Emperor Reborn and post ROTJ Siths

Darth-Sinister...
"We don't know if the others are Sith or just Dark Jedi. More likely the latter."

Actually we do know, of those you mentioned, there's a mix of both Sith, Dark Jedi and others.

"Vader trained Heither to try and over turn Palps, but he wasn't strong enough."

Hethrir was as far as we know a Dark Jedi or evil Force Adept.

"I don't like Flint or Lumniya. Don't quite fit in."

Both Flint and Lumiya are Sith. Flint was Vader's Sith Apprentice, Lumiya learned from both Vader and Palpatine to become the next Dark Lord (Lady?) after them.

"Brakiss and the Dark Side adepts are just Dark Jedi."

Correct.

"Not fully trianed Sith. Same with Mara and Roganda."

Mara is not a Sith or a Dark Jedi (or really even a Jedi, but that's an entirely different discussion). Same with Roganda. However, Roganda's son, Irek is a Sith.

"Callista can still fit."

Callista is presumably a Jedi who can only use the Dark Side it seems (but not necessarily a Dark Jedi). She is not a Sith.

 

Sturm Antilles-- Here is the quote you bought.

"..Anakin's off spring redeem him and allow him to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."--George Lucas(Latest trilogy release)

You can't mix the movies with EU it doesn't work. The should be viewed as to seperate universes.

I love EU as long as they don't say anything that goes against the mvoies. I read Jedi Apprentice, Young Jedi Knights, New Jedi Order, and I can't wait to read about the adventures od Kenobi and Skywalker in the days of the Republic.I consider myself an EU fan. But when they mess with Anakin Skywalker or his prophecy(Dark Empire Series), that's where I draw the line.

~Skywalker

 

What I meant was, Heither was trained to be a Sith, but is still a Dark Jedi. Filnt and Lumniya are Sith, I just don't like how the characters looked considering how the Sith appear in the movies. It's one thing if a look was established a long time ago and changed later. It's another to change while a style has been established and is being used. I know I was right about Brakiss and the others. I said that they have Sith training but aren't full Sith. Though Kuller could be a Sith. He changed his name and took on a look like a Sith Lord. I never said that Mara was a Sith or a Dark Jedi. I'm uncertain about Irek being a Sith. I haven't read COTJ in a while. As to Callista, she is a Jedi. I was refering to a plot device in ep2. It's a spoiler that builds on TPM. I don't want to spoil it for anyone who doesn't want to see it. If you do, PM me. If not then don't.

 

The movies were better when they weren't too preachy, and were just a sweet Story of Redemption. Were an evil man can ask for forgiveness, and be accepted by the force. Something that shows Grace can be achieved by the some of the most vile of evil people(I'm speaking of vader). This is my personal oppinion.

This whole adding in prophecies and New Age Mumbo Jumbo and preaching to us about Zen beliefs, imho is enough to turn myself off from the movies. Like I said before If I want to be preached to I'll go to my church of my choice.

Lucas has also, said in his interviews that his take on the stories is but one of many possible views someone can view the movie as. No one view is right, and He wants his fans to walk away with there own belief. Not have something forced down there throats, like a bad sermon.

He later went on to say he really doesn't like the fanatics that hang onto his every word like it was some gospel from heaven. He said that there only movies, and it's unhealthy to latch onto them at such a level. If you want a religion go elsewhere. But if you enjoy the movies go into them with your own oppinions, and viewpoints, his is only one possible view of the movies.

In my own personal view of the universe, It's the redemptive aspect that is important. The story in its sweetist simplicity. In this view EU just adds to the meaning of redemption. Vader had been tried by the fire, yet proved evil men can be redeemed. So too can anyone else who falls to the darkside. Yet anyone can try to walk in the darkness and try not to be burned, yet it still will get ahold of you. People in real life go through Rebellious stages, and even they can get burned. Then they get redeemed and walk the true path again. That in my personal view is the simplest most important view of the movies.

 

This is a very intresting thread. I enjoyed reading each and every post. That dosn't happen much anymore.

...and I guess thats all I have to say.

No... wait. About seperating the EU and the movies, its all opinions. Completists vs Canonists. And a whole salad bowl full of different ideas of how the saga should be veiwed. Whats wrong with that? Why do we have to flame each other for liking the Saga in different ways? Just accept and respect each others veiws and go on enjoying and sharing yours. But don't get so picky about someone's veiw that it turns into yet another flame war.

As a completist, this dosn't just go out to canonists, but everyone. I don't think there is that much... hmm, whats the right word? Hate? Discontent? Whatever it is, I don't see that much of it here, excepting a few posts. I like that. This thread has a lot of different shared veiws and I enjoy that. Try and keep it up, everyone, and lets not be crude.

 

Hethrir a sith, or having sith training? I highly doubt it. From the chrystal star he can only be said to be trained as a Dark Jedi, but not a very good one.

Kueller and brackiss, while they pretty much look like sith, there is no proof anywhere to automatically assume there sith. No where has it been said they learned sith teachings. so basically what you see are overglorified Dark Jedi, trying to emulate one of the Worst when it comes to evil, sith that ever existed. But without sith training of any sort you can't be a sith.

"I'm uncertain about Irek being a Sith. I haven't read COTJ in a while"

you won't find that sith info of irek in COTJ, only in gamer #5 mag.

"As to Callista, she is a Jedi."

A jedi who chose to use darkside powers, one to lock herself away in a machine(see exar kun, for a similer time it was done), and another time to take over someones's mind(see Dark Empire for a similer time it was done), both powers said to be of some of the darkest of powers in the TOTJ companions, the EC equates her to being like exar kun, and palpatine. Even in Darksaber it's hinted she could only touch the darkside of the force. So if she's a Jedi, surely she's lost all of her ways as one of the lightside. (she is no sith, but I don't know she'd make a great apprentice for lumiya me thinks. Duel female sith would be a cool story idea)

 

The prophecy of the Chosen one does not say that he will destroy the last of the sith only that he equals out the amount of light and dark forces

 

Obiwill...
"...he equals out the amount of light and dark forces"

We should note that's one of many possible interpretations of what we know of the Chosen One prophecy "...bring balance to the Force." Balancing the Force doesn't necessarily mean equalizing the amount of light and dark forces.

 

Well, I think we should just rest the Prophecy issue as we DO learn more about it in Episode 2 and we'll surely hear more about it in Episode 3. Perhaps we'll even hear multiple interpretations in these films, who knows?

I have a quick, kinda related question. Did we ever learn how or why Brackiss left the Jedi? I know he appeared in I, Jedi and The New Rebellion prior to the YJK, but I don't recall any sort of an 'origin' story or an explanation of why he turned to the dark side.

 

Why making things so complicated ???

If you take a close look over the entire EU and the existing movies (especially the novelasations) you will recognize that there are totally different groups and beings who claimed to be Sith:

First there are those red-skinned Aliens, who were ruled by banished Jedi who used the dark side and called themself Dark Lords of the Sith.

Then we have Exar Kun and Ulic-Quel-Droma who claim to be Sith-Lords (with the former ones they have no direct connection with exeption of Yavin and the Massassi). They were defeated around fourthousand years before ANH.

Twothousand years later the Sith-Order in the form we know from the Movies (TPM-Novelisation) was founded, defeated, only Dath Bane survived and existed until with Vader and Palpatine the last two of them died.

End of Story !!!

As to all those other guys running around, claiming to be Sith we should make it easy.
Since they don´t have an impact on the main EU (never mentioned in any of the Bantha-Books or those from Del´Ray) ignore them.

They simply have not the impact of what we can expect from a "real" Sith.

 

Perhaps an alternative way of evaluating balance is required.

In Return of the Jedi, events have come to a head: Luke Skywalker has been brought before The Emperor himself. The fate of the two-thousand year conflict rests here.

If Luke fell to The Emperor, then Lord Vader would have been eliminated. Luke was the last chance the Jedi had. If he fell, was seduced by the dark side, then the Jedi had failed, and the Sith triumphed.

Thus, in order for balance to be restored, Luke must not have fallen to The Emperor. By destroying the Phantom Menace, Lord Vader enabled the New Hope to mature.

Now, fast forward to Dark Empire.

The Phantom Menace has returned, but lo and behold: If he triumphs over Luke now, the dark side is not the final victor. Leia remains, as well as others. Luke is no longer the fulcrum of this lever.

By destroying the Phantom Menace when he did, Lord Vader essentially robbed the dark side of its ability to win. Certainly, as evidenced by The Emperor Reborn in Dark Empire, the dark side is still dangerous, but at best, it can only now make the light side's victory a Pyrrhic one. No longer can it win, because balance has been restored.

In this manner, Dark Empire does not cheapen Anakin Skywalker's sacrifice in any way: It merely gives us, the audience, the chance to see how important Vader's sacrifice was. By giving his life, he changed the dark side's ultimate victory into a desperate---and losing---holding action.

That is the meaning of balancing the Force---it needn't necessitate the destruction of the Sith, because the Sith were not the fundamental threat; the fundamental threat which was to finally destroy the light was the Phantom Menace, who by happenstance was a Sith Lord.

 

<<"..Anakin's off spring redeem him and allow him to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."--George Lucas(Latest trilogy release) >>

That doesn't contradict anything. If it does, can you tell me what? One small quote is not enough to know the whole meaning for Anakin's redemption and the Chosen One prophecy.

So, Anakin ( with the help of Luke ) brought balance to the Force. Where does it say that Palpatine's ressurection disrupted the "balance" again? It doesn't. End of story.

Just because there are Sith, doesn't mean balance is messed up.

<<You can't mix the movies with EU it doesn't work. The should be viewed as to seperate universes. >>

Give me more examples, and then maybe I'll give you a little more credit. Because you keep changing your views...Compare these 2 posts.

"I love EU..."
"EU is nonsence."

<<I have a quick, kinda related question. Did we ever learn how or why Brackiss left the Jedi? I know he appeared in I, Jedi and The New Rebellion prior to the YJK, but I don't recall any sort of an 'origin' story or an explanation of why he turned to the dark side. >>

In The New Rebellion, it's stated that Luke found out about Brakiss' Imperial ties, and tried to show the young man the darkness within himself. Brakiss fled in terror and hooked up with the Imps again.

<<As to all those other guys running around, claiming to be Sith we should make it easy.
Since they don´t have an impact on the main EU (never mentioned in any of the Bantha-Books or those from Del´Ray) ignore them. >>

So being trained by Darth Vader, arguably the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith ever, makes them only "claiming" to be Sith?

<<They simply have not the impact of what we can expect from a "real" Sith. >>

Yet.

 

"actually he didn't jump that far, he went to a nearby planet of kaal and got into Jeng Droga's mind. Jeng Droga' his most loyal servent ever. One that loved his master so much he fed off a psychic connection. all this is from gamer 5, and AJ 7 Kaal Connection. "

That's pretty far when you're a disembodied sprit without a hyperdrive. And it probably took him awhile. He wasn't playing golf on Byss while the Rebellion beat the Empire to a pulp.

>Yes one and the same xendor, and while I agree with you, you'll find those pesky movie purists, will take the >idea of sith coming after palpy's death of any type as a front to there beliefs, if you know what I mean.

Yep, but Xendor's an old Sith, he wouldn't count.

>Well, it doesn't count,

Does that mean you agree with me?

>and who's to say how long it takes to train a sith. remember exar kun and ulic qel droma became sith lords >practically over night.

True, but they were Old Sith.

>If vader is a fully trained lord, and says lumiya is ready, she's ready. No one argues with vader.

And lives. Hey, how about this?

Vader: Congratulations, Lumpy, you're a Sith Lady now. Ready for anything.

Lumiya: But master, I'm not ready! I don't know any New Sith stuff yet! I'm just a Dark Jedi! And my name isn't Lumpy!

V: You ARE ready, or you will BE lumpy. Get my drift?

L: *Choke, gasp* Yes, master.

Later...

Palpatine: So Lumiya thinks she's a fully trained Sith?

V: Yes, my master.

P: Good, good. This will work to our advantage. Anything else?

V: I'm sorry to report that your latest superweapon was destroyed by the Rebels.

P: Drat! Oh well, it gives me an excuse to kill Lemelisk again. I'll need to whip up a new weapon, though...

V: How 'bout another Death Star?

P: Great idea, I'll put my people to work on it right away. Speaking of which, could you tuck Triclops in for me?



All these dudes aren't that great at being Sith anyway, seeing as how they just fade into the woodwork after their first defeat. They're hanging out at Daala's, I guess...

"Ok, and who is Quest?"
>One of palpatine's hands, I have given sources to find out more about him if you can find them. But in anycase >he's basically a playboy in the imperial court. He had duties spieing on people such as seti ashgad and flurry >vorru. He was the true father of irek. But everyone thought that palpatine was. Roganda made sure it looked >like palpy was the father, so she could put her son into position to take the throne in case of palpy's demise. >but palpy died early and her son was too young. She was infact enraged when trioculus was put into a position >of power for the same reason.

I always wondered who the brat's real father was...


>Mara is not a Sith or a Dark Jedi (or really even a Jedi, but that's an entirely different discussion). Same with >Roganda. However, Roganda's son, Irek is a Sith.

How do you plot that course? He never even trained under a Sith Master, he just takes a Sith corrspondence course.

TC

 

Vader had a few months to train Lumiya.If Luke did not join him,then Lumiya would sit at Vader's right hand,and after the whole failed Nagai incident,she apparently went into hiding and further studied the ways of the Sith.After all Korriban,Ziost and numerous Sith worlds are out there,with many dark secrets.Not only that but I believe Vader probided her with many books,containing Sith secrets.

Lumiya is behind the final destruction of Palpatine(Jax was her apprentice).

She's Sith.

 

"Does that mean you agree with me?"

Your point about old sith? I don't see one.

Nope just saying speaking of a jedi, is alot different than speaking of a sith.

Exar Kun was made a sith lord by a previous sith lord named freedon nadd. Kun is one of the most powerful sith lords ever, and had even enough to take Luke out. so don't tell me there not anyless important or don't count.

They still are quite powerful beings, and still cause tremendous damage and destruction to the jedi. Lumiya has been written as basically the replacement for the Bane Order of sith, secretly trained by vader breaking the rules, right under palpatine's nose.

 

My point about the Old Sith is that the New Sith are completely different, and that when it says that the Sith died with Palpatine, they mean the New Sith. And what is it with Lumiya? She just disappeared, never to be seen again? What did she do, go back to school? Get a job flipping Bantha Breakfast Biscuits at a MickyTagge's? Perform The Agony Of Tarkin with the Byss community theater? Maybe Jax killed her...

TC

 

It's called Waiting biding your time, and preparing for the sith to strike out again, when the time is right. Much like bane and apprenctice, so on and so forth did through the years.

yes old sith might be dead, but if they are brought back to life, then you got new sith.

New sith can cause alot of trouble, and be quite evil.

Even old dead sith are alot of trouble and are quite evil. They have done things just as bad as the bane sith.

 

She's currently in hiding and growing in power.....She's basically doing what Bane did after the Battle of Rusaan.

 

Suuurre she is. And we'll see her again when Gamorrans levatate.

TC

 

well, "maybe" during NJO. Since gamer 5 hinted that the vong were looking for the sith. Even Nom Anor knows another sith is out there, since he did have contact with carnor Jax, to ally the sith with the vong. Lumiya was about to contact him herself.

Personally I wouldn't mind her showing up in NJO.

 

Valiento - When was the last time we saw Lumiya? 1986 was it ? Excepting that little magazine short, we haven't heard anything from the character for well over a decade. So why all of a sudden is she and all the other lost Sith/Dark Jedi being returned from character limbo in one go? I have a feeling that the Sith are about to return and this is just reminding us who all these people are. Here's hoping

Just to be clear, i've recently been reading DE and DE2 and some online DE comments and some source stuff, and i have to say that Darth Vader's sacrifice is NOT repeat NOT down-sized. In order to return, Palps had to "merge his essence" with the clone's soul/spirit in order to take over his body. Ouch for the clone. But this means that Palps has become in part that person. He's made up of 2 people when he meets Luke. So he's a bit irrational. And Dark Side happy. Messing with these energies is how he both sustains himself (his personality) and kills himself. Strikingly similar to cigarette addiction, if you ask me.

He figures, he can experiment as much as he wants cause he can move into another body when he's done. It's a pretty quick way to figure out how much power can be utilized. But then, he deludes himself as to Luke's motives. He says "oh that pesky Skywalker can try to betray me all he wants, he'll just fail and become more Dark-Sided." See how far Palps degenerated in one go? Then he dies.

Luke kills most of the clones then Palps comes out and takes him over with the Dark Side. Palps goes to the NR base in his big ship and demands that Leia come to him. Which she does. BTW, it doesn't occur to him to use Eclipse to kill the Rebels. No, he'll use a Force storm for that. He didn't take losing Luke well. Such a poor loser. Then he dies.

When he comes back in DE2, one must assume that he must have accelerated the cloning schedule, due to Luke's disruption earlier. Which means that not only does he have at least 4 Palpy's muddying his head, but he's partially insane and obssessed. At this point, Lumiya realises how far he's gone. She takes steps. Two Dark Siders try to kill all the clones but don't succeed and Palps comes back anyway. Lumiya and Jax then persuade the physician to tell Palps that he's dying, which is true, but that soon he will not be able to come back, which might be true. He then points Palps in the direction of his obsession : the powerful Jedi Skywalkers. A suicide mission from the start, given his conditionand the fact his only companions are just extensions of his own power. After he's shot, he makes his move and Brand directs him into himself. As a Jedi Knight, Brand overcomes Palps and remains himself whilst Palps is merged with him. Brand dies and Palps is stuck to him and dies as well.

What Darth Vader did was kill Palpatine. Palpatine could come back, but the method would only degenerate him and ultimately result in a painful, final death. This way, Palps just gets to suffer more as befits a man who killed the Jedi, overthrew the Republic, ordered trillions of deaths and was just all-around evil. He was marked for death and his attempts to come back to life did not work.
In this aspect, both Luke and Mara are right. In one sense, it was the Palpatine that died in RotJ that Luke faced. And again it wasn't exactly, just a cruel spirit merged into a double-souled freak that could not survive.

Ahhhh. Now i can take a breath.

TC - I bet Piggy could levitate himself if given the chance.

 

I, Jedi shows us how Brakiss fits in and what casued him to leave. It takes place during the Jedi Acdemy triolgy. Told from Corran Horn's point of view.

 

DaJames...
"Valiento - When was the last time we saw Lumiya? 1986 was it ? Excepting that little magazine short, we haven't heard anything from the character for well over a decade. So why all of a sudden is she and all the other lost Sith/Dark Jedi being returned from character limbo in one go? I have a feeling that the Sith are about to return and this is just reminding us who all these people are. Here's hoping"

Not entirely true, DaJames. It depends on who you meant when you said "we." We saw Lumiya in an entirely new story and character summary in 1995's Star Wars Galaxy Magazine #3. It was here where here actual status as a Sith was outright confirmed (beyond the overwhelming allusions in the original Marvel source). For this article, look here:
http://www.rpghost.com/bhyper/cantina/lumiya.html

Then, in 2000's "the Essential Chronology," she was outright confirmed (beyond the mere overwhelming allusions in the original Marvel source) to be an Emperor's Hand.

In between the SWG article and EC, Dark Horse Comics republished early Marvel comics, of which several were Lumiya's "origin stories."

In addition to those, Shira's EU summary in Luke's EU Databank entry on TOS is generally as about as long as Mara Jades'. That's reasonable, considering the major effect Lumiya has had on Luke's life.

So, a focus on Lumiya isn't a new phenomena - LFL has been focusing on her in various ways for the last six years at least.

 

Well according to the Dark Empire source book,non of the clones Palpy took had personalities....nor did they have souls.They were just mindless physical copies.

 

Palpy was not stupid, he did not flashburn his memories or his thoughts into a clone before he was to take over spiritually. What he had was blank bodies, who like a newborn child has absolutely nothing in it's head.

Let's not forget he had changed clones multiple times before ROTJ, once in "vader's return", and according to the Adventure Journal newbroadcasts, he traveled to byss multiple times on at different times before rotj. Palpy was not lieing when he told luke that taking a clone was not his first time in DE. His technology never changed, it was exactly the same. The only difference was near the end of his clones his own adepts were beginning to poison his clones. People who want to live, knowing they might die get very very desperate. Desperation looks like madness to most people who see it, since it makes a person act out more than there personality useally is.