PT Dooku's Revelation of Sidious to Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ananta Chetan, Jul 22, 2014.

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  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    We don't actually get shown those 20 years in detail. For all we know, Vader is regularly making attempts to unseat the Emperor, all of which fail.
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  2. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
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    The latter. There's no way he could have expected Kenobi to just abandon the Jedi for his lies. He knew Qui-gon, he knew Obi-wan, he knew them, and they were no fools. (Aside from the fact that they completely disregarded what Dooku said about Sidious).
    But trying to turn a Jedi? That's a little too farfetched to work, especially if Obi-Wan is the attempted convert.
  3. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Yeah, a Jedi would never join the Seperatists-! What was Dooku thinking?
  4. Lulu_Mars Force Ghost

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    Kind of like how numerous people - mostly Germans - tried to assassinate Hitler and failed. How many known attempts were made? Around 40?
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  5. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    There were loads of failed attempts to kill Hitler. Even Tom Cruise couldn't do it.
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  6. Deltron3030 Jedi Knight

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    Jul 22, 2014
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    Shadows of the Empire hinted at this, in that Vader suffered more injuries at the hand of the Emperor since the battle on Mustafar. His neck was broken, one shoulder replaced, etc, as visible when he gets lit up in Jedi.

    [IMG]
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  7. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2013
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    And he also apparently had a skull transplant with a primate/neanderthal
  8. Bazinga'd Dark Lord of the SWC/PT/ Spinoff Forums

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    Unbelievable catch. That is not a human skull
  9. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    how dare you.
  10. Deltron3030 Jedi Knight

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    Anakkin not Munky
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    [IMG]
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  12. DarthMaulFTW Jedi Knight

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    Aug 2, 2014
    I think Dooku was trying to emotionally destroy Kenobi by mentioning Qui Gon. I doubt he would want Kenobi to join him as Kenobi stood for all the things Dooku hated.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I don't think it was trying to destroy him, but trying to use him as an emotional connection. Dooku saying that Qui-gon would have joined him if he had known and since he believed that Qui-gon had rubbed off on Obi-wan, then he would be susceptible to joining him.
  14. Cael-Fenton Force Ghost

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    Jun 22, 2006
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    He can't have thought much of Obi-Wan's Jedi training in releasing emotions, then, if he thought that merely mentioning the guy's long-dead ex-Master in a favourable way would make Obi-Wan feel like crying o_O
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  15. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

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    May 21, 2011
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    Yeah he definitely wasn't trying to emotionally destroy Obi-Wan. The way he said it didn't sound like a taunt as much as a condolence.
  16. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

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    Yeah, he was more or less trying to find common ground with Obi-Wan by saying, "I too am pained by his death. If he were here now, he would help us both I am sure of that."
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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Exactly. It wasn't a taunt. A taunt would have been, "Qui-gon was nowhere my equal or not fit enough to have been my Padawan."
  18. Samnz Force Ghost

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Funny :) Being serious for a moment: Assasin Georg Elser was a really tragic case. The only reason he failed was because Hitler unexpectedly (due to something as arbitrary as weather!) left 10 minutes earlier. Otherwise Hitler would have been killed in 1939! Think about how many lifes, how millions of people could have been saved from death ... tragic :(

    Back to Star Wars:
    I always liked an alternate universe idea in which Dooku actually convinced Obi-Wan to join him. Obi-Wan as a double agent among the Jedi could have been cool, especially considering the fact that Palpatine always wanted to turn Anakin ... Anakin/Palpatine vs. Obi-Wan/Dooku on the Invisible Hand :)

    In regard to the "real" universe: I think there was some honesty in Dooku's words. He could almost count on the fact that the Jedi (and Obi-wan) most likely won't believe him. Just from the movies alone, I got the feeling that Dooku is not as evil as Palpatine, Maul or Vader. The way he spoke about Qui-Gon and also the fact that he almost seemed a bit offended or hurt by Obi-Wan's immediate refusal, leading Dooku to tease Obi-Wan about his inferior "Jedi powers" during their fight.

    It was a win-win-situation for Dooku. Either Obi-Wan joined him and they could have worked together secretly or the Jedi would conclude he'd be trying to sow mistrust.
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  19. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Yes, I think there is a lot of confusion among Star Wars media about how evil Dooku is. Is he really a Sith, or a rogue Jedi? How much of Sidous' plan does he know? Did he really leave because he thought the Jedi were failing?

    I've always thought Dooku was supposed to be something different from your average Darth - more of a half-way point between Jedi and Sith. Not as evil as Sidious or Maul, and with affection for certain Jedi. He doesn't hate the Jedi, he just believes they have fallen from their ideals.
    Last edited by Dartht Punk, Aug 4, 2014
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It's interesting to see the Revenge of the Sith novelization's take on him:

    He is the icon of the Separatist movement, its public face. He is to the Confederacy of Independent Systems what Palpatine is to the Republic: the living symbol of the justice of its cause.
    This is the public story.
    This is the story that even Dooku, in his weaker moments, almost believes.
    The truth is more complicated.
    Dooku is... different.
    He doesn't remember quite when he discovered this; it may have been when he was a young Padawan, betrayed by another learner who had claimed to be his friend. Lorian Nod had said it to his face: "You don't know what friendship is."
    And he didn't.
    He had been angry, certainly; furious that his reputation had been put at risk. And he had been angry at himself, for his error in judgment: trusting as an ally one who was in fact an enemy. The most astonishing part of the whole affair had been that even after turning on him before the Jedi, the other boy had expected him to participate in a lie, in the name of their "friendship."
    It had been all so preposterous that he hadn't known how to reply.
    In fact, he has never been entirely sure what beings mean when they speak of friendship.
    Love, hate, joy, anger—even when he can feel the energy of these emotions in others, they translate in his perception to other kinds of feelings.
    The kinds that make sense.
    Jealousy he understands, and possessiveness: he is fierce when any being encroaches on what is rightfully his.
    Intolerance, at the intractability of the universe, and at the undisciplined lives of its inhabitants: this is his normal state.
    Spite is a recreation: he takes considerable pleasure from the suffering of his enemies.
    Pride is a virtue in an aristocrat, and indignation his inalienable right: when any dare to impugn his integrity, his honor, or his rightful place atop the natural hierarchy of authority.
    And moral outrage makes perfect sense to him: when the incorrigibly untidy affairs of ordinary beings refuse to conform to the plainly obvious structure of How Society Ought To Be.
    He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him.
    Very possibly, he is what he is because other beings just aren't very ... interesting.
    Or even, in a sense, entirely real.
    For Dooku, other beings are mostly abstractions, simple schematic sketches who fall into two essential categories.
    The first category is Assets: beings who can be used to serve his various interests. Such as—for most of his life, and to some extent even now—the Jedi, particularly Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom had regarded him as their friend for so long that it had effectively blinded them to the truth of his activities. And of course—for now—the Trade Federation, and the InterGalactic Banking Clan, the Techno Union, the Corporate Alliance, and the weapon lords of Geonosis. And even the common rabble of the galaxy, who exist largely to provide an audience of sufficient size to do justice to his grandeur.
    The other category is Threats. In this second set, he numbers every sentient being he cannot include in the first.
    There is no third category.
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  21. Cael-Fenton Force Ghost

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    Jun 22, 2006
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    @Iron_lord I would hazard a guess that Stover sees Dooku as a classic psychopath?

    I concede that there's nothing in the movies which conclusively refutes that interpretation. I'd point, though, to his facial expression just after he maims Anakin. He looks genuinely regretful, almost sorrowful. There was no reason for him to fake those emotions because of the only two people present, Anakin was near-unconscious; Obi-Wan seemed to be somewhat hazy and anyway I don't think he could even see Dooku's face in the poor lighting and given their relative positions.

    Turning to evidence which isn't directly onscreen, but which I feel is relevant: The main point which I think Stover fails to give sufficient regard to is that Dooku was a Jedi for seventy years, during which time he was Yoda's Padawan for probably at least a decade, trained Qui-Gon Jinn also for at least a decade, and managed to thoroughly convince at least Mace Windu and Ki Adi Mundi that he's a morally principled man.

    Yoda's no fool. He's trained Jedi for eight hundred years. I'd say given his suspicions of Anakin, he'd have cottoned on pretty quick if Dooku was a psychopath. If psychopathic Force-sensitives exist (as Palpatine seems to prove), the Jedi have surely encountered them before amongst their own children. Just by probabilities. Assuming Dooku was a psychopath, and this could not be remedied by any training, I can't see how he got Knighted and then promoted to Master. Not to mention being allowed to take custody of children as Padawans! Which brings me to my next point -

    Qui-Gon is a really good person. He's somewhat arrogant and stubborn, true, but those are normal sorts of character flaw. Far from the sort of lasting damage you'd expect to see in a man who spent his formative prepubescent years, adolescence and early adulthood in the sole care and under the absolute authority of a psychopath unable to feel any positive emotions, Qui-Gon is empathetic, caring, kind and fundamentally decent.

    As for Mace, we know he's quite suspicious by nature, not easily given to trusting people. Of course, you could point out that he was wrong about Dooku. But misjudging an old friend's willingness to kill for their political ideals is one thing. Completely, fundamentally mistaking their psychological make-up is a whole other nest of gundarks. I would think that pathological psychotic disorders would be easily sensed by Jedi. Especially something like psychopathy, which involves the absence of emotions. Master Jedi can easily pick up on their students' feelings. Yoda, and Dooku's peers, would surely have sensed something off if Dooku didn't have any except anger and jealousy.

    I'm convinced that Dooku wasn't a psychopath, and that he wasn't somehow a fundamentally evil person who evilness had to wait, for some strange reason, until he was seventy to manifest itself. If he was either of those things, that makes Yoda and every other Jedi who had any acquaintance with Dooku prior to TPM really, really, unbelievably stupid. And it makes Yoda the most spectacular failure as a teacher. I just can't believe that.
    Last edited by Cael-Fenton, Aug 5, 2014
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  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It's possible that "he can't remember being otherwise" is the Dark Side's influence on him.

    The Dark Side Will Make You Forget, so to speak.

    So far, the only story which shows Dooku and Qui-Gon as a Master/Padawan team, is Legacy of the Jedi. It does hint that Dooku is already pretty flawed - not a true psychopath but maybe developing along those lines.
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  23. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    Yeah, that's typical of Jude Watson from my experience, focus on the future villain's flaws from the get go and pretty much ignore the fact that they were once good people with good qualities. I was very dissatisfied with Dooku in Legacy of the Jedi. I know it's just young readers, but still.
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  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    His good qualities are still acknowledged - but you can tell where he's going long before he gets there. His experience with Nod seems to have soured him on friendship in general.

    "You are alone, and betrayal is inevitable."
  25. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2014
    star 1
    Master Fenton, agree with you, I do.

    A psychopath, Dooku is not.
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