Emperor Reborn and post ROTJ Siths

>In gamer 5, Jerec and brandle were hinted at being hands, along with every >other darksider.

Oh come on, everyone can't be a Hand! Palpatine had a hundred or so Dark Jedi, only a few were Hands.

>On the entire Sith issue originally brought up, didn't anybody notice that Darth >Vader's title is actually Dark Lord of the Sith. It is confirmed pretty much >everywhere. Dark Lord was the title traditionally given to the predominant Sith >Lord. Yet Palps is clearly in command, and no longer refers to himself as >Darth Sidius.

Actually, Dark Lord of the Sith and Darth are the titles for any Sith apprentice who has completed his/her training. That's all in the Darth Maul Journal.

>Well according to the Darth maul journal, Darth Maul was darth maul, when >palpatine/darth sidious told him that there was another sith being trained if he >failed would take his place.

Actually, he was only Maul at the time, having not yet passed the final test for becoming a Sith Lord.

>Palpatine had been breaking tradition even back then. showing that He didn't >care to follow archaic rules and traditions created by a sith 1000 years before.

Although it's quite possible he was lying when he said it, Palpatine told Maul that this was not true. He had been using that lie to drive Maul to anger, and to remind him that he was dispensable. The novelzation of TPM makes it quite clear that Palpatine was still loyal to the old Sith ways.

>He was a sith lord, but like lumiya, Darth was never used as title anymore.

It could be that he was still an apprentice during CE.

I just realized something. All this new info, rather then compounding the problem, has solved it. By giving all of the credit to Vader, and not Palpatine, for Lumiya's Sith training, they have kept Palpatine as a loyal member of the Sith. Also, by making Jax Lumiya's apprentice, Vader WAS responsible for Palpatine's death, the beginning of the end of the New Sith and the Empire, and the Balance of the Force. Think about it. By taking Palpatine out of the running for six years, he gave HIS apprentice Lumiya time to train an her own apprentice who would later poison the Emperor's new clones. I'm not saying Vader knew all of this, but that's the way it worked out. The moment of truth did come in RoTJ. If Vader hadn't tossed the Emperor down the shaft when he did, none of this would have happened. For all intents and purposes, Palpatine was dead when he disintegrated in the second Death Star. Thanks to Vader (or, rather, Anakin) all his attempts to return to power were doomed to failure.

Now that ought to make everyone happy, right?

TC

 

"Oh come on, everyone can't be a Hand! Palpatine had a hundred or so Dark Jedi, only a few were Hands. "

Dude...even Vader has been hinted as being Hands.It's just a title for special agents that do his bidding.And there are certain ranking Hands.

Vader being a Sith Lord,would be the highest ranking hand.

And TC might be right.Yes,at one timew Dark Lord of the Sith was the highest rank,but Bane changed things it seems.Dark Lord seems to denote the Master's apprentice.The Dark Lord of the Sith is heir to all the Master knows.A Sith Master,now seems to be the highest ranking Sith.

Of course that just speculation of mine,based on what's said in the Star Wars core rule book.We'll just have to wait for the Dark Side source book.

 

>Dude...even Vader has been hinted as being Hands.It's just a title for special >agents that do his bidding.And there are certain ranking Hands.

Yes, it's a special title, but not all of Palpatine's Dark Jedi are Hands. They are but an elite few.

>And TC might be right.Yes,at one timew Dark Lord of the Sith was the >highest rank,but Bane changed things it seems.Dark Lord seems to denote the >Master's apprentice.The Dark Lord of the Sith is heir to all the Master >knows.A Sith Master,now seems to be the highest ranking Sith.

Yeah.

TC

 

"Jerec..., aldaric..., and his darkside adepts..., From these he made an elite cadre, who became to be known as the emperor's hands."
-emperor's pawns, gamer 5.

later in the article the prophets of the darkside are hinted to be hands, and we know they can give hand status to people, see maarek. so that's alot there.

(ellipse denotes more info about that character's past before joining the empire.)

while that's doesn't denote all of the darksiders were hands, it denotes quite a bit were(definatly more than a few.), and definatly says mara was completly off, thinking she was the only one. Being called a hand is really not all that special.

Those that aren't hands probably get drafted in the Dark Trooper units, some other special commando force-sensitive group, or other special guard.

 

I like TC's solution. Also, in the ANH novel, the guy in the cape is called "Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith." If you take the Darth literally, that becomes DaRk lord of the siTH Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith. Huh?

The Darth is a title given to Bane's line of Sith and to those who follow his tradition. At the time after Ruusan, Bane was the only Sith left. In ancient times, Dark Lord of the Sith meant the top dog. Sith Lords Marka Ragnos and Simus fought for the title and Ragnos 'killed' Simus, who came back as something else to tutor Sith Lord Ludo Kressh (sp). After the fight, it was Marka Ragnos, Dark Lord of the Sith. Therefore, Bane, who is the most powerful and the leader by default, has the right to the title. Then he changed things to add the 'Darth' to everyone in his order. Qui-gon specifically says that he fought "a Sith Lord" meaning he wasn't sure if Maul was a Dark Lord or not. As a Jedi Master, he ought to be up on the terminology.

Where is it said that Lumiya gave up the Darth title? I know she claimed it (as a Dark Lady, not Dark Lord, a sure sign that feminism is creeping into the Sith) but i didn't know she abandoned it. Carnor Jax's mission was supposed to be secret. Therefore, if he did have the Darth title (which he probably hadn't got yet) he would have to keep it a secret, so the Emperor and the Adepts and the Jedi wouldn't catch on. Carnor Jax might not even be his real name. It probably is, though.

One such Force-using, Imperial, non-hands, special group were the Royal Guard

 

You miss the point Ghentz. Looking at the saga as a whole, we know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. None of the Imperials, including Tarkin know this. Vader is the only canon character to know this. If Tagge or Motti said something in front of Palps, he'd roast him alive. And yes I'm a fan of ANH. I just watched the other day. Read carefully to my last post.

 

First off, no where official, does it say Darth means DARk lord/lady of the siTh.

Bane was the first to be called that, because it was his name. Older sith might have fought over the Title Dark Lord of the Sith. But none of them were called Darth. this went all up to bane, no one named darth.

as for bane, Remember there was one above, him, Dark Lord of the sith kaan.(He was not Darth Kaan.) So bane was just one of many sith with the title dark lord of the sith, yet he was the only one with the name Darth(It's a name like garth, or barf(spaceballs), or sidney, .)

In "bane of the sith" we find out that bane was very limited in his own sith training. he had to go to dxun, and raid the tomb for a sith holocron, to get his final training. While he was huanted by sith spirits calling him a failure and a mistake to the sith cause, and not a true sith.

It was Darth Bane's name, and he gave it to those that followed his way, a bit of egotism on his part, and a living tradition making sure he as the first of this new type of sith should have his name remembered and revered. down the ages, darth rivan, ...., darth sidious, darth maul, darth ...., darth vader. Officialy Lumiya was, and still isn't even given the title darth, for very important reason, vader was hiding her under palpatine's nose. To call her darth would have given her away to his master. So the darth tradition ends there. Lumiya never was named darth, and she never passes on darth to her dark lord aprentices. Yet she is considered the New sith line much like how bane originally taught the sith, and hiding in wait.

 

Val, where did you get that information? Is it merely speculation? I don't recall being told Bane's first name was "Darth".

Additionally, I don't get the feeling Kaan is "above" Bane. It seems more likely to me that Bane and Kaan were rivals and Bane's poisoning by Githany (perhaps [hopefully!] more treachery was involved) helped sway support of the other "lords" towards Kaan's faction.

Lastly, while Bane did seek out further instruction in the ways of the Sith, I don't think he's a novice. The spirits on Dxun appear to be taunting/testing Bane.

 

Well I have to side with Valiento...I think it's becoming more and more likely that Darth is just his name.

Actually according to Dark Forces,Kaan is their leader.

 

Yes, as matt said. also see "bane of the sith" by kja, for some more info about bane. Also secrets of the sith tells that kaan was the one in controle, and goes into more detail about bane(and his not being fully trained) and ruusan. I'm honestly not making any of this stuff up.

 

I'm not accusing you of making anything up, Val. I was just wondering if any of this was 100% fact (as in published). I have most of my stuff packed up since I'm moving in a week, but I'll do some looking around. While I could stomach the idea that "Darth" was Bane's first name and that he, being to egotist that he might very well have been, deemed his name to become the very title by which a Sith is labeled, I don't recall this ever being established. Perhaps WotC's Darkside Sourcebook will be of some help here. Come on August!

I'm fully aware that Kaan leads the Brotherhood of Darkness on Ruusan. As I said above, it's plain that the other Sith side with Kaan. However, I do not think Kaan is superior to Bane in any other capacity. While Dark Forces shows the sheer evil embodied by Kaan and the Brotherhood, the way they are portrayed in Jedi vs. Sith, I find it hard to imagine that Bane and Kaan are that far apart in Sith training and/or ability. Certainly the whole poisoning thing leads one to believe that the struggle for power among the Sith has been both recent and heated. I do not think Kaan is the reigning master. Perhaps there is cause for a wonderfully dark backstory explaining why Kaan's in control and why Bane was thought dead. Please...? ?



p.s. This particular area of discussion really belongs in the Jedi vs. Sith #4 Topic

 

Valiento...
"Yet she is considered the New sith line much like how bane originally taught the sith, and hiding in wait."

However, I take issue with that point. She has not ever been considered the "New sith line" (capital - a title). She is the heir apparent and successor to the Vader/Palpatine line of Sith which has its philosophical roots in Darth Bane and includes Siths Sidious and Maul. She didn't go off and start up her own New sith line. She followed her masters' orders to become a Sith in his mold.

 

Why couldn't Bane's first name have BECOME a title?

>"Jerec..., aldaric..., and his darkside adepts..., From these he made an elite >cadre, who became to be known as the emperor's hands."
>-emperor's pawns, gamer 5.
>later in the article the prophets of the darkside are hinted to be hands, and we >know they can give hand status to people, see maarek. so that's alot there.

The key word there is "elite". Every Darksider is not a Hand. Mara may have been out of the loop, but she wasn't stupid. And weren't the Prophets of the Darkside actually an Intelligence group, with no Darkside powers?

TC

 

"Why couldn't Bane's first name have BECOME a title?"

His first name did become a title, .

Though it seems vader stopped with that tradition, from what can be seen. Though the Dark Lord aspect was not dropped.

Ghengis I mean by new, in the sense that it says she brought in new and dangerous ideas into the sith ways at the end of the article. Not that she is a new type of sith. though it seems she dropped the darth tradition, or flint would have gotten a new name, so would have jax. yet they do have the dark lord title.

She's not just new she's, better than the old, (hope that makes you happy ghengis, , you seem to brag about her all the time like she was.)

"The key word there is "elite". Every Darksider is not a Hand. Mara may have been out of the loop, but she wasn't stupid. And weren't the Prophets of the Darkside actually an Intelligence group, with no Darkside powers?"

nope the key word is "alot", more than a few of the darksiders, including all the dark side adepts were hands(according to dark empire sourcebook), they were considered elite because of there darkside connection. Think of this as a bit of racism on palpatine's part against those that are forceless.

Even those who weren't hands such as the dark troopers were considered more elite than none force using stormtroopers.

but you have to take all this info into account, because all of it shows what the hands means, we can't go by what little mara said, because palpatine kept her out of the loop.

 

No one before bane had the name darth.

secrets of the sith, says, "one sith lord escaped. His name was darth bane"

not "his name was bane, or his position was darth"

Lord Kaan was the one in charge, according to the dark forces novels and the secrets of the sith. we learn more frin j vs. s, that theres a bit more infighting than that. The ec says Sith lord Kaan brought together 20,000 devoted followers" they were his sith, he was the master. according to secrets of the sith bane's master died at ruusan. In bane of the sith Kaan was his master, and the only one to praise bane for what he was doing. Bane just wanted to get out from under his masters wing, that's why he was beggining to have rivalry with his master.

In secrets of the sith it says bane's training was left unfinished. That's why he went to the dxun to learn more. Because his training wasn't complete or well developed, that's why the other sith who surpassed him looked down on him in "bane of the sith", they considered him a failure and a reject".

It's also implied in the comic series that he wasn't complete in his training, he says that poison would not have affected a true Dark Lord of the Sith, he kind of scolds himself.

It's funny how you need all these sources to fit what happens together. Oh that's the whole fun part that era of history is because it's shrouded in darkness. With the pieces of the puzzle unfurled at last the veil has been lifted ...to reveal the Legacy of Darkness.

 

I wonder if LFL will ever give us a glance at the 1000 years preceding the Battle of Russaan. I wonder who this rogue Jedi was, who broke away from the Jedi and brought with him 50 other Jedi after the council rejected his proposal to delve into the Sith arts. From what JvS seems to show us, a lot of non Force users were on the Sith side...perhaps this war has lasted a millenia (the final battle of course, is on Rusaan) and is in fact, a true Galactic Civil War.

 

Let's take this Bane issue here.

 

It's a big step up for me, having my theories and ideas and discussions tunred over by one of the great ones like Valiento It's good to know that with one well-placed paragraph, i can make Valiento froth at the ears and fume.

My computer has continually been crashing, so sadly i can't inject my thoughts into the discussion as often as i'd like.

I thought that the Darth acronym of the PRESENT was fairly well-known. I think it came out into the light about the time Episode 1 introduced us to multiple Darths. The acronym itself isn't that great, so it probably was taken from Darth Bane's name. I could have sworn that suummaries of the later Marvels called the two new Dark-Siders ; Darth Lumiya and Darth Flint. Hmmm, i ought to check it with timetales, but i doubt my computer will even last that long.

 

No official source has ever said that Darth means DARk lord of the siTH.

It's fan speculation.

 

Just remember even if timetales decided to say that if they did, that they are unnoficial and the only sources to have lumiya mentioned do not call her Darth Lumiya.

It was just a fan based speculation/hope.

 

Then who said it ? I demand that you show yourselves !!!!.............................. ........................................ I'm waiting ....................................................
..........still waiting.........................not going to go away...................

Ah, i give up, i'm leaving.


So no official source, eh? Since i only have a couple of those guide-type thingies then it's probably in Behind the Magic CD. Next time i have it with me, i'll have a look at it.

Btw, did anyone complete the trivia on that CD ? I kept going up to about 100 correct answers then losing it to some movie-making trivia. I mean, i don't really know how they made Chewie's voice, or how many parts of Yoda were mechanised or how many days one person spent on one set.

 

The Hands were a special group of the Emperor's Darksiders. There were quite a few, but not all at once, and they were only a small part of the Emperor's Darkside forces.

TC