CT Empire Strikes Back Is NOT enjoyable

Empire Strikes Back Is BORING
In spite of the number of iconic moments and characters from this entry in the series. Every time I've tried to watch, the film seems interminably long, and leaves me checking my watch multiple times, and then still fidgeting as my subjective experience of time still tells me that hours on end must be passing by in spite of whatever the clock says. But why is it this way? I think that, ultimately, the film is very poorly paced, and it's story, such as it is, is sorely lacking. Post-Hoth, it can be divided into two parts: the Dagobah and the chase.

While alright as a training montage, I'm not sure it justifies all the time spent. We don't really learn much about Luke, nor do we get any information about the Jedi that is actually relevant to the plot of the trilogy thereafter. Very little time is spent demonstrating Luke's actual intellectual/spiritual growth, and indeed most of the expansion in his capabilities happens off-screen and in-between films. What little we do get is Yoda's monologue and dialogues, which are stocked with enough generic platitudes that one would be forgiven for mistaking it as Engrish takes on a stack of motivational posters.

The escape scene from Hoth is even worse. It makes the heart of the film a chase movie in which nothing much is at stake. While there is a single high-value target aboard (Leia), it's not really clear that the Empire even knows this. Further, it's not even a chase so much as a stalemate. While they are unable to make a clean getaway, trying to find them is also a pretty hopeless task for the Imperials, as they hint at several times. Unlike in the first film, Leia is not in possession of some special knowledge that she urgently needs to get to the Rebels. No one is running short of food or water. Their life support systems are fine. There's no particular reason that the incredibly slothful "chase" has to conclude at any point in the near future. So why are we watching it?

I don't want to be unfair here. It's certainly the strongest romance in a Star Wars film. It's book ended by the stunning opening and close on Hoth and Bespin. There are interesting ideas even embedded in the stuff that seems mostly unnecessary: the space worm, the Dark Side cave, etc. But really, on the whole, I don't know how I could justify saying I "like" this movie. Especially when I try to defend it's individual components, and not just give undue weight to the "I am your father" scene.

ROTJ might be an ANH rehash, but it's far better: better music, better lightsaber duel, less whiny luke, better looking models and puppets, better space battle, etc.

Attack of the Clones can be boring at times but not consistently like Empire. Empire climaxes in the first 30 minutes with the battle of Hoth.

Attack of the Clones's Pièce de résistance happens right when it should... near the end. Attack of the Clones builds up dramatically the way it should.
Empire goes flaccid after Hoth. The Vader and Luke fight is not as epic as the battle earlier in the movie and nothing is resolved from it.

 

I love the Chase scene through the asteroid field. The Carbon Freezing Chamber until the end of the movie is one of the best sequences in film ever imo.
The lightsaber battle is the best battle in SW imo.
Nothing wrong with thinking that it is the worst film of the Saga.
With 6 films there are 720 ways to rank the films. Would be boring to see everyone agree on one way.

 

This is objectively false.

All those things Yoda says about Jedi, about the dark side, about how to know the good side from the bad, about the way Jedi use the Force (for knowledge and defense, never attack) directly inform Luke's decision at the end of ROTJ, and Luke's failure in the cave ended up being the catalyst for his growth, and directly ties into his confrontation with Vader both in ESB and ROTJ.

Luke throwing away his lightsaber as The Return of the Jedi? That comes directly from Dagobah in ESB. Without Dagobah, Luke throwing away his lightsaber would be completely out of nowhere. Luke throws away his lightsaber based on what he learned on Dagobah. Without Dagobah, Luke would be nothing more than "Luke Skywalker, here to rescue you", that reckless kid who wants to save the princess and kill the bad guy. Without Dagobah, Luke would have killed Vader as the enemy, instead of saving him.

I wouldn't define Yoda's comments on the Jedi as generic, they're often specific to the Jedi and the Force, and in direct opposition to the Sith/dark side. I wouldn't define them as platitudes when both Luke and the audience are hearing them for the first time. Fear and anger leading to the dark side? That didn't exist before ESB, no? Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things!? But, one might have thought otherwise after watching Luke in ANH. (I'm wondering if you saw the PT first)

I think it's pretty clear that at least Vader knows the Falcon is associated with Luke and his friends. Where the Falcon goes, Luke and/or his friends go, and Vader wants either Luke, or his friends so he can use them as bait.

Regardless of the stakes (of which I thought there were enough), I find the actual flight through the asteroids thrilling, and the trick with floating away with the garbage to be pretty clever by Solo. I think the music is wonderful throughout.

To each their own.

That's the reason for the stalemated chase and the waiting game, to give Han and Leia some relative quiet time alone.

The reason for the chase is the romance.

Sorry, but this is objectively false. It can be your subjective opinion, but objectively, Empire's climax is the "I am your father" scene.

Opinion noted, but from what I gather from my experience on these boards, the fandom generally feels the exact opposite.

 

I watched the movie today and I agree with you in part,tommy-lin, the beggining of the movie is quite slow. And I hate the ending of the movie, it seems we did not get enough... Anyway, I still loving the movie, but it is not my favorite of the OT.

 

I belive it is the most stressful of the saga, but that's both the charm/spirit of it and what makes it enjoyable for me. It's the intention. I very much love TESB

From the cold, biting beginnings on Hoth to the ethereal, almost debatable marsh of Dagobah, and to the surreal, dreamlike Bespin, TESB achieves a feeling of both being grounded in reality with the personal nature of the film, the views of each characters' minds on the outside, and being in a realm above normal, almost an unfitting mixture of tones that works perfectly in its favour

 

I disagree completely on most of these points.

First, the chase. There is a lot at stake. The son of Skywalker and the Rebellion in one. Both need to be found. Leia is important because she's Leia. She is the leader of the Rebellion. Sure the chase can go on longer, and doesn't need to happen, but why would the Empire stop chasing the leader? It doesn't make sense.

Plus, that's how Lord Vader plans to capture Luke. Vader needs to lure him in. How does he do that? By capturing his friends. Even the torture with Han was part of that. Lord Vader didn't ask him questions because it was a way to find Luke. Vader knows how the Force works and is exploiting every trick he can.

Second, the training montage is important. It may seem a little slow in the process, but pretty much everything Yoda does is intended to contribute towards Luke growing as a character. The acting crazy, the rocks, the Dark Side cave, they all have a meaning within them. I don't think it's supposed to be focussing on what Luke is, I think it's supposed to be focussing on what Luke needs to become. What he needs to learn. They can focus on Luke learning physical skills all they want, but they aren't the important thing. The important things are what Yoda is teaching Luke.

I prefer the chase scene to Endor, though Yavin IV is arguably the more iconic. Better looking models and puppets? Eh. Better music? Not IMO at all. The Rebel Fleet and the End Title, The Imperial March, Battle of Hoth, Han Solo and the Princess (I could go on). As for better lightsaber duel, completely depends on your opinion. I think the one on Bespin is brilliant. It's got tonnes of colour, atmosphere, and of course the famous showdown.

Empire has multiple climaxes, as well. Hoth is one. Capturing the heroes is another, smaller one. Then the Vader/Luke fight. There are also a lot of "wow" moments that really are intriguing and there is a lot of creativity in the scenes and such. The cinematography and the dialogue are both really solid, there's a good deal of character development, and there's a lot of cool stuff like ships and planets that are introduced or shown.

That's my 2 cents.

 

While I agree with both of you here, CT-867-5309 and tommy-lin...the romance - as good as it was - being the main reason for the whole chase and waiting game, to me, makes for somewhat shoddy writing. Could not Kasdan, Lucas, and co. not come up with a cogent in-universe justification/reason for the chase/waiting game? Don't get me wrong...I understand the cinematic reason for it, but I guess I'm asking for a more relevant in-story reason for why we the audience needed to see those events. (?)

 

Hey, you know, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

 

I…don't agree. I LOVE the character moments. The quieter pauses. That said, you're entitled to your opinion of course and, certainly, there are things about TESB that I don't 100% love.

I'd say that the "training montage" is about training the audience as much as it is Luke -- it basically gives us the foundation from which to understand what Luke is going to need to do and how he fits into the grander scheme. Luke can't really see beyond his immediate needs -- becoming a powerful warrior to aid the Rebellion -- and so we don't really get the payoff until he confronts Vader and understands what he needs to do.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here? Vader knows of the Millennium Falcon -- he's obsessed with it and sends out bounty hunters out for it precisely because he knows what she's worth, not just in terms of Leia but also to Luke -- who is Vader's real target here. Especially because the Falcon was the ship Luke fled on in ANH. The story of ESB is a very personal one -- the conflict is almost entirely centered on Vader's obsession with Luke rather than the broader Imperial vs Rebellion conflict. Why do you think Vader went after the Falcon rather than the Rebel transports? Or why Vader would stay and wait to confront Luke rather than to see to Princess Leia (who is higher up in the chain of command)? A large reason why Han and Leia being in danger isn't the central focus, I would argue, is that THEIR conflict isn't with Vader -- they're just the bait in his hands to capture Luke. Rather, the conflict is between Han and Leia themselves.

See, it's funny because I find the romance in ESB to be infinitely worse than AOTC's -- it's a butchered and terrible reading of Gone with the Wind as far as I'm concerned and has none of the commentary of the couple's dysfunction that GWTW had. But I've belabored that point before so I'll give in a rest.

I think, for me, ESB is an important film in the Star Wars universe because it introduced ambiguity to the Saga. And there was the knowledge, now, that our heroes could fail and were not infallible. It made them mortal and thus more relatable and human.

I think ROTJ has equal music but I prefer the lightsaber duel in TESB and love Luke equally in both films. I also never found TESB's effects lacking compared to ROTJ's.

I love AOTC so I never really find it boring (it's my second favorite of the Star Wars films) but I wouldn't say that TESB climaxes in the first 30 minutes. Is the best battle in the beginning? Yeah, but I don't really watch Star Wars FOR the battles -- the emotional climax happens at the end of the film as Luke's innocence and naivety are shattered. The very fact that it ends with a lack of resolution cements that. TESB is meant to up the stakes and it achieves that perfectly.

 

I thought TESB was slow in parts when I was much younger, but as I grew up I came to really appreciate the slower character moments and the impact they have. And the Hoth chase was amazing IMO. So yeah, I completely disagree with the majority of your points there pretty much.

 

this topic is lol.

 

They?

 

Have to strongly disagree with the OP. ESB is not only the best film in the SW Saga, but it's also one of the best films of all time, period.

Not going to go into the reasons why it's so great, since the movie is 35 years old this year & it's greatness has been discussed at length on this board and other & among both SW fans and movie fans throughout the years.

 

Well, it's my favorite film of all time, which at 46 and having seen hundreds of movies is no mean feat, so I'm going to have to disagree with the OP rather ardently on this. Beyond that, any rebuttal would just consist of my going "nuh-UHHH!" to each of the spurious opinions outlined in the OP. So I'll decline. But I will point out that there are many reasons ESB is considered the best film of the Saga by fans and critics alike, as poll after poll as shown. The OP is of course welcome to disagree, for all the reasons s/he stated, none of which I follow or understand, much less agree with.

 

Not everyone agrees with it. "Bounty hunters, we don't need their scum," for example.

So while I am not going into the "Empire is evil" argument, certainly Vader is the one doing the negotiating, and thus he should receive the blame there.

But eh.

 

Empire Strikes Back Is BORING
----------

I agree to an extent...it's boring in parts. It's still an important movie in the saga, but does it engage me like a lot of the others do? not a chance.

 

Vader doesn't really care what happens to Han after he turns him over to Boba Fett either. He's not actively endorsing the Hutts per se, but it's more like "I'm turning Han over to you to fulfill our agreement. What you do with him after that is up to you."

 

I would argue that the story for TESB isn't plotted in the 'traditional' manner that say, ANH is. For example, there is no 'time-lock' built-in to the story of TESB. The following film ROTJ , like the first film, does have a story time-lock.

 

I love all six movies but before I was about 15 or 16, I couldn't tolerate watching ESB much. I would watch it much less than the other two, with ROTJ being my favorite. It's a boring movie as a kid, I think. As an adult, I love it! But it just didn't work for me when I was younger.

Not to be mean to the OT, but if it's quality lightsaber battles you want to see, look elsewhere. I love Star Wars more than anything but the lightsaber "duels" in the OT are terrible compared to even a decent fighting scene in a cheesy 1970s Hong Kong action film. They are geriatric. In ANH, it's beyond pathetic. It ONLY has ANY significance whatsoever because of the significance the prequels gave to it. Without the prequels, it sucks even more than it already sucks. It's two old men barely fighting, with one giving up. Yay! Not a fight. In ESB, it's much improved between Luke and Vader, and overall fun to watch and a great cinematic scene. It's just greater for its significance than it is for its actual choreography, which is solid but unremarkable. In ROTJ we finally get an epic lightsaber duel that actually resembles something impressive. Still, none of that compares to even the weakest prequel lightsaber duel. It's just not a strength of the OT.

 

While I like the ROTJ lightsaber duel the best of all...I will say this: I prefer the "geriatric" lightsaber duel of SW/ANH any day over those of the PT, with their pointless saber twirling/choreographed dance moves.....not to mention duel outcomes based solely on the writer/the-plot-demands-it concerns rather than any organic cause-and-effect.

 

The OT duels are great because of the character interaction and drama of the conflict more than the actual choreography most of the time. The prequel duels are better from a choreography standpoint, and are far more stylized (which reflects the era of the Jedi at their peak) but often lack that emotional punch the OT ones have besides the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel. I enjoy them all really.

 

I guess there are a lot of people who feel this way. I'm just not one of them. I feel there is a good deal of story and emotion behind the duels in the PT, as well. Just a lot less dialogue, for which I am utterly grateful.


I feel that just about every STAR WARS movie that has been released so far, has its flaws. "The Empire Strikes Back" is no exception. But if there are people out there who dislike it, who am I to try to change their minds? Like all of us, they are entitled to their opinions.

 

Hm, interesting!