PT Dooku's Revelation of Sidious to Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ananta Chetan, Jul 22, 2014.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    This thread has made me think a bit more about Mace referring to Dooku as a "political idealist".

    The Plagueis novel shows Dooku being really disgruntled with the Republic and becoming disgruntled with the Jedi but all the same, he's embarrassed at the way Qui-Gon, his former Padawan, talks to Hego Damask.

    Sidious probably promised him that together they would end corruption when Dooku initially joined. Dooku probably saw Sidious as a way to cut through the bull**** that mired down the operations of the Republic.

    But by the time of AOTC, Dooku may have started to see the price of helping Sidious remain in power.

    But he's still a political idealist. He thinks that he can take over and end the bull**** on his own.

    And maybe he can get his former Padawan's Padawan to help him. "I wish he were still alive, I could use his help right now" was probably sincere. Qui-Gon answered to no one but himself, and if Dooku thought he could sell Qui-Gon on the cause of reforming the Republic...but no point in that now. Unless he could recruit Obi-Wan.

    Where I think he wasn't sincere? I don't think Nute Gunray went to Dooku for help with Sidious. At best, Gunray might have said that there was a price to pay for that alliance. And that's at best. I don't think Gunray was brave enough even for that.
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  2. Cael-Fenton Force Ghost

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    Jun 22, 2006
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    Haven't read Plagueis, so I don't know about that, but I agree with the rest of what you said. Good point about Gunray.
  3. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think Dooku did want Obi-Wan to join him.
    ROTS novel he said he views Obi-Wan practically as a grandson. Dooku wanted Obi-Wan to join them as late as just before Dooku's final battle.
  4. Deltron3030 Jedi Knight

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    Jul 22, 2014
    star 1
    Dooku, like all Sith, has to recruit an apprentice to overthrow his master.

    Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's apprentice, the last piece of Dooku's former apprentice.

    Who else is a candidate? Jango? Grievous? The never-mentioned-in-film Ventress?
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  5. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

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    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    i think the Sith work multiple angles at once to prepare for any eventuality.
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  6. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

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    Jan 4, 2013
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    I will never understand why Dooku actually mentioned the name Darth Sidious to Obi-Wan. Saying that a Sith Lord was in charge of the Republic was surely enough. Giving the Jedi the name just increases the risk that Palpatine will be unmasked.
    Last edited by Lord Chazza, Jul 24, 2014
  7. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Maybe Dooku wanted them too know it regardless of what Palpatine wanted? And besides Palpatine ruled the Republic, why would he be a suspect?
  8. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

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    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    Possibly.

    He wouldn't be a suspect initially. But the point is, a name is valuable information - information that has been freely dished out for very little gain.
    Last edited by Lord Chazza, Jul 24, 2014
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    So how do you see Lord Tyranus, the apprentice of Darth Sidious?
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  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    And this is why the Jedi wound up being screwed. They believed that the Sith would all tell lies, but they don't anymore. They tell the truth which is too fantastical for a Jedi to believe.

    I think it's something that developed over time for him. Especially fueled by how the Confederacy leadership's actions unintentionally fueled that belief.

    Why? In what way is the name Darth Sidious linked to Palpatine?
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Jul 25, 2014
  11. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2014
    star 1
    Exactly. It's that simple.

    Vader asks Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor ("Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son!")

    Dooku asks Obi-Wan to join him to overthrow Sidious. ("You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together, we will destroy the Sith!")

    Anakin asks Padme to join him to overthrow Palpatine. ("I am more powerful than the Chancellor, I... I can overthrow him! And together, you and I can rule the galaxy!")
  12. DurararaFTW Jedi Master

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    Jul 5, 2014
    star 1
    Think this might be more of an Anakin specific problem, having a been a slave his entire life, he doesn't know how to function without a master of sorts.
  13. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2014
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    Well in that case he wouldn't try to overthrow Palpatine, his actual master, would he?

    It's a case of Lucas' wanting a moment in the prequels to mirror the original movies (Dooku/Vader asking Obi-Wan/Luke to join him), and the idea that the two Sith are always plotting against each other.
    Last edited by Dartht Punk, Jul 27, 2014
  14. DurararaFTW Jedi Master

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    Jul 5, 2014
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    Well that's the thing, he wants to kill Palpatine for all he has done but doesn't want to do it alone. Hence why he puts it on hold for over 20 years after Padme turns him down.
  15. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    :confused:
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    He knows Palpatine's the man who's behind the Separatists, and who has brought misery to many of the people Anakin cares about (Padme especially - but she isn't the only one).

    In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, this is made more explicit:

    In fact, he hadn't killed the Jedi to serve Sidious, though Sidious was meant to believe just that. In his arrogance Sidious was unaware that Anakin had seen through him. Had the Sith Lord thought he would simply shrug off the fact that, from the start, Sidious had been manipulating Anakin and the war?
    No, he hadn't killed the Jedi in service to Sidious, or, for that matter to demonstrate allegiance to the order of the Sith.
    He had executed Sidious's command because the Jedi would never have understood Anakin's decision to sacrifice Mace and the rest in order that Padmé might survive the tragic death she suffered in Anakin's visions. More important, the Jedi would have attempted to stand in the way of the decisions he and Padmé would have needed to make regarding the fate of the galaxy.
    Beginning with the assassination of Sidious.
    Oh, but on Mustafar she had worked herself into a state over what he had done at the Temple, so much so that she hadn't heard a word he was saying. Instead she had made up her mind that he had come to care more about power than he cared about her.
    As if one matters without the other!
    And then cursed Obi-Wan had shown himself, interrupting before Anakin could explain fully that everything he had done, in Palpatine's office and at the Temple, had all been for her sake, and that of her unborn child. Had Obi-Wan not arrived he would have persuaded her to understandhe would have made her understandand together they would have moved against the Sith Lord …
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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He doesn't want to kill him because of anything he's done, but because he wants to be in charge. That was the point of what he said to Padme on Mustafar.

    ANAKIN: "I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together, you can I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be."

    But he couldn't due to his injuries and so it is only when Luke enters the picture that he revisits his earlier goals.

    VADER: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. You do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

    Only due to the fact that Luke will be sufficient enough for the two of them to take out Palpatine.
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  18. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2014
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    Well, that's a novel, none of that is implied in the film.
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    One possible interpretation though.
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  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    When Anakin learns what Palpatine is - that may count as learning what he's done.

    "Are you going to kill me, Anakin?"
    "I would certainly like to."
    "I know you would. I can feeeeel your anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger."
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  21. DurararaFTW Jedi Master

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    Jul 5, 2014
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    If he's powerful enough in ROTJ then he doesn't need Padme, does he? And he already rules the galaxy in Empire Strikes Back as the weaker member of the two man team, so what difference does the oher one being Palpatine or Luke make?
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In ROTS, he wants his wife by his side. She would handle political affairs, he as the Dark Lord of the Sith who would enforce the rules.

    ANAKIN: "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it."

    PADMÉ: "That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do."

    ANAKIN: "Then they should be made to."

    PADMÉ: "By whom? Who's going to make them?"

    ANAKIN: "I don't know. Someone."

    PADMÉ: "You?"

    ANAKIN: "Of course not me."

    PADMÉ: "But someone."

    ANAKIN: "Someone wise."

    By TESB, he's nothing compared to Palpatine. He's just his lapdog doing his bidding. The Apprentice wants to and will attempt to overthrow the Master.

    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do!"

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Jul 27, 2014
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  23. Deltron3030 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2014
    star 1

    Have to disagree here... Based partly on the Darth Plagueis book, but also on the films, and going back to Bane and the rule of two.

    Sidious killed his master Plagueis. One does not become a master Sith by waiting your turn. You must be ambitious, I would say the master expects you to take him out when you sense he is weak. I would wager he would be disappointed if you didn't. What kind of Sith are you if you don't strike when you see an opportunity? Sith masters expect treachery, it's part of the succession process. If you aren't trying to kill him, you aren't a very good Sith.

    After all, it's only fair, he is trying to replace his apprentice with a better one (see Palpatine trying to turn Luke, as well as stoking Anakin in the fire while he had Maul and then Dooku as his apprentice. He even tells Grievous he has a replacement for Dooku in the works, one far younger and more powerful.

    One does not become a master Sith by waiting one's turn and being patient. I doubt any apprentice in the sith order ever became a master by waiting for his master to die of old age.

    I'm pretty sure I'm getting a lot of this from the Plagueis book but it fits with what we know about the Sith in the film lore.
    Last edited by Deltron3030, Jul 27, 2014
  24. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    Perhaps the Jedi equivalent to the Sith ideal of Killing One's Master would be Surpassing One's Master, in terms of Force presence and ability, and what any genuine Knight would wish for their apprentice. Shows also how the same initial aspiration can take two radically different paths.
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  25. DurararaFTW Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2014
    star 1
    Well that what I'm saying, Vader served Palpatine meekly and faithfully for 20 years after he already made it clear he weanted to kill Palpatine but was turned down by Padme. He's not a good Sith because he doesn't think he can handle things on his own. Not just killing the Emperor, but being on his own afterwards. He offers Luke a place at his side in ESB but when Luke just offers Vader to come with him he is not remotely interested. He sees no opportunity there, as all long as Luke is still good after the Emperor is dead there's no point in killing the Emperor at all for Vader.
    Last edited by DurararaFTW, Jul 29, 2014
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