Empire Strikes Back and Matching With The PT

I know this is just an opinion and others may not agree but I noticed after watching the OT episodes that ESB seems to match up or hold up I guess you could say to the newere PT. I don't know if this is because it seems to visually or thematically. It's tone is darker so maybe that is part of it. I just think watching it after seeing a PT episode doesn't cause me to cringe at things as often. Another reason could be the similar themes between Luke and Anakin of the PT. Has anyone else thought this? Does anyone have any other explinations as to why this might seem true?

 

Yes TESB does match up with the PT. You have Yoda still struggling with the old Jedi ways by not wanting to train Luke because of his age. You have Luke mentioning a dream.

Really the only problem lies in A New Hope, with Obi-Wan just flat out lying to Luke to get him to start his journey, however, you're supposed to understand that if Obi-Wan would of told Luke the truth about his father, then Luke probably wouldn't of even offered to give Obi-Wan a ride to Anchorhead, and Luke would of probably curled up in the fetal position and fell into a deep state of depression.

 

The movies do match up,

TPM and ANH
Boy discovers powers and leaves Tatooine to follow a Jedi and save the girl. Boy blows up a big space ship. Mentor dies at the hands of the evil Sith. Boy looses parental figure. Girl in distress proves to be able to take care of herself. Girl saves her people. Big celebration at end, where girl is dressed in white and honores the heroes.

AotC and ESB
A male splits up from the groop and leaves the other male and the girl to go on a mission. Male and female that are together fall in love. Big rescue mission where hero fails at first. Big revelation. At the end a male and female stare into an uncertain future with two droids at their side.

RotS and RotJ
Starts of with rescue mission. An enemy is killed at rescue mission but it is not the most important enemy. Jedi vs. Sith. A war ends. Funeral. A new hope.

There are more dualities I just can't write them all down.

 

TESB is, in my opinion, the smoothest of all the episodes. It's production, and direction, is very slick. That, I believe, is why so many fans think it's the best in the series and also why it matches the other episodes so well.
They all match up, of course, but TESB is unique in a way.



Kershner - he is slick
/LM

 

Whats the revelation in AOTC? That Dooku is a Sith?

 

i was gonna ask that very same question

 

lol! same here

 

Yeah! It could be... ANH is like a time to remember... You have a brief description of how things became so darker, and some of the old characters gathered one more time in another journey, a different journey...

In TESB, as well as ROTJ, you see all those characters that were part of the past and the struggles are pretty much the same, but in a different way, from those struggles they had before...

 

My guess is it matches up best because there aren't a lot of creatures that would be made of rubber rather than CGI. With ANH there is mostly the rubber masked extras and the space choreography was limited by the technology and technique used. In ROTJ there are mostly rubber puppets and actors with fur suits that clearly look like suits because of the short hair. Atleast with Chewy the long hair managed to mask the seams pretty well.

 

Whats the revelation in AOTC? That Dooku is a Sith?

I didn't mean revelation to the audience, but to the characters and I meant the clone army. It was really shocking to the Jedi that that was going on under their noses. Luke's shock about Vader's revelation.

 

I_don't_know posted on a different thread:



posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EMPEROR
I told you to remain on the command ship.

VADER
A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.

EMPEROR (no surprise)
Yes, I know.

VADER (after a beat)
My son is with them.

EMPEROR (very cool)
Are you sure?

VADER
I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR
Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

Vader knows what is being asked.

VADER
They are clear, my Master.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So are Yoda and Obi-Wan shielding Luke from the Emperor in the Force? What is Vader being asked? Is Vader shielding Luke? Is Vader still planning his coup? I'm glad you brought this up, DarthIronClad.





Excellent question here. Let me provide some context:



posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EMPEROR
I told you to remain on the command ship.

VADER
A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.

EMPEROR (no surprise)
Yes, I know.

VADER (after a beat)
My son is with them.

EMPEROR (very cool)
Are you sure?

VADER
I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR
Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

Vader knows what is being asked.

VADER
They are clear, my Master.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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I find a lot of the meaning behind character's motivations can be found by comparing scenes from other Episodes. The scene you posted above, for example, has many parallels to this scene from Revenge of the Sith. Read the two scenes, thinking about where each scene will lead, and how the main characters involved relate to Anakin's overall character arc:


RevengeOfTheSith posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anakin:
Master Windu. I must talk to you.

Mace Windu:
Skywalker. We?ve just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We?re on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency power back to the Senate .

Anakin:
He won?t give up his power. I?ve just learned a terrible truth? I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.

Mace:
A Sith Lord?

Anakin:
Yes. The one we?ve been looking for.

Mace:
How do you know this?

Anakin:
He knows the ways of the force. He?s been trained to use the darkside.

Mace:
Are you sure?

Anakin:
Absolutely.

Mace:
Then our worst fears have been realised. We must move quickly if the Jedi order is to survive.

Anakin:
Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You?ll need my help if you are going to arrest him.

Mace:
For your own good stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgement.

Anakin:
I must go, Master.

Mace:
No. If what you?ve told me is true, you will have gained my trust. But for now, remain here. Wait in the Council chambers until we return.

Anakin:
Yes? Master.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If it was hard to see any connection between these scenes, read it again with this in mind - the EP3 scene will directly lead to Anakin saving Sidous (the unarmed "prisoner"), and betraying Mace. The EP6 scene will directly lead to Vader/Anakin saving Luke (the unarmed "prisoner"), and betraying Sidious.

 

I_don't_know also posted this on a diferent thread and I think it shows the dualities of RotS and RotJ beautifully:

This is the full ROTJ scene to go with my above post:

SIDIOUS:
I told you to remain on the command ship.
VADER:
A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.
SIDIOUS:
Yes, I know.
VADER:
My son is with them.
SIDIOUS:
Are you sure?
VADER:
I have felt him, my Master.
SIDIOUS:
Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader.
VADER:
They are clear, My Master.
SIDIOUS:
Then you must go to the Santury (spl) moon and wait for him.
VADER:
He will come to me?
SIDIOUS:
I have forseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you, and then you will bring him before me.

Some of these lines in light of ROTS:

SIDIOUS:
"I told you to remain on the command ship!"

Ep3--
Mace:
"Wait in the Council chambers until we return".

***

VADER:
"My son is with them."
SIDIOUS:
"Are you sure?"
VADER:
"I have felt him, My Master."

Ep3--
Mace:
"How do you know this?"
Anakin:
"He knows the ways of the force. He?s been trained to use the darkside."
Mace:
"Are you sure?"

Here Anakin comes to his Master, Mace, and reveals that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Mace asks if Anakin is sure that Palps is the Sith Lord.
In ROTJ, Vader comes before his Master, Sidious, and reveals that Luke is among the Rebels. Sidious also asks "Are you sure?".

***

VADER:
"I have felt him, My Master."
SIDIOUS:
"Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader."

Ep3--
Anakin:
Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You?ll need my help if you are going to arrest him.
Mace:
For your own good stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgement.

This one is really clever.
Mace senses a conflict within Anakin, over Palpatine. Mace is correct, and the conflict reaches its climax when Anakin chooses Sidious over Mace.
Sidious senses a conflict within Vader, over Luke. The conflict reaches its climax when Vader/Anakin chooses Luke over Sidious.

Yet in both instances, neither Mace or Sidious see Anakin's turns coming.

***

One more

SIDIOUS:
"His compassion for you will be his undoing."

The obvious irony here was that Luke's compassion for Vader was actually Sidious's undoing.
But Revenge of the Sith has added another layer to this line. Anakin's compassion for Padme, and for Sidious (ok, that one is debatable), is a large part of his undoing.

 

I was actually thinking about that mayself. I also think it matches thematically. I guess when I say matching I don't just mean as a mirror but I can watch it along with the PT ones.

 

I find that RotJ mirrors the PT the best in my oppinion. Because the circle is complete at the end and actually everything that Palpatine did to the Jedi in the PT comes to bite him in the ass in his final moments in RotJ.

 

Not to bash Lucas or Marquand or anything, but does anyone know why Kershner didn't direct ROTJ? He did so well with TESB it would have made so much sense to have him back. (plus, Kershner's commentary on the DVD is funny as hell, with him teetering between pointing out the obvious and making no sense at all!)
I love ROTJ as it is, but I can't help but wonder if Kershner could have made it even better.

As a side note, if David Lynch would have accepted the offer to direct Jedi, I think his sense of bizarre perverseness could have worked very well with Jabba and the Emperor.

But that's straying off topic a bit. Back to Empire, it's definately my favourite. Whether its the story itself or Kershner's involvement... I'm not entirely sure, but there's just something magically delicious about that movie. As far as fitting with the PT, I'd say ROTJ seems closer, with the broader scope and epic space battle and all.

 

What happened is for A New Hope Lucas ran the film with no opening credits; something few if any films did at the time. Those who watchdog that kind of thing let it go the first time. So when Empire was almost complete the issue of credits came up again. To make a long story short, Lucas left the organization that enforced this rule. That meant he no longer could use workers that were a part of that 'union' for lack of a better word. Marquand was a foreign director who didn't have those ties or political limitations when it came time to make Return of the Jedi.

The documentary that comes with the Star Wars Trilogy on DVD does a much greater job of shelling out the details than I have here.

 

Ah, I knew that was why he couldn't have Spielberg as a director, but I thought all that happened between the original and Empire.
Well then, those foolish guilds and their redundant "credits at the beginning AND the end" practices.
Bah.

 

Kershner once said, after viewing the completed ROTJ, that he could have done some wonderful things with the movie. He said it with a tinge (or maybe a lot) of regret. It makes me, as a fan, wonder how different it would have been with him at the directing helm, given that the larger vision is that of Lucas. Would he have made that much difference?

I realize this was a bit off topic, so I'll respond to the original post later.

 

You don't have to worry about it.

 

Well, Empire formed a huge amount of the attachment theme used a lot in the prequels. And we get glimse of Luke failing in the exact same fashion as his father. By which I refer to leaving to rescue Leia and Han, that's a blatant parallel now.


Also there is the ironic "goodbye scene" progression -

Revenge of the Sith_
-Anakin has saved Obi-Wan again and again. Anakin: "Alright, but you owe me one. And not for saving your skin for the tenth time."
-Anakin and Obi-Wan saying goodbye before Obi-Wan departs for Utapau; this is the last time they speak before meeting as enemies.
-When Anakin and Obi-Wan next meet, Anakin is a Sith (almost). Instead of trying to rescue Obi-Wan he is of course trying to kill him.

Empire Strikes Back_
-Han saves Luke at start of movie. Han: "You owe me one."
-Soon after, Han and Luke say goodbye, which is the last time they see each other until ROTJ.
-When Luke and Han next meet, Luke is a Jedi (almost). Han: "I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur!"
Now Luke is the one rescuing Han. Han: "Now I owe you one."

Little details like this make it worth it to think of the six movies as a whole.

 

In the PT, a story is built around the actions and interrelationships of certain characters - Anakin, Obiwan, Padme, Yoda, Palpatine etc, climaxing in ROTS. In ANH, I feel as though we're taken well away from this Big story for awhile. It's very much all about Luke, Han and Leia - Padme, Palpatine and Yoda don't even appear, Obiwan dies midway. In ESB you feel as though you're keyed back into that big story from the PT. The Skywalker lineage is reestablished as the central theme, Yoda is back in the picture as is Sidious. Obiwan reappears as a ghost and the PT storyline is alluded to. I think this is why ESB seems so well connected to the PT. Also, ROTS and ESB are similar tonally.

 

Good point.

 

Nahh, I'd say it's more like:

TPM and ROTJ

AOTC and ANH

ROTS and TESB

 

I noticed that during the scene where Luke prepares to go to bespin, yoda and obiwan are cautioning him against following his visions to conclusion. this is exactly what snared anakin twenty years earlier. this scene was always there, but i failed to understand why they were so against luke trying to prevent his visions from becoming real