main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Saga Droids aren't welcome in restaurants and clubs but it's okay if they serve the food?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jason79, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    From a certain point of view, people are only organic machines.

    A sufficiently complex and self-aware machine can be, to all intents and purposes, an inorganic person.

    The question is- where do various droids fall on this spectrum- the least sophisticated, and the most?
     
  2. J_Girl

    J_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Are you seriously trying to pull that Kenobi excuse? [face_laugh] From a certain point of view....[face_talk_hand] Nice try. ;)
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It was a gentle nod to the Star Wars mythos in general. While Kenobi's specific example was dubious- the general point, that not everything is objective- is sound.

    Even if some droids are "glorified calculators" that doesn't mean all are.
     
  4. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Uh, I think you might be taking this a bit too literally.
     
  5. J_Girl

    J_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    This is what I thought when I read through the previous replies, but then again, this is the JC. This is exactly where a discussion like this should take place. No need to take part in it if it isn't your cup of blue milk.
     
  6. SnakeWesker

    SnakeWesker Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2006
    I've thought this since the prequels came out. The bartender still has anti-droid sentiment from the Clone Wars.
     
  7. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2012
    When I say that you might be approaching the topic too literally, I mean that you’re stretching to exclude any substance concerning the idea of rights and freedoms (one often associated with robots of sci-fi) by approximating the fictional droids of this fictional, far-fantasy universe with, and in turn reducing them to, mere electronic goods of our modern day reality. In short, I think rather poor the analogy that, say, C-3PO is no more sentient than a "smartphone". Logically, droids are manufactured, sure. But these films clearly establish them as genuine characters capable of humor, trust, friendship and even heroism. Therefore, the various degrees of their treatment and disposal depicted throughout the saga is, in my opinion, intended at least to highlight some minimal theme of how we humans are quick to dehumanize. This is not a central story-point, granted, but it is one of many leitmotifs that help constellate this grand myth as a morality tale.

    Now, if you’re already on board with this mindset but are simply speaking against the droids as one might -- a swarthy trader, perhaps -- within the storied settings, so be it. On such a level, I’m still inclined to disagree, and can easily imagine a Shylock equivalent protesting in defense for all droid-kind; perhaps they do not bleed when pricked, as we do, but they certainly experience fear of destruction nonetheless. That has to count for something.
     
    Cryogenic and StarWarsVerses like this.
  8. J_Girl

    J_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Well, thank you for that clarification. I did take it the wrong way. So thank you for that. And don't get me wrong, I love droids - well, not all of them - and R2 is my own personal hero. However....

    I still disagree. Droids are not sentient. Just because an iphone or a galaxy s3 can answer questions with smart@$$ remarks does not mean they should be classified as sentient. C3PO and other droids can be turned off. No sentient can be turned off and back on again.

    They are programmed to interact with humans. The robots being developed today are being programmed with 'personalities' so that humans can comfortably interact with them much the same way computers have evolved to be more user friendly. It wasn't necessary to build operating systems for computers to get better, but it was necessary if technophobes and the non-computer savvy were ever going to use a laptop, swipe a debit card, have an 75 yr old able to text. Machines need to be as accessible and relatable to humans as they can be for they to be truly useful.

    People are naturally distrustful of machines and I think that is the whole point of the discrimination that you are seeing. We see the Empire defeated by Ewoks. They had no technology and that was the point. The evil Empire and the 'technological terror' of the Death Star was ultimately defeated by little organic beings running around in a forest. They didn't discriminate against technology - they thought 3PO was a god! Yet after hearing the story - notice all the sounds of technology 3PO uses in his tale - they are willing to join in the fight. It reflects the whole mythological core of overcoming great odds.

    They can be programmed to build on their knowledge the way a smartphone gets better at understanding one's accent, that doesn't make them sentient. It makes them far advanced.

    Is is discrimination that should be compared to our own world's discrimination against certain races? I actually find that far-fetched, imo.

    If you want to get to the heart of it, you would have to look at GL's take on robots in general from his early movie concepts which I am not going to go into here because that belongs on a different thread in a different forum. I still believe they are not supposed to represent some sort of race that has been prejudiced against. Again, there is already a huge theme of discrimination going on within the organic world of GFFA, why would there need to be against the droids?

    If you are contending that SW is a science fiction movie rather than a myth-based story than you will only look at this in the cold calculated straight lines of science fiction. Don't let the lightsabers fool you, SW is mythological and that is exactly what GL intended.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Now, yes. In the Star Wars universe, this may no longer be true.

    Darth Plagueis (in the Darth Plagueis novel) had learned the trick of bringing recently dead people back to life.
     
  10. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    and to avoid stairs for R2. No need having 4 characters meet with Han and Chewie
     
  11. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I don't really like the portrayal of droids as being nearly sentient (most notably in the Clone Wars cartoon). I think the comment by HK-47 in KOTOR where he says he's bound by his programming hits it much closer to the mark. So yeah, droids have personality and all but at the end of the day they lack free will.
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There are plenty of theories that hold that humans lack "free will".
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It would be very interesting if the Clone Wars turned people against droids.
     
  14. Death T

    Death T Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Guys, they are machines. It does not matter. The clones and Jedi had absolutely nothing to feel sorry about when they were slicing up machines pointing guns at them. Hell, make a bunch of droid children and dice them all up with light sabers. They absolutely should not have any "rights". People are just so eager to observe elements of racism in fiction now in days that you have these absurd notions of prejudice against robots on a Star Wars message board. Sure, they are 'slaves'. Oh my god. Duh.

    This guy below me is also capable of humor, trust, and friendship. You used to could find him for twenty bucks at Walmart. If I took him into Denny's and let him walk around on the floor while servers and customers were walking around then I would probably be asked to put him away. Also keep in mind that droids in SW are relatively large, take up even more space than this little guy here, everyone's got one, and they are capable of spying on and attacking people among other things. A lot of dining establishments would probably ask their customers not to bring their droids with them into the restaurant, especially congested bars in Mos Eisley.

    [​IMG]

    I see what you guys are trying to do here, and that's fine and dandy but... Sometimes things are just that simple. I'm not narrow minded because I don't feel sorry for a responsive computer that walks around. They're not 'sentient' at all.

    Having said all that, I love R2 and 3PO. They're cool 'characters'. But the one who's taking the topic too literally is the one actually trying to make a case for "droid rights" on the Internet. [face_whistling]
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Why would Lucas include the scene of droids being "tortured" in RoTJ- if he didn't intend the audience to feel sorry for those droids?
     
  16. Death T

    Death T Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    What are you talking about? R2 and 3PO? Sure everyone loves those stupid little robots. Doesn't mean Lucas intended to make a huge deal over droids being used "as slaves" and not being allowed in restaurants.
     
  17. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Keeping A.I. in check in SW is one of the many things borrowed from Dune.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The scene where Jabba's senior droid is having droids tortured. Along with much screaming.
     
  19. StarWarsVerses

    StarWarsVerses Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2013
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    What do you call anesthesia?

    And let's not exclude the sci-fi dream of suspended animation, either.

    Or, for that matter, the different stages of sleep and cognitive functioning.

    "No sentient can be turned off and back on again" is a bit like saying, "there weren't iPads in the First World War". It's a non-sequitir.

    I've seen a few of them thrown around in this thread. Quite scary, actually, how many people try to rationalize slavery, and the criteria they use to weigh sentience and person-hood.
     
    minnishe likes this.
  21. J_Girl

    J_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Anaesthesia is not an organic living being dying and coming back to life. A sci-fi dream? I'm not addressing a sci-fi dream.

    Machines in the WWI could be turned off as in 'go completely dead' and be turned back on again, akin to R2 biting the dust in Luke's x-wing in the Death Star trench. They "repaired" him and was able to turn him back on. If the didn't, he wasn't considered dead, he was considered unusable parts. Same thing: computer motherboard fries, put a new one in and turn it back on. I'm not connecting the dots closer.

    My entire problem was comparing the so-called 'plight' of droids to slavery that living breathing beings go through. In my opinion, that is a horrible thing to do. And that is why my point is that while I love droids, they are machines. They are not discriminated in a way akin to slavery. To me, that is taking it way too far.
     
    Death T likes this.
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    How about Transformers? If humans were to (somehow) "enslave" them in a later movie- would you consider it "not slavery because they are machines"?

    At what point do droids become "the Star Wars equivalent" of sapient machines in other franchises?
     
  23. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    I would argue at the point when they aren't manufactured and programmed by organics. The robots in Transformers movies have their own "spark" which seems different from a droids programming in Star Wars.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustAMachine
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrewBeyondTheirProgramming

    I wonder just where droids can fall on the scale?

    Even if one doesn't know for sure, a certain amount of acknowledging the possibilities, might be a good thing.

    Clones are, to a degree, organics manufactured and programmed by other organics.
     
    bstnsx704 likes this.
  25. sethg

    sethg Manager Emeritus star 2 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    this is along the lines of what i was thinking. a droid isn't going to order anything, so whatever space they occupy is a space that could be occupied by a paying customer.