PT Dooku's motivation to join Darth Sidius?

Still think the above would've worked TPM out to set up the rest of the PT marvelously. Dooku could have been one of the first "disillusioned" Jedi, and kept his lightsaber color, keeping us guessing the entire trillogy. As his end would be at the hands of Anakin Skywalker while he captured the alleged Sith Lord.

 

There are several ideas floating around here that I believe should be a little more independant of each other.

First, that the Sith were the cause of the corruption in the Senate and the greater galaxy. I don't think that was actually the case. Palpatine certainly exacerbated that corruption in secret, but corruption is always going to be there. No system is perfect.

Second, that Dooku ultimately blamed Qui-Gon's death on the Sith alone. I could see Dooku definitely seeing Qui-Gon killed by a Sith Lord, but seeing the Sith presence as a smaller problem to the bigger problem of the corruption and malaise of the Jedi Order and the Senate in their handling of the Naboo Crisis. I'm certain he was angry at the Sith for their part in it, but the greater part of his anger was reserved for the other side. In this manner does Dooku probably come to Palpatine and pledge his allegiance, because he is repulsed by the Council's recent actions. Hell, he probably convinces himself that his former Padawan's death was a necessary step to conquering the Republic and instituting a New Way.

 

TCW seems to be going with "Dooku came to Palpatine before Qui-Gon's death" - Dooku is Tyranus, and Tyranus placed the clone order during Valorum's administration, just after having Sifo-Dyas killed, and using Sifo-Dyas's identity.

Qui-Gon was killed right after Valorum was voted out of office with the Vote Of No Confidence.

 

My impression is that he was indeed a political idealist who did really look down upon the corruption of the Senate and the Jedi Order going along with it (as well as other ideological clashes) and saw making somebody like Palpatine into the emperor who thus wouldn't be mired by people like the bureaucrats who sunk Valorum into ineffectiveness and thus could more quickly and efficiently get things done. (Not to mention that I do think being promised to be the right-hand-guy of the one running the government, which would give him a major say in such matters, probably would have been enticing as well no matter what) Seeing as if the Senate/Chancellor had been really doing their job during the Naboo Crisis the Federation may have not been able to get away with it in the first place and it would have been taken care of without the need for things like Padme's guerilla operation to take it back that wound up putting Qui-Gon into such harm's way to get killed in the first place. Qui-Gon was killed, but the Naboo crisis was a major step to Palpatine's taking power. (Though Palpatine was in on Jedi ambassadors being sent to settle the crisis, it's not really said that he chose Qui-Gon to be one of the ones. And for what it's worth he did openly resist Padme going back in front of her and her entourage that Qui-Gon went with which he could use in his defense I suppose) Ultimately, I would believe whilst he didn't like Qui-Gon dying, it was ultimately an acceptable sacrifice of sorts if he could help "fix" the Republic with Palpatine. Not to mention that getting power from embracing the Dark Side probably didn't hurt thing much for him either.

Though even I will say that it probably would have helped if they made stuff like that a bit clearer. I think a good deal of what he says is genuine (and the Jedi familiar with him do firmly believe him to be a political idealist so I think that does at least to some degree affirm that he truly is anti-corruption) but I guess the problem for many is that they mix in with some half-truths/lies to further a rift between the Jedi and Senate as well which does admittedly make it hard to get a full read on him and some of this could possibly be considered assumption on my part. I suppose an extra scene or two between Palpatine and Dooku could have helped more clearly illuminate the intent. (And I think things like Jocasta's talk about him should have stayed in) On the whole I think his character may be a victim of the cutting room floor more than much else. It's kind of hard to tell, but I think there's enough there to get some kind of idea of why he was doing it like I did with a lot of the stuff in the first paragraph.

Keep in mind though that I still need to finish TCW and perhaps that helps explain it, maybe differently.

 

In AOTC, Dooku reveals he has two motivations.

When talking to Obi-Wan, he says: "He (Qui-Gon) knew all about the corruption in the senate, but he would have never gone along with it, if he had learned the truth as I have." Also the Jedi said that Dooku was "a political idealist, not a murderer."

When talking to Yoda, he says: "I have become more powerful than any Jedi, even you."

The primary motivation is either anti-corruption or power. The pursuit of one could have easily led to the other

 

Dooku also blamed the Jedi Council for Qui-Gon's death, not the Sith, since they send him to Naboo without comprehension of the situation.

 

Hmm - with Count Dooku but then again he was always abit of a controversial and outspoken member of the Jedi Council whom had an interest in Galactic Politics, and how he always retained a degree of pride himself even when he was a young Padawan and when he trained with Master Yoda at times ... and how the loss of Qui-Gon Jinn, and then Sifo Diyas had 'ideals' and such ... and at one time where he was considering hunting down the One Sith being Palpatine but he figured out the fate the Galaxy would inevitably face ...

 

This was most definitely the case. If he was already with Sidious at this point (TCW says he is) then Sidious would be in an even easier position to manipulate Dooku's state of mind after his Padawan's death.

"You trained your former padawan well. You instilled in him the right ideals, but in the end the meddling of the Council got him killed. They could have done something more to prevent his coming to Naboo, my friend."

 

It's non-canon, but the Darth Plagueis novel does quite a good job of explaining how Dooku's fall started (but ends before he goes 'fully' Sith, if he ever does.) By that characterisation, he starts out as genuinely idealistic and his anti-corruption stance is not only against the Senate, but also against the Council itself which he sees as becoming basically a political body instead of staying hands-off until needed - and mishandles most of the situations it DOES get involved in. So he has a full mastery of the Force and experience of the Galaxy and yet is drifting away from the Jedi order even before Sidious starts to get his claws into him.

He almost certainly would have left the Order at some point anyway, it's not even inconceivable he would have backed the Separatists of his own volition if it meant reforming/changing the Senate. The only reason he went 'Sith', or at least Dark, was because Palpatine is basically THAT GOOD at manipulating people. He was almost certainly being lead down the path to the Dark Side without even realising it until it was too late, the same way Anakin never truly understood how far he'd gone right up until the point he actually cut off Mace's hand, Dooku presumably had a similar moment of his own. I think it's Dark Rendezvous (also non-canon but bloody good) where he thinks about it but can't seem to recall exactly how he ended up going down this particular path/

Alternatively, you could with the TCW/Stover Dooku who was basically a sociopath/space fascist all along who fooled all the Jedi Masters into THINKING he was an idealist... but that sucks, so let's not.

 

I like the notion that Palpatine "corrupted" Dooku as quickly as he corrupted Anakin - so, when Dooku "can't remember being any different" that's because he's been corrupt for the last 13 years.

And also, that Dooku was never as "emotional" as Qui-Gon - he was always someone who was concerned more with "principles" than people.

He was an idealist before Palpatine turned him - but it was in a somewhat abstract fashion.

 

Exactly this...

So many wanted Dooku to be this complex character, and he really isn't, at least in mu opinion. This is another instance where the EU (thankfully defunct) gets the character wrong.

In AOTC the absolute beauty of the movie as far as Dooku goes, is that for 99.9% of the movie Lucas has us, the audience, see Dooku as The Jedi see him. We are told he is a political idealist, that as an ex-Jedi he is incapable of murder. Further into the movie Lucas has Dooku tell us, through his conversation with Obi Wan, that he is leading the Separatists in order to fight the Sith. We even see Dooku try to show some mercy in the arena, but, Mace refuses. Dooku doesn't seem all that bad, we can believe that he is truly a Political Idealist.

So for the vast majority of the movie, we see Dooku as the Jedi do. A political idealist who is not capable of murder. However, then we get to the end of the movie, where Dooku runs back to his Master like the dog he is. To borrow one of the Emperor's lines, "Young fool, only now, at the end, do you understand". The young fool, being us the audience. Only at the end do we understand that everything Lucas has lead us to believe about Dooku up to that point is a Sham. Dooku is a Sith, and is in league with Sidious. Dooku is actually Darth Tyranus, the same Tyranus that hired Jango Fett to be the clone template. We now realize that Dooku has had his hand in the creation of both armies, and that the war that was just started was ultimately part of a plan that he was helping to carry out. A plan that would kill millions and ravage worlds through war. Dooku was a Sith, not a political idealist, Senator Amidala is a Political idelaist, at the end of AOTC Lucas shows us that Dooku is not. That is the whole point of Lucas's revealing to us at the end of AOTC that Dooku was a Sith, that everything we thought we knew of the character before that point was wrong. He was a Sith, he was a liar. Why does someone become a Sith? For power!

The Clone Wars cartoon further shows us that Dooku had to already be a flawed and corruptible character as a Jedi even before Sidious came along because Dooku was corrupted while he was still a Jedi. As Iron_lord pointed out, Dooku was corrupted before Qui Gonn's death, so we know that again, the idea that Dooku left the Jedi Order over Qui Gon's death and the problems within the Republic are lies, that what he truly wanted was power... Unlimited Power!

 

Which EU though? Some, like the ROTS novelization, stress just how evil he has become.

 

The ROTS Novelization isn't EU nor Defunct?

However, to the greater point, I think from AOTC there is nothing complex about Dooku's character. Dooku was easily corrupted, that doesn't mean he was evil before hand. It means that there was already seeds of the darkside in his character before Sidious came along and helped it grow.

So many people and a lot of the EU wanted Dooku to be this Jedi, who had good intentions, but, went about it the wrong way. I don't see that at all from the movies. It seems to me that Dooku is a pretty simple character, and that's what the end of AOTC is meant to portray. However, as with anything where Lucas has let others play in his sandbox, you get other writers ideas of the how's and why's of motivation and back story of characters. I think TCW brought Dooku's character back in line with what we originally see in the movies. That he was a flawed Jedi, and Sidious played on that. That the wole story of Dooku being unhappy with the Republic, and using Qui Gon's death as teh spring board for the Separatist movement was a lie to hide his true intentions.

 

He turned evil because he's Christopher Lee. How were people kept guessing if he was evil when he was CHRISTOPHER,SARUMAN,DRACULA LEE?Thats like wondering if Sean Bean is going to die or if Johnny Depp is going to be weird.

 

As written, novelizations are only canon "where they align with what's seen on screen" - and there's a perspective that says "Only the bits of dialogue in the novel that exactly match the screen scene are canon - everything else - inner monologue, etc is not."

 

Right, however, I don't think we would get anywhere trying to figure out which lines of Dialogue in the Novel are EU or Canon. So, again, to the bigger point you were trying to make, that if the novelization is pointing out that there is a progression to Dooku's evilness, still fits in with what see in the movies. That the seeds for evil are there, but, it takes Sidious to nurture it. I would like to think that if Lucas ever did Dooku's back story, that it would likely mirror Anakin. With Anakin, the flaws are there, however, it takes Sidious to help bring those flaws out so they overwhelm the good that was in Anakin.

 

This was the relevant novelization scene:

He is the icon of the Separatist movement, its public face. He is to the Confederacy of Independent Systems what Palpatine is to the Republic: the living symbol of the justice of its cause.
This is the public story.
This is the story that even Dooku, in his weaker moments, almost believes.
The truth is more complicated.
Dooku is... different.
He doesn't remember quite when he discovered this; it may have been when he was a young Padawan, betrayed by another learner who had claimed to be his friend. Lorian Nod had said it to his face: "You don't know what friendship is."
And he didn't.
He had been angry, certainly; furious that his reputation had been put at risk. And he had been angry at himself, for his error in judgment: trusting as an ally one who was in fact an enemy. The most astonishing part of the whole affair had been that even after turning on him before the Jedi, the other boy had expected him to participate in a lie, in the name of their "friendship."
It had been all so preposterous that he hadn't known how to reply.
In fact, he has never been entirely sure what beings mean when they speak of friendship.
Love, hate, joy, anger—even when he can feel the energy of these emotions in others, they translate in his perception to other kinds of feelings.
The kinds that make sense.
Jealousy he understands, and possessiveness: he is fierce when any being encroaches on what is rightfully his.
Intolerance, at the intractability of the universe, and at the undisciplined lives of its inhabitants: this is his normal state.
Spite is a recreation: he takes considerable pleasure from the suffering of his enemies.
Pride is a virtue in an aristocrat, and indignation his inalienable right: when any dare to impugn his integrity, his honor, or his rightful place atop the natural hierarchy of authority.
And moral outrage makes perfect sense to him: when the incorrigibly untidy affairs of ordinary beings refuse to conform to the plainly obvious structure of How Society Ought To Be.
He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him.
Very possibly, he is what he is because other beings just aren't very ... interesting.
Or even, in a sense, entirely real.
For Dooku, other beings are mostly abstractions, simple schematic sketches who fall into two essential categories.
The first category is Assets: beings who can be used to serve his various interests. Such as—for most of his life, and to some extent even now—the Jedi, particularly Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom had regarded him as their friend for so long that it had effectively blinded them to the truth of his activities. And of course—for now—the Trade Federation, and the InterGalactic Banking Clan, the Techno Union, the Corporate Alliance, and the weapon lords of Geonosis. And even the common rabble of the galaxy, who exist largely to provide an audience of sufficient size to do justice to his grandeur.
The other category is Threats. In this second set, he numbers every sentient being he cannot include in the first.
There is no third category.
​

 

Not sure what your point is Iron...

As I said, from the movies it seems that Dook wasn't that complex. Not as complex as a lot of the EU and many fans wanted him to be. Even from that section you posted it again shows that there are serious flaws with Dooku even before his turn to the Dark Side, which fits in with why I believe he was targeted by Sidious. He was easily corrupted because those seeds of the Dark Side were already there. Greed, anger, hate etc...

Dooku wasn't this political idealist gone awry like the EU wanted to make him as. He wanted power, always wanted power, and he was a Jedi because of that. However, when Sidious comes along and promises him greater power than the Jedi could ever give him (sound familiar), well Dooku is easily sold. Hence why this line from AOTC (spoken to Yoda) is so relevant:

This is the motivation that drives Dooku...

 

Just making it clear what was said.

The other thing from the novel, the "Dooku was speciesist and wanted all the Confederate species broken and made subject to the Empire", is a little unusual - but it makes sense to me:

It was no accident that the primary powers of the Confederacy of Independent Systems were Neimoidian, Skakoan, Quarren and Aqualish, Muun and Gossam, Sy Myrthian and Koorivar and Geonosian. At war's end the aliens would be crushed, stripped of all they possessed, and their systems and their wealth would be given into the hands of the only beings who could be trusted with them.
Human beings.
Dooku would serve an Empire of Man.
And he would serve it as only he could. As he was born to. He would smash the Jedi Order to create it anew: not shackled by the corrupt, narcissistic, shabby little beings who called themselves politicians, but free to bring true authority and true peace to a galaxy that so badly needed both.
An Order that would not negotiate. Would not mediate. An Order that would enforce.
The survivors of the Jedi Order would become the Sith Army.
The Fist of the Empire.
And that Fist would become a power beyond any Jedi's darkest dreams. The Jedi were not the only users of the Force in the galaxy; from Hapes to Haruun Kal, from Kiffu to Dathomir, powerful Force-capable humans and near-humans had long refused to surrender their children to lifelong bound servitude in the Jedi Order. They would not so refuse the Sith Army.
They would not have the choice.


With his heroic capture of Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker will become the ultimate hero: the greatest hero in the history of the Republic, perhaps of the Jedi Order itself. The loss of his beloved partner will add just exactly the correct spice of tragedy to give melancholy weight to his every word, when he gives his HoloNet interviews denouncing the Senate's corruption as impeding the war effort, when he delicately—oh, so delicately, not to mention reluctantly—insinuates that corruption in the Jedi Order prolonged the war as well.
When he announces the creation of a new order of Force-using warriors.
He will be the perfect commanding general for the Sith Army.
Dooku could only shake his head in awe. And to think that only days earlier, the Jedi had seemed so close to uncovering, even destroying, all he and his Master had worked for. But he should never have feared. His Master never lost. He would never lose. He was the definition of unbeatable.
How can one defeat an enemy one thinks is a friend?
And now, with a single brilliant stroke, his Master would turn the Jedi Order back upon itself like an Ethrani ourobouros devouring its own tail.
This was the day. The hour.
The death of Obi-Wan Kenobi would be the death of the Republic.
Today would see the birth of the Empire.​

 

He hates Jedi and he love killing innocent people. Seems just like all the other Sith from where I stand.

 

That's your opinion, sir. Not everyone shares your perception.

I for one applaud Dooku for leaving the Jedi to start a phony war that kills a huge number of people, a significant portion being innocent civilians.

 

Dooku probably did start off genuinely idealistic I think, or at the very least he wouldn't have reached so high in the Jedi council before he left if as Stover implies, he was in fact a sociopath. His anger started with the Senate, spread to the Council, and thus he left. The fall would have been gradual, he wouldn't have flipped straight into 'cackling super-villain' territory instantly but as with Anakin he would have been tempted into the Dark Side once or twice for genuinely altruistic purposes then as is the way of the Dark Side started using it more and more until it became an end in it's own right and not just a means.

 

In the book with his betrayal by Lorian Nod (Secrets of the Jedi) - we see that he started studying a Sith Holocron at some point not long after becoming a Master. Study of them is banned to those of Knight or lower rank - because of the risk of corruption - only Masters are thought to be capable of studying them safely.

Later sources, like the Star Wars Official Fact File, suggested his Fall really started there.

 

LMAO, I see what you did there...

 

If that was to me, I am not a he and I'm well aware my views are in the minority. I am not ashamed.