there's one thing that is sure : When you start to tap into the dark side to summon powers, especially agressive powers, and even more Sith lightning, then you're not using the Jedi Arts, even if the first Sith was a Jedi, because there's no equivalent to the Sith lightning for the Jedi.

    So if Maul had used a Sith lightning, maybe QGJ would have never said that the mysterious warrior used the Jedi Arts.
  17. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    More fuel for the fire: Read this page of the comic book adaptation:

    http://rinse.leftcorner.com/rinse/aotc/gn/yoda_defeats_dooku.jpg

    Another reference to Dooku being a Dark Jedi.
  18. Mister_Oragahn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2001
    star 3
    Wow. Now there are two sources that mention Dooku as a Dark Jedi. This is first time in the EU that a Sith is clearly named a Dark Jedi (if my memory serves well). What the **** ?

    Disturbing and dangerous this puzzle is...
  19. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Vader, Maul and Palpatine have also been described as both Sith and Dark Jedi.
  20. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    I only consider the Movies and what GL says canon :)

    If Gary Kurtz was to say Luke was 17 in ANH, then GL said he was 18, 18 would be the one accepted not what Kurtz said. No one can override what GL says.

    If the EU said Mara Jade was born at such a time, and then she appeared in Episode 3 as an adult, all the EU would be thrown out of the window (cept some stupid EU would come up with a Clone story). Nothing can override the movies.

    So I dont consider anything else canon, but thats just me ;)
  21. darth_s0da Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    well i believe that he was a dark jedi up until he became a sith. as soon as he left the jedi order sidious didn't come out and have a welcome party for him. not until he proved himself to be worthy did he become a sith. he doesn't coin the name DARTH TYRANUS for nothing. in the movie he IS a sith.
  22. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    SLAVE_2...
    "cept some stupid EU would come up with a Clone story"

    "Freaking A!" :mad: Mara Jade already is a clone. [face_plain] I've been saying this since 1991, and still they don't believe me. [face_plain]

    Zahn completely ripped off the whole concept - there was quite clearly already a red-headed special agent of the Empire who's last command was to destroy Luke Skywalker and they ended up falling in love.

    That character - the ORIGINAL red-headed Emperor's Hand, Shira Brie - a Star Wars character who's been around since the early '80's.

    Don't go around claiming that a Mara Jade clone theory is anything new - I have that one patented, durnit! :D
  23. BuffaloJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2000
    star 4
    Kinda makes you rethink the possible significance of Lucafilm registering the domain name www.darkjedi.com at the same time they registered all those other Episode II domain names. Frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a lot of stuff that refers to Dooku as a "Dark Jedi".
  24. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    The only thing that concerns this forum is whether or not Dooku or anyone else will be called a Dark Jedi in the FILM or if there will be any non-Sith dark side user in the next FILMS. The answer to both I believe is no.
  25. BuffaloJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2000
    star 4
    But would it be the end of the world if there does end up being a line in the film in which someone calls him a "Dark Jedi"? I think the answer to that question is also no.
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