Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by SuperWatto, Nov 10, 2012.
you're arguing about the likely provenance of holy texts with a believing mormon. like, just fyi
I know. I can't help it.
Well that is what Carotta is trying to do with his book. The arguments appear to be excesively vague because..they are. The listed 'coincidences' in the opening post is really all Carotta has and the fact that many of the titles ascribed to Jesus, i e "Lord Saviour", "Son of God" etc etc were also ascribed to Caesar. Again very vague, but that is why nobody takes this thesis seriously and why I think it is safely "debunked".
Do avoid personal attacks, mmmmkay? Debate the position, not the person.
A religion that has been laundered for over a millennium. Known to have cribbed from all other myths and religions before it. Known to have been passed on first by word-of-mouth, and then through multiple translations. Would you agree with me that the origin of anything in its holy texts is vague?
That religion has become a worldwide religion because there was a moment when it exploded into society. Suddenly, everyone was a Christian. In the middle of a Roman Empire. Isn't it weird that the Romans suddenly all dropped their Mercurius and their Apollo and embraced a Jew?
In essence, is judging these claims on their vagueness fair, when their true history has been made vague?
Did Christianity suddenly explode into Roman society overnight? I'm not sure I agree with that claim. Even if it did, was it because the Jesus story was promoted as a re-telling of the Caesar legend? The only evidence for this claim is presented by Carotta.
You can't really judge the validity of Carotta's claims against a general criticism of the origins of the gospels. Even if we all agree that the authors of the gospels are anonymous and the text itself is dubious in terms historical reliability, we have that text by way of a comparison. You have to judge Carotta's claims on the evidence which he presents, the underlying authenticity of the Gospels is largely irrelevent. Wocky's objection is therefore a valid one. Looking at the bible on a purely historical basis, we get the story of the life of Jesus primarily from the Gospels. If Carotta's claims have any validity then you should be able to point to specific parts of the Gospels which mirror the hagiographies of Caesar.
The 'similarities' presented by Carotta and summarised in your opening post in support of his claims are so tenuous and vague that it is little wonder biblical scholars haven't even bothered to mount a refutation. There is certainly evidence to support the claim that aspects of Roman culture and society were introduced into the Jesus narrative to fill in some blanks and to make Christianity more appealing to Romans, but there is no credible evidence whatsoever to support the proposition that Jesus was modelled on Caesar.
My girlfriend says, what are you typing about so fervently?
I say, Jesus Christ Julius Caesar.
She says, don't curse.
I have to be honest, I still have difficulties wrapping my mind around the idea of Jesus being Julius Caesar. Even around the idea that there might not have been any Jesus - the Bible is just still so ingrained in our society and my upbringing and my subconscious. So examining this, I think, is a fun exercise.
It seems impossible to us now that the Roman dictator's war stories could be transformed into the story of the son of a Suddenly Benevolent God within a few centuries. But if you realize that people back then couldn't copy a book, let alone write a book, let alone read a book - and then realize that ten generations could have passed between Caesar's death and the writing of the gospels - it suddenly becomes clear how maddeningly clueless that society must have been, by today's standards. Ten generations of fathers telling their sons stories about things they couldn't quite comprehend. Transforming Caesar into Christ through ten illiterate generations is entirely possible, now it just needs to proven.
And we can't, because of that same illiteracy. Oh well.
I'll give Jello 24 hours to chime in but then I guess that's it with Carotta, and we'll have a shared win between Hoth and Wocky!
And... congratulations Hoth and Wocky!
Next up, I have the choice between something ancient, something renaissance, and something current. Which one should I do?
I second that.
I say current.
I second that as well. I'm happy with either really.
"Did aliens sink the Maine?"
did racist aliens kill lincoln??!
Are Moon Nazis real?
Some Cryptozoology stuff would be interesting, always fun to debate the existence (or not) of Bigfoot or the Yeti and so on.
Hmmm... the trophy images failed to load. Here it comes now.
Here you go...
Oh.. ah... thanks
So what is the next topic?
Master Of Disaster
The Official Story
HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes.
The HAARP program is committed to developing a world class ionospheric research facility consisting of:
- The Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI), a high power transmitter facility operating in the High Frequency (HF) range. The IRI will be used to temporarily excite a limited area of the ionosphere for scientific study.
- A sophisticated suite of scientific (or diagnostic) instruments that will be used to observe the physical processes that occur in the excited region.
Observation of the processes resulting from the use of the IRI in a controlled manner will allow scientists to better understand processes that occur continuously under the natural stimulation of the sun.
Scientific instruments installed at the HAARP Observatory will be useful for a variety of continuing research efforts which do not involve the use of the IRI but are strictly passive. Among these studies include ionospheric characterization using satellite beacons, telescopic observation of the fine structure in the aurora, and documentation of long-term variations in the ozone layer.
Many suspect HAARP is more than a research endeavor. Concerns have been voiced in the Alaska State Legislature, as well as in the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament, about its impact on the environment. Since then, HAARP has been accused of being a tsunami device, a weather control device, even a time machine. The claim we will investigate is: HAARP can create earthquakes. The gentleman with the lisp in the video linked above claims it has actually done so, in Japan; I will not go that far. What I want to find out is: can it?
master of disaster
I've found that I can be temporarily excited by both natural and unnatural stimulation, but I don't see how electrifying the ionisphere could have any connection to earthquakes. Isn't the burden on those making the accusation to clarify the process by which the IRI could produce earthquakes?
People claimed that fracking in the Midwest was causing tremors, and the U.S.G.S had a reason to study it, because tremors had actually occurred in areas where fracking was taking place. What they found was that a measured increase in earthquakes was clustered around wells where deep injection of fracking wastewater was taking place. The U.S.G.S. also suggested a mechanism that could cause it - that excess wastewater pumped deep underground might actually be lubricating the faults.
I demand some kind of prize for using "excitement", "stimulation", "deep injection" and "lubrication" in a Senate post.
It seems to me the U.S.G.S approach to the fracking earthquake issue is a decent model for what happens when a claim has merit.
I was going to suggest a prize just for using "fracking" four times. Particularly that "fracking" in the Midwest has caused earth tremors. Boy, those people really know how to 'frack'.