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Oceania ELECTION 04 - Who *will* win? (Official Discussion of 2004 Federal Election)

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Ender Sai, Feb 10, 2004.

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  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I don't think the government particularly owes me anything, I just don't understand how we're expected to afford an education when we don't have the time to work.


    Hence why we get a decade or more to pay it off, I think...
    E_S
  2. HawkNC Former RSA: Oceania

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 6
    Fantastic. Now all I have to worry about is:

    - Books
    - Amenities fees
    - Living expenses
    - Parking permit
    - Travel expenses

    On the 10-15 hours of work I can manage each week without failing my subjects. I'm sure you managed to make it through uni easily enough, but I'm sure you also encountered a great many students, like I have, who struggle weekly to make ends meet whilst studying so they can get a decent job. Thanks to Nelson, it's now that much harder for them. Or perhaps the Young Libs didn't many commoners? :p
  3. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I'm sure you managed to make it through uni easily enough,

    I didn't get a scholarship to University.

    My parents aren't paying for my degrees.

    They didn't buy anything I needed.

    I worked around 30 hours a week, giving up weekends and the like, to support myself.

    So why would you assume that I made it through University easily?


    but I'm sure you also encountered a great many students, like I have, who struggle weekly to make ends meet whilst studying so they can get a decent job.

    Yeah, I did. And in a few years time they'll be making good money and moving on with their lives.

    I don't remember anyone saying life was meant to be easy, nor the world forgiving.

    Thanks to Nelson, it's now that much harder for them. Or perhaps the Young Libs didn't many commoners?

    I suspect the missing word is "meet" or the like, but it's irrelevant.

    At Uni, I was a Democrat, but their BS internal row over the GST - going from being a "Keep the Bastards Honest" party who makes the policy work to being a bunch of naive idealists with little to no grasp of economics - made we switch to young Labor. I got sick of rhetoric - it can't raise the dead, it doesn't feed people, it just shows off how erudite someone thinks they are - and so I ended up drifting to where I am now, in the centre. I support the Liberal Federal Government because I looked at what they did, and had to admit, they've made this country a vastly better place to live than it was under Keating, and despite some of the steps backwards, they're moving us forward. They're not perfect, but the alternative at the moment is a party of humanists who are promising everyone everything to get elected - they're whoring themselves out, and in the process have pissed integrity into the wind in favour of populist appeal. I'd prefer to have a government that's less than perfect but has some concept of integrity and an impressive resume than a bunch of humanists stuck in the middle of the road by wishing they were everywhere they promised the electorate they would be...

    E_S
  4. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I'd prefer to have a government that's less than perfect but has some concept of integrity

    Heh, integrity. Is that before or after their promises become non-core? Or before or after they manipulate children overboard sentiment? Or before or after they lie to the country about pretty much anything.

    Thats not to say that Labor would be better. They're all just politicians. I just hate to see the word "integrity" thrown around when we're dealing with people who lie and manipulate for a living.

    The Libs have made the country stronger economically. But I dont believe for a second that they've treated people in this country with respect, nor do I believe they have a clue about how to treat those that are worse off than the white-collar workers. Welfare and investment in public utilities and services in this country is woeful, and I cant support the Libs at all, based on this.

    Again, not to say that Labor would do much better, but I just dont think the Libs are anywhere near a paragon of virtue or integrity.


    And...besides Howards porkies about not deciding when there will be an election, can we all agree that it'll be in August? One more positive poll result, and they'll run with it.
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Thats not to say that Labor would be better. They're all just politicians. I just hate to see the word "integrity" thrown around when we're dealing with people who lie and manipulate for a living.

    OK, OK, "relative integrity"... :p

    The Libs have made the country stronger economically. But I dont believe for a second that they've treated people in this country with respect, nor do I believe they have a clue about how to treat those that are worse off than the white-collar workers

    If anything they've been a staunchly middle class party. Which is precisely the majority of Australians. And let's nor forget, was it the Member for Macklin who proudly proclaimed at the ALP conference, "The ALP and Unions are finally working together again" ?

    Not only are unions archaic, counter-productive, meddlesome, and irrelevant, but they represent around 23% of the adult blue-collar workforce in Australia; I believe it's around 11% for white-collar workers. Of course the ALP caucus has around 75% union membership, so are we to expect another ALP beholden to the interests and whims of a bunch of quasi-Marxists representing a minority of a minority? And if you think I'm being alarmist, check out ALP Industrial Relations proposals; they call for union wage bartering in companies where there is no official union but where workers have joined an outside union...

    Maybe I'm just bitter because my fat-assed, lazy boss at Big W during Uni (how bourgeois am I? I even worked in the back dock! :eek:) was the SDA (Union) rep too, and he just embodied the slovenly attitude to progress I see as synonymous with Unions...

    E_S
  6. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    the alternative at the moment is a party of humanists who are promising everyone everything to get elected - they're whoring themselves out,

    Where have you been for the last 3 months? The ALP whoring itself? That's funny.

    The Libs are doing what all governments do when they have a tough election ahead and that's $pend up big time just before the election. We've got billions for roads, billions for the environment, billions for families, one-off bribes (oops I mean family payments), tax cuts, advertising like there's no tomorrow.

    Really. Who's doing the whoring?

    What have you got against unions besides rhetoric? One lazy boss? That's a wealth of experience to base your opinions on isn't it?

    In regards to the ALP and unions, who actually began the workplace reforms regarding individual enterprise bargaining? Huh?

  7. Detonating-Rabbit Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2003
    star 5
    What have you got against unions besides rhetoric? One lazy boss? That's a wealth of experience to base your opinions on isn't it?

    Ender usually has a lot of evidence to back up his arguments, and I don't usually find that too many of his arguments lack depth, so I'll run with this. I work for Woolies (like he did Big W) and for months we have been getting screwed out by our bosses higher up. We complain, and we get screwed out further.
    My girlfriend (March_Hare) works for the Commonwealth bank, and she doesn't get tea breaks, because the manager there reasons that it is only a small branch, and therefore there are not enough people to back a teller up if they go on a tea break. She also does not get overtime.
    My brother works for Bridge Climb, and I have seen many an occasion where they have pushed people out of the company (for illnesses, for having a relationship with someone in another department). In one case, a man who was sick (and relatively high up) was shifted into a department in which he had no experience. They refused to move him back to his original department, and therefore he had no choice but to quit.
    My mum's administration at a school (not belonging to the Teacher's Union, and therefore she gets no pay increases...), and my dad also works for the CBA.

    So we all pretty much get screwed out. I have not seen any of our unions doing very much to stop this, and out union member at Woolies is on their payroll. So I doubt she'd do too much either... [face_plain]
    IMO.
  8. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    So what you are saying is their bosses are screwing them over, but nothing has happened. Have they even approached their union about it? If they make complaints to the union something usually does get done, I've seen it happen a million times.

    Currently I am working in a non union manufacturing environment and let me tell you, when we want to screw people over (for our own benefit, not out of malice) we do and there's nothing they can say or do about it because they have no collective power here anymore.

  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    What have you got against unions besides rhetoric? One lazy boss? That's a wealth of experience to base your opinions on isn't it?

    See, I thought I admitted that, but I guess it wasn't obvious enough...

    My problem with Unions is that they mean well but ultimately end up complicating matters. They almost seem to create a need for themselves since their usefulness has expired.

    And yes, the ALP is whoring itself, it wants to win so it finds every pissed off group in the country, and promises them something to make them vote Labor.

    And I have to wonder about the value in allowing a group that represents less than 20% of the actual adult workforce driving ALP Industrial Relations policy...

    Seems almost undemocratic, no?

    Currently I am working in a non union manufacturing environment and let me tell you, when we want to screw people over (for our own benefit, not out of malice) we do and there's nothing they can say or do about it because they have no collective power here anymore.


    Right, and you know what? If the ALP policy becomes law, you'll be forced to work with a union if any member of staff joins the Union. See, you can complain about how big business interests runs the Liberals - like they don't donate to both - but since 1996, we've moved from 20-something to 2nd place on the UNDP's HDI. Behind Norway; a country of beautiful people and Nordic jokes. Basically, we've the second highest standard of living on the planet, and I would like to know what giving de facto control of ALP workplace policy to the Unions will do to maintain that, since I'm looking forward to a comfortable life and not another recession "Australia had to have."

    E_S
  10. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone is in a union then we need to deal with the union? The obvious has been stated.

    I don't see any arguments against the union except the usual rhetoric.

    People will take the 38 hour week, take the sick pay, take the overtime, take the leave loading, take the 4 weeks of holidays, take the lunch breaks, take the maternity leave, take the tea breaks, take the workplace safety, take the productivity improvements etc but won't acknowledge that unions help both employees and employers or stop to think that we'd have none of the above if it weren't for the power of the collective.

    Union bashers are people that like to think they are somehow above the average person, from my experience.

  11. Detonating-Rabbit Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2003
    star 5
    Union bashers are people that like to think they are somehow above the average person, from my experience.
    Look, Uruk, we aren't bashing the union. As Ender said, they mean well but ultimately end up complicating matters.

    I agree with this, anyway. Did I not give enough examples?
    I agree that the unions serve a purpose and that they do get things done, but it certainly doesn't stop people (managers/supervisors/CSS's) from screwing out those beneath them, thus abusing the system. Where I work, we may have a 'union', but for the most part, a fat lot of good it does. And I've seen what happens when people complain, cos' there's a channel that you must go through with your complaints (at my work, anyway), and people tend to mess you around.

    Anyway... [face_plain]
  12. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Fair enough, but if you have genuine grievance and aren't getting satisfactory action from your rep, then I'd suggest contacting the union head office directly.

  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Union bashers are people that like to think they are somehow above the average person, from my experience.

    Yeah, being as how I've twice been a member of the SDA, I'm really without experience and just above the common man.

    (Well, I'd like to think I am above the common man but that's neither here nor there...)

    The first time I joined the SDA was in 1995, and I had no choice.

    Then the Howard government removed compulsory union membership from IR laws; and I joined again in 1999; however I basically rue that decision as although I didn't need any representation, the Union rep from SDA and the Union Delegate were both utter officious tools.

    And frankly, given that once the choice to join Unions became a matter of democratic choice and not mandatory policy, Union membership dropped significantly, I'd say that most Australians don't like being forced into joining Unions nor do they feel the *need* to belong to them. Nor for that matter do state ALP governments want to be associated with the policy either...

    And on another note; Bob Carr, the NSW Premier, said that the ALP foreign policy with regard to the United States is going to require serious effort not to piss the Americans off; I believe the words he used were "they're very sensititve" about such matters. Carr, for those who don't know, is something of an avowed Yankophile; he reportedly spends afternoons on weekends discussing US history (particularly civil war history, IIRC). I think this is his way of echoing the great Hon. Paul J Keating, who noted that you don't tell Americans they're wrong... ;)

    E_S
  14. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    I'm sorry, but Bob Carr is an idiot. I couldn't care less what he says about anything.

    What he should care about is how to get the bloody trains working so they run at all let alone run on time and get the hospitals working so I don't need to sit there for 5 hours with a sick child before anyone sees me and only after I have a conniption fit at the nurse behind the front desk, not stick his nose into federal issues.

    Last I heard him, he was debating Colleen McCullough about ancient Roman society and leaders while the trains were cancelled due to track problems. If it's not American civil war or ancient history he doesn't care.
  15. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    Bob Carr is one of the best politicians state or federal I've come across; and this from the mouth of a Victorian.

    Idealogically there are sound reasons to withdraw American troops, but as Bob has rightly said the Americans are all touchy and sensitive at the moment over Iraq and how badly things have gone, and to pull out would not just be counter to the interest of the Alliance but potentially threatens to sunder it indefinitely.

    I would flag a change of policy by the Latham government before an election on this issue; in fact the only thing holding him back is the rabid media and Howard Government who've decided that to change a decision in light of new information or changing circumstance is a "backflip", a term whose connotations are ineffectual and deeply pejorative.


    I'll never understand how they came to define rigidity despite changing circumstance as good and change to conform to changing circumstance as bad, but they have and sadly the Australian Political scene must now work within such torturously stupid constructs.
  16. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    Come and live in Sydney, relying on public transport for a few months and see how great a guy Bob Carr is.

    The man doesn't care about his job anymore. He truly comes across as someone who doesn't give a toss these days.
  17. HawkNC Former RSA: Oceania

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 6
    Bob Carr is one of the best politicians state or federal I've come across; and this from the mouth of a Victorian.

    From the mouth of a Victorian who's spent a couple of weeks in Sydney, I have to disagree with you completely. It's no secret I'm more in favour of federal Labor than Liberal, but Carr's a massive tool irrespective of what party he belongs to. Health and public transport are prime examples of what he's done wrong during his time. Uruk's right, you can't even catch a bloody train in Sydney without leaving a week ahead if you want to get there on time.
  18. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Bob Carr, the man that commissions enquiries into things, and then ignores the outcome of them.

    I coulda sworn that the enquiries said that private motorways werent the way to go. Yet we get them now more than ever.

    I coulda sworn that the enquiries said that they needed to change the public transport system. Build train lines out to the greater west. Change the way the trains are run in the city. Yet he decided that new train lines werent needed. And the trains in the city are worse than ever. Hell, out to the greater west, there is a million odd people, and zero public transport. And he refuses to do anything about it.

    Public health system is in worse shape than ever. Education is in a shocking state. Things just dont work here. And Carr doesnt care.

    Worst. Premier. Ever.

    And his federal aspirations? Dear god no.
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    However, the medicine (Brogden) is worse than the disease (Carr).

    In a sense, I'd equate Latham and Brogden, except Latham has more money to spend on convincing people of his worth than Brogden. But that's my cynical touch.

    [face_flag]

    E_S
  20. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    I guess I'm just an anti-incumbent voter. I want Brogden in and I also want Latham in.

    I hate the smarmy, arrogant, overconfidence of incumbents once they've been there a while.

    It's a shame I didn't get overpaid for the one-off family allowance. Seems if you get overpaid, you can keep the money. There's a case where a woman was paid $20,400 instead of $2400 and she doesn't have to give the money back. Oh, the joys of a hasty, ill conceived election bribe. Economic geniuses at work, stand back!
  21. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    Is it just me or does all this anti-Latham muck raking that's going on at the moment reflect poorly on the government? It makes the Libs look desperate to my eyes.
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    You obviously haven't heard Rudd in parliament. He'll soon have enough yeast from the bottom of the barrel to make some Vegemite. [face_plain]

    It doesn't reflect poorly yet, because regardless of the political motivations behind it, it does raise an important point about Latham. If it's false, then yes the Government ought be punished accordingly and probably will by the electorate. However, if it's true, it raises the very strong possibility Latham is perhaps a tad immature to hold the office of PM. Now, I appreciate that as the un-incumbent ;) , he makes an attractive choice for you Uruk because he's the main threat to the Howard Government, but what if the assault allegations in Liverpool are true?

    E_S
  23. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    What Rudd says in parliament is just that. Said in parliament, he's not hiding behind anything or anyone. What's happening here is the biggest backhanded smear campaign I can remember on any political leader since the Libs let the dogs loose on Pauline Hanson. It's all heresay and rumour spread through the Liberal biased media, orchestrated in backrooms by the Libs.

    It's pathetic. It's all being raised by people with a chip on their shoulder and a cross to bear. His ex-wife and ex-councillors.

    The "fight" 15 years ago, despite being a load of crap sprouted by a disgruntled ex councillor and his drunken mate, is ancient history. Why look back to an incident so long ago. Really, do you care what Howard did in his late 20's? Does anyone even remember back that far? :)

    It makes the Libs look scared stiff to me.

  24. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    But you forget Uruk, as we saw with the example of Howard Dean, anyone who acts in a way reflective of the average member of society, or shows some signs of personality, is crucified and hounded out of politics. You have to be a touch sociopathic, or otherwise deadly boring individual to be "in touch" with the electorate and serve in public office.


    Unless of course, god forbid, we didn't follow the usual method of selection that has gone so damn good over the last 100 years, with individuals chosen who failed SO BADLY that numerous wars, recessions and civil strife has dogged our otherwise potentially great nation.

    Iraq is a recent example, but not the only one. When our troops go to war, it is ALWAYS a failure of government. This fact is seemingly lost on the Howard Government, and thus, their time is rightly up.
  25. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    Maybe it's just me, but I would much rather a Prime Minister with a bit of dirt in his background.

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