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PT Dooku's Revelation of Sidious to Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ananta Chetan, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. Orman Tagge

    Orman Tagge Jedi Knight star 4

    Apr 10, 2014
    Nailed it.

    I think it's a testament to Christopher Lee that with only handful of lines he created an intriguing, nuanced, morally grey villain. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Dooku is almost on par with Vader, who had 6 films to characterize himself. Good stuff.
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001

    Dooku was, in many ways, a call back to Prince Valorum from the first draft of ANH. A Jedi turned Sith who finds that the Empire's policies and actions were unsettling and that there was no honor there as there had been in the beginning. Which is why he ultimately becomes a Jedi again thanks to Annikin.
    whostheBossk likes this.
  3. Dartht Punk

    Dartht Punk Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jul 17, 2014
    I agree.

    I only wish Dooku had stayed alive until later in Episode III, as originally planned (which would have meant no need for Greivous, as a bonus).
  4. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 3, 2014
    CAEL-Fenton, this post is for you. It is a bit long, but I hope you'll read it. According to the novel "Labyrinth of Evil" :
    The current war had been the result of a thousand years of careful planning by the Sith—generations of bequeathing knowledge of the dark side from mentor to apprentice. Rarely more than two in each generation, from Darth Bane forward, Master and apprentice would devote themselves to harnessing the strength that flowed from the dark side, and to making the most of every opportunity to allow darkness to wax. Facilitating war, murder, corruption, injustice, and avarice when- and wherever possible.

    Analogous to introducing a covert malignancy to the body politic of the Republic, then monitoring its spread from one organ to another until the mass reached such size that it began to disrupt vital systems …

    The Sith had learned from their own internecine struggles that systems were often brought down from within when power became their reason for being. The greater the threat to that power, the tighter the threatened would cling.

    That had been the case with the Jedi Order.

    For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it. The Sith were pleased by the fact that the Jedi, too, had been allowed to grow so powerful, because, in the end, their sense of entitlement would blind them to what was occurring in their midst.

    So, let them be placed on a pedestal. Let them grow soft and set in their ways. Let them forget that good and evil coexist. Let them look no farther than their vaunted Temple, so that they would fail to see the proverbial forest for the trees. And, by all means, let them grow possessive of the power they had gained, so that they might be that much easier to topple.

    Not that all of them were blind, of course. Many Jedi were aware of the changes, the drift toward darkness. None, perhaps, more than aged Yoda. But the Masters who made up the Jedi Council were enslaved to the inevitability of that drift. Instead of attempting to get to the root of the coming darkness, they merely did their best to contain it. They waited for the Chosen One to be born, mistakenly believing that only he or she would be capable of restoring balance.

    Such was the danger of prophecy.

    It was into such times that Dooku had been born, placed because of a strong connection to the Force among an Order that had grown complacent, self-involved, arrogant about the power they wielded in the name of the Republic. Turning a blind eye to injustices the Republic had little interest in eradicating, because of profitable deals forged among those who held the reins of command.

    While midi-chlorians determined to some degree a Jedi’s ability to use the Force, other inherited characteristics also played a part—notwithstanding the Temple’s best efforts to eradicate them. Having hailed from nobility and great wealth, Dooku yearned for prestige. Even as a youngster, he had been obsessed with learning all he could about the Sith and the dark side of the Force. He had toed the Jedi line; become the Temple’s most agile swordmaster and instructor. And yet the makings of his eventual transformation had been there from the start. Without the Jedi ever realizing it, Dooku had been as disruptive to the Order as would be a young boy raised in slavery on Tatooine.

    His discontent had continued to grow and fester; his frustration with the Republic Senate, with ineffectual Supreme Chancellor Valorum, with the shortsightedness of the Jedi Council members themselves. A Trade Federation blockade of Naboo, rumors of a Chosen One found on a desert world, the death of Qui-Gon Jinn at the hands of a Sith … How could the Council members not see what was happening? How could they continue to claim that the dark side obscured all?

    Dooku had said as much to anyone who would listen. He wore his discontent on the sleeve of his robes. Though they hadn’t enjoyed the smoothest of student–teacher relationships, he and Yoda had spoken openly of the portents. But Yoda was living proof of a conservatism that came with extended life. Dooku’s true confidant had been Master Sifo-Dyas, who, while also disturbed by what was occurring, was too weak to take action.

    The Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere.

    The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.

    Dooku had given thought to seeking him out, perhaps killing him. But even what little faith he placed in the prophecy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.

    Another would come, and another.

    As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sidious, for it was Sidious who had approached him. Sidious’s boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn’t taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity were not so different after all.

    But partnership with a Sith didn’t make one a Sith.

    As the Jedi arts had to be taught, so, too, did the power of the dark side. And so began his long apprenticeship. The Jedi warned that anger was the quickest path to the dark side, but anger was nothing more than raw emotion. To know the dark side one had to be willing to rise above all morality, to throw love and compassion aside, and to do whatever was necessary to bring about the vision of a world brought under control—even if that meant taking lives.

    Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm’s length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous. Sidious had recognized in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice—an equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku’s commitment.

    One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change, Sidious had told him. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it.

    And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi Order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes …

    Ten years passed.

    Under its new Supreme Chancellor, the Republic recovered somewhat, then grew more corrupt and beset with problems than before. As best they could, Sidious and Tyranus helped things along.

    Sidious had the ability to see deep into the future, but there was always the unexpected. With the power of the dark side, however, came flexibility.

    Having traced Fett to Kamino, Obi-Wan Kenobi had turned up on Geonosis. All at once, here was Qui-Gon Jinn’s former Padawan, right under Dooku’s nose. But when he had informed Sidious of Obi-Wan’s presence, Sidious had only said, Allow events to play out, Darth Tyranus. For our plans are unfolding exactly as I have foreseen. The Force is very much with us.

    And now, a new wrinkle: as a result of Nute Gunray’s blunder at Cato Neimoidia, the Republic and the Jedi had chanced on a possible way to trace the whereabouts of Sidious and expose him.

    The mechno-chair’s exceptional transceiver—and others like it—had been created for Sidious by a host of beings, a few of whom were still alive. And if agents of the Republic—or the Jedi, for that matter—were clever and persistent enough, they could succeed in learning more about Sidious than he would want anyone to learn …

    He had to be informed, Dooku thought.

    Or did he?

    For a heartbeat he hesitated, imagining the power that could be his.

    Then he went directly to the hyperwave transmitter Sidious had given him, and began his transmission.
    whostheBossk and Iron_lord like this.
  5. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 16, 2002
    I truly believe this would have played out tremendously on film. Maybe not have Obi Wan, but Qui Gon be the one to join Dooku and Sifo Dyas, as former Jedi taking a stand against the corrupt politics. So in this instance, TPM would have to be changed around a little (imagine that) and we would have Maul killing a few Jedi, Mandalorians instead of droids, and Qui Gon surviving the final duel thanks to his former master, Dooku saving the day (Dooku killing Maul).

    This would have lead into AOTC with him leading the separatist movement with Sifo Dyas and Qui Gon. I understand the Seperatist being gready and evil, but it could have been limited to some good leaders as well. Instead of Dooku being a true Sith, he would have been just a former Jedi and leader of this movement to start the Republic over. (tired of waiting for the chosen one).

    And this would lead us not knowing what to expect in ROTS with Dooku capturing Sidious, but no Jedi believes him, hence a battle ensues (blue/green sabers vs. blue/green sabers.
    TX-20 and Cushing's Admirer like this.
  6. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Mar 10, 2015
    I might be already putting in a POV that others might share but then again given Count Dooku was a Jedi for 70 years (in the EU anyhow) before he had enough of 'the Senate and the Jedi Order' and became the 'most painful loss in the Lost 20' - that was one thing - and given how Count Dooku even when he was a youngling/padawan of Master Yoda - he retained his pride to an extent and always felt he was 'above others' - well his fellow younglings/padawans of his generation at the time so likewise how in his day Count Dooku was Jedi 'Master' Dooku for the matter was one of the most potential and promising Jedi in the Jedi Order as Master Yoda remarked 'our greatest and most learned! Our greatest Failure...' on Count Dooku ...

    Count Dooku he did train Qui-Gon Jinn and the fact he and Qui-Gon Jinn did have some views at times that weren't 100% approved by the Jedi Order ... and Count Dooku he did want to have a Republic and well ... Government that would be run to fit his own expectations and standards ...

    Also - Count Dooku at times referred to Sifo Dyas in the Clone Wars - well in the Lost Missions how he claimed 'Sifo Dyas understood! He saw the future! Why ... he helped me!' something along those lines and how he remarked to Obi-Wan Kenobi coldly'I have told you everything on Geonosis you needed to know all those years ago Kenobi! You should have joined me!' so most likely he would have certainly wanted Obi-Wan Kenobi to consider his offer - rather than just 'seeds of distrust' ...

    Count Dooku then and such until his death he did have high expectations for the Galactic Government and felt it was corrupted then and that only he and Palpatine's 'leadership' will ensure a properly run Galactic Order with Count Dooku being one of the Supremo's and leading powers (though as we know he didn't get this chance as he forgot in the ROTS novel how 'Treachery is the Way of the Sith'...)

    Count Dooku then he did remark how he and Obi-Wan Kenobi must work together and they would 'destroy' the Sith - being Palpatine then in AOTC where he remarked how 'a man named Sidious is behind all this...' and also as you know - given Sith are never going to be 100% loyal to one another and even if you got the Rule of Two set by Darth Bane - if the fact the Sith Apprentice must kill the Sith Master to gain the Power and the Darth mantle and be the new generation of the Sith Lord - so ... surely treachery and such is ripe and rife in the Sith anyhow so hence Count Dooku would disclose some of Palpatine's involvement in the works now and then eh?

    On a side note - Count Dooku did consider hunting down Palpatine just around the time of TPM and destroying the Sith but he felt eventually it would not help much and the Galaxy was fated for a big 'major change-over' in the end and it was inevitable ... and how when Palpatine approached him how Palpatine was able to 'persuade him' and see that their goals and views were not too uncommon ...

    Well - as we know Count Dooku trained Qui-Gon Jinn and in turn he trained Obi-Wan Kenobi - and logically he would be the ideal potential choice for Count Dooku to try to recruit eh? Plus how Count Dooku he 'taunted' Obi-Wan Kenobi in the catacomb hangar duel on Geonosis 'Master Kenobi ... you disappoint me ... Master Yoda holds you in such high esteem...' and hence given if Master Yoda no doubt was very wise and powerful hence why not then have Obi-Wan Kenobi as a potential recruit eh?

    Also - Count Dooku was 'charismatic' in his own right given how he was (well with Palpatine's backing and instructions) able to convince thousands of Star Systems to work for the Separatists under him ... and Count Dooku was then a leading member of the Jedi Council prior to his resignation - even if controversial and outspoken at times ...
    Iron_lord and Ananta Chetan like this.
  7. TrandoJedi

    TrandoJedi Jedi Master star 4

    May 4, 2011
    Count Dooku has one always been one of my favorite characters in the PT (like many PT characters though this is because of the EU, much of which I need to rediscover) and it may be because of somewhat different view I've had of Count Dooku compared to most. You see, when Dooku told Obi-Wan to join him and revealed Sidious I believe there was a form of deception behind it but truly meant it as a way to Obi-Wan indeed joining him and defeating Sidious together. Kinda sound like Vader and Luke sure but I don't believe Dooku had the typical Sith intentions behind this, in fact I have the silly belief that although using the dark side, Dooku was not a Sith and never was. Although I have changing interpretations of Dooku's intentions, the one thing I have a firm believe on is that Dooku wasn't acting as a Sith. He might of even believed he was acting as a Jedi, despite now using the dark side of the Force.

    I think Dooku left the Jedi Order as he truly believed the Jedi and the corrupt Republic it served had long lost their way, and wished to change it. I think when Sidious got involved is when perhaps Dooku's ideas of changing the Republic became less noble and more destructive. Qui-Gon Jinn to me was the example of a perfect Jedi in this era, perhaps Dooku was at one point as well and believed Obi-Wan and have the same ideas. Of course Obi-Wan was very devoted to the Order (perhaps even blindly at times) and it wasn't until after the Clone Wars he would become that "perfect" Jedi. Although Qui-Gon may of agreed with Dooku somewhat if he was still alive, I don't think he would of joined him and betray the Council....maybe.

    I wish George didn't kill him off the way he did. I like to think the Jedi would finally see that perhaps their Order had lost their way and needed changing (this would be a little too late due to Sidious' plans however). Dooku would then decide that destroying the Jedi is wrong (perhaps not immediately but eventually) and try to defeat Sidious and of course fail. It would been a far better end to the character for me than what we got in ROTS.

    Yeah, something like that. Dooku may of been trying to save Obi-Wan from the Order at the time (or maybe trying to save the Order by revealing Sidious?).
    whostheBossk likes this.
  8. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 16, 2002
    A little bit of what was mentioned above in that the two (Dooku and Kenobi) would have made a terrific duo in starting a new leadership group OR what seems to be implied in the films is that Dooku and Sidious want the Jedi to start investigating so when they find out and turn on the Chancellor, they will be looked as traitors. This is how they have been all set up and what was said by Dooku in AOTC is just part of a wider scale plan.
  9. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 22, 2015
    Count Dooku was trying to recruit Obi-Wan as his apprentice as he was powerful and skilled, no dark lord of the Sith would have passed up an offer of temptation to put the seeds of the darkside into someone's mind without them knowing it.
    ConservativeJedi321 likes this.
  10. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Mar 19, 2016
    sowing the seeds I believe.

    An enemy of yours tells you a (relatively) trusted ally is really the bad guy and your supposed to believe him? I'm pretty sure he was just sowing the seeds of doubt in the Jedi, which grew into the outright mistrust that is spoken of in III.
  11. Scott109

    Scott109 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Apr 22, 2016
    I think that Count Dooku was genuinely planning to overthrow Sidious. Remember, the nature of the Sith is betrayal.
  12. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 16, 2002
    Obi Wan turned him down so he then went looking for an apprentice and found Ventress.