Empire vs. Rebellion (ver 2.1) Back where it belongs!!!

Another consarned multipost!

[This message has been edited by CaptainArdiff (edited 01-08-2000).]

 

GMJ you are a lifesaver! I was unable to come here yesterday and when I began reading the posts from 2 days ago, I almost became sick. It amazed me that most of the original posters in here have left because the debate was going nowhere. It was about to turn into a thread full of posts by ones who did not know that we have already made the same arguments they have. But hopefully this change of topic will call the old ones back.

As for the topic change, I honestly do not think the NR would have been created had it not been for the bias writers. I believe the Rebellion could have beaten both Death Stars, but as for everything else, I don't think it would have happened. The Imp leaders were too smart to make as many foolish mistakes as they did. Thrawn, for one, would not have been defeated so quickly. He was too intelligent and his men under him were not as dumb as they were made out to be. You don't make it to that high a rank in the Empire and then be as reckless as they were. It just doesn't happen. Maybe it would to one or two power hungry officers that let that get in the way, but not every single one.

jedigirl

 

*Sigh . . . Scratches chin*.

You know you Imperials just aren't going to win.

Slavery. Okay I am talking about the Imperials going down to Kashyyyk (or Ryloth, or asny number of planets), and raiding the planet for Wookiee slaves to take back, and build their Imperial war mahcines. With these slaves, you whip them, torture them, kill them. You do whatever you feel like because you don't think there is a force strong enough to fight back against you.

Now, what is wrong with slavery you may ask? Or what is wrong with slaughtering millions of innocents? Waht is wrong with anything that strikes your pyschopathic minds to commit whimsical acts of destruction?

Well, it's morals. Beliefs which state that its just not cool to kill other beings. Not cool to think that they are lesser then what you are, and enslave them. Just having respect for beings for who they are, for being alive.

What about dissolving the voice of the people? You guys didn't come up with another one for us. So what else were we going to do? Let you boss us around? No. We kicked your arse. You guys lost. You're done for. Finished. Regardless of whether or not I manage to convince you Imperials of realizing what you have done is wrong, or preventing some NR citizen from turning traitor, I can sleep well in knowing that you guys lost . . . everything. Your precious Emperor, you Dark Lord of the Sith, your big pretty ships, all of it.

I am going to go to bed now, and I will sleep soundly knowing that the NR rules with a mind of freedom and justice, and not one of fear and tyranny.

You have no chance of coming back to rule as you once did. Give it a rest. Join the winning team.

Join the New Republic.

 

As I was climbing into bed last night, I had such a revelation that was well . . . profound. The answer to end this destructive conflict between us. It is so simple, it's no wonder I hadn't thought of it before. I did in fact touch upon this earlier, but I failed to realize how significant it actually was.

Numbers. Numbers. Numbers.

Who does the Empire serve? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. You serve the Emperor. You are his humbled servant, blah, blah, blah. Right, okay, the NR supporters get that. But who else do you serve? Do you at all serve the citizens of the Empire? If that's true, then how can that be accomplished when a vast majority--a titanic majority is of non-human descent, and you all have a xenophobic attitude?

There are 4.5 million sentient species (catologued, with others in the Unknown Regions, and Wild Space obviously). ONE. I repeat ONE is human. ONE. That leaves 4,999,999 species which the Empire supposedly 'serves' which are not human. Numbers says it all. The non-humans did not want you Imperials in charge, and that was, aside from one species, the make-up of your citizens. The non-humans did not want the Empire in charge, there was no other way for the citizens to change the type of government we had, so we rebelled. We didn't want you in charge, you wouldn't listen. We fought back.

You continiously ignore my statement which says that a government that is not for the people, by the people, is not the people. Which means in simple terms that since the average citizen had no part in the government you were not the ones we wanted in charge.

Were any of the Moffs, or Sector governors elected officials? Nope. Then how are the people of whatever moon, planet, asteriod, system, or sector supposed to be heard? You wouldn't listen so we rebelled.

Jedigirl . . . It befuddles me as to how a member of the Jedi faith can be a member of that monstrosity you call the Empire. The Emperor and Darth Vader were responsible for the death of nearly 10,000 Jedi Knights, and Masters. Explain that. The only reason I can think of is if you're a Dark Jedi.

Other miscellenous reasons the Empire sucks

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>You have hideous names for your ISD's. Oh, you never bothered to explain that to me either.

According to many supporters of the Empire here, the following individuials were traitors. Grand Moff Tarkin, Ysanne Isard, Darth Vader, and Admiral Daala. Well, if these are your top advisors, and all they can do is betray you well, what does that say abou Imperial politics? See, a really good way to tell if a group of people is evil, is to watch their command structure. If people in a group are constantly trying to usurp each other's power, no one is happy with who is in charge because "I can do a better job' well they're evil. The NR is happy with who is in charge. There aren't ever any assassin attempts on our top officials by other top officials. In the Empire, always happenening. This is because evil people cannot get along together.

The Ghorman Massacre

You lied to the Noghri. It just isn't cool to lie to an entire world, just because you want to 'tap them a resource'.

You couldn't withstand a Civil War. The Empire wasn't strong enough to survive. We were strnger, we won.

You harvest slaves</UL>

Oh, and even if none of this manages to convince any of you that the Imperial way is in fact evil. I can sleep soundly knowing that Rogue Squadron kicked the 181st Squadron's arse out of the sky.

The we destroyed two, count em TWO Death Star's. We killed your precious, master Emperor Palpatine THREE--I'll sat it again in case anyoine missed it--THREE times.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter who wins here the battle here, because the New Republic won the war. The Empire, and it's glory days are forever over. No more.

 

Santee: Yes, of course it's just my opinion. I never denied that, did I? When it comes down to the afore-mentioned hormones, I react to sharp looks first, to functionality later .

Captain Ardiff: Aye, I own a Scots Guard coat. You may rise.
You may also check out this link if you want to see me and my coat in action:

http://www.homestead.com/webtechthingy/files/nicpirat.jpghomestead.com/webtechthingy/files/nicpirat.jpg


...Milord, indeed

 

YOWZERS!!!

Nice one there Ma'am! That is definitely a nice Blouse ye be wearin.

But now I see where ye be comin from.

ooff...

hmm....
What was I thinking that looks cannot and will not top functionality. But enough about that. I will talk later on other subjects.

steppin to the side til later today.

 

I don't know where the count is, but I say Rebellion all the way!

 

Does this include genocide on your own people? I can use examples other then Alderaan, and Camaas.
Camaas was obliterated before the emergence of the Empire. Palpatine may have a hand in it, though the procedures and purpose behind remains obscure, I believe. Alderaan, was considered a rebel hot-bed. U.S. exercises operations like this frequently. Locate a terrorist band's camp, pop it.

I have a comment on the Yevetha. They have a tremendous disgust for foreign species. This desire of superiority would goad them into massive territorial expansions. The Empire enslaved them, restrained them from doing so. This benefited the Empire and neutral factions.

I believe the discussion here is regarding Empire's degree of evil. Go light on the term, Silencer-7. With distinct perspectives, any country government can be viewed as evil.

Some JC members have suggested that the classic trilogy were a propaganda created by the rebels. And there is some ring of truth to it.

[This message has been edited by SSJ2 Gohan (edited 01-07-2000).]

 

If the Empire makes a comeback, will they still be called the Empire? Ya know, they are much smaller than the New Republic. Wouldn't that mean the empire would be the Rebellion, since they would be rebelling against the NR?

 

Santee: Finally, someone who understands me...

 

Ardiff, while the [ugh]French[/ugh] did wear those awful white uniforms, it was not something to be proud of. They were rather obvious when they fought in the woods. But when they defeated the Brits in the american part of the French and Indian war(who was killed there, I have forgotten that first brit excursion's leader), they did a pretty good job of using uniforms that blended into the woodwork. Totally unlike the Stormtroopers, who enjoyed tramping in the woods in those bright white uniforms. Rather an interesting aside there. But that is another point.

Still I have not seen anything on the leadership issue brought forward by JJ. And that is a subject change away from the normal points brought forward. When will it be answered? I don't remember it in the old EvsR thread and it definitely has not been answered in this thread.

 

I hate double or even triple posts. Even worse when the browser times out before getting back to the thread.

[This message has been edited by Santee Ordrin (edited 01-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Santee Ordrin (edited 01-07-2000).]

 

Ardiff, while the [ugh]French[/ugh] did wear those awful white uniforms, it was not something to be proud of. They were rather obvious when they fought in the woods. But when they defeated the Brits in the american part of the French and Indian war(who was killed there, I have forgotten that first brit excursion's leader), they did a pretty good job of using uniforms that blended into the woodwork. Totally unlike the Stormtroopers, who enjoyed tramping in the woods in those bright white uniforms. Rather an interesting aside there. But that is another point.

Still I have not seen anything on the leadership issue brought forward by JJ. And that is a subject change away from the normal points brought forward. When will it be answered? I don't remember it in the old EvsR thread and it definitely has not been answered in this thread.

 

Ardiff, while the [ugh]French[/ugh] did wear those awful white uniforms, it was not something to be proud of. They were rather obvious when they fought in the woods. But when they defeated the Brits in the american part of the French and Indian war(who was killed there, I have forgotten that first brit excursion's leader), they did a pretty good job of using uniforms that blended into the woodwork. Totally unlike the Stormtroopers, who enjoyed tramping in the woods in those bright white uniforms. Rather an interesting aside there. But that is another point.

Still I have not seen anything on the leadership issue brought forward by JJ. And that is a subject change away from the normal points brought forward. When will it be answered? I don't remember it in the old EvsR thread and it definitely has not been answered in this thread.

 

Silencer-7, have you not read my other posts? Did you not comprehend what I wrote? Do you not read Basic? If you don't I might understand, but if you do, then you have no excuse.
As I have stated (over and over and over again) the only Empire I believe is right is the New Empire. I do not agree with the one led by Palpatine and Darth Vader. That was chaotic and ubsurd. There is no way that I could even think of agreeing with a power that acted the way they did.
But I do believe in governments being able to change if the right person is in power. I believe Pellaeon is this change. It is not the Empire it was under Palpatine. The NR is not the Rebellion any longer. It is screwed up and is going to be replaced very soon.
Once again (and hopefully for the last time), I am not a sith. I do not want to be a sith. I will never be a sith. My allegiance is to the Force first, and always.

jedigirl
is getting very aggravated with having to repeat herself numerous amounts of times for those who have either not read past posts, or simply cannot understand simple reading.

 

Silencer-7, have you not read my other posts? Did you not comprehend what I wrote? Do you not read Basic? If you don't I might understand, but if you do, then you have no excuse.
As I have stated (over and over and over again) the only Empire I believe is right is the New Empire. I do not agree with the one led by Palpatine and Darth Vader. That was chaotic and ubsurd. There is no way that I could even think of agreeing with a power that acted the way they did.
But I do believe in governments being able to change if the right person is in power. I believe Pellaeon is this change. It is not the Empire it was under Palpatine. The NR is not the Rebellion any longer. It is screwed up and is going to be replaced very soon.
Once again (and hopefully for the last time), I am not a sith. I do not want to be a sith. I will never be a sith. My allegiance is to the Force first, and always.

jedigirl
is getting very aggravated with having to repeat herself numerous amounts of times for those who have either not read past posts, or simply cannot understand simple reading.

 

.

[This message has been edited by jedigirl (edited 01-07-2000).]

 

.

[This message has been edited by jedigirl (edited 01-08-2000).]

 

.

[This message has been edited by jedigirl (edited 01-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jedigirl (edited 01-08-2000).]

 

do you guys want me to archive this when it hits 500 or so? (so it's not lost for a second time)

 

Okay, I've been a long time watcher...but now I'm going to voice a TOUCH of my views. The Empire is better.....now with that being said I shall play the Johnny Cochrine side of things. It is time for the chewbacca defense....

Until next post...(which I will accually post...just now its late and I'm tired..just stated my disposition on this subject.) GAT Signing out

 

Jedigirl, my apologies as to making you repeat yourself.

As I have stated (over and over and over again) the only Empire I believe is right is the New Empire.

This New Empire you speak of is the one led by Pelleaon (just making sure)?

What exactly do you base this theory on? Would you tell me what their politics are? Are they xenophobic? Do they still own slaves? That sort of thing. We have only seen two books involving this New Empire. What exactly is so different between the Empire led by Palpatine, and the one led by Pelleaon?

Pelleaon is, what 85 now? Who will take charge when Pelleaon dies? He is human after all. What if someone takes charge and you do not agree with his politics? What if they have visions of attacking the NR, and bringing back the Empire that was Palpatines?

I do not agree with the one led by Palpatine and Darth Vader. That was chaotic and ubsurd. There is no way that I could even think of agreeing with a power that acted the way they did.

Yes, Jedigirl, I am glad you think that. However, the Empire led by Palpatine was in rule for 22 years. Some people have only known this Empire. They don't know that this New Empire exists. They don't know they have changed their ways.

But I do believe in governments being able to change if the right person is in power. I believe Pellaeon is this change.

What exactly has Pelleaon changed about the Empire? You continue to refer to change but not what has changed.

The NR is not the Rebellion any longer.

Yes, the New Republic is the legitimate government in charge. This is because the old Empire was weak, and failing in it's attempt to rule. If a government cannot withstand internal conflict, then it does not deserve to stand.

It (New Republic) is screwed up and is going to be replaced very soon.

What about the NR is screwed up (in detail, please)? What government is going to replace it very soon?

 

Again I respond (hopefully without numerous multiposts):

"Slavery. Okay I am talking about the Imperials going down to Kashyyyk (or Ryloth, or asny number of planets), and raiding the planet for Wookiee slaves to take back, and build their Imperial war mahcines. With these slaves, you whip them, torture them, kill them. You do whatever you feel like because you don't think there is a force strong enough to fight back against you."

Slavery for getting work done is NOT efficient. It is not represented - not even in &lt;shudder&gt; The Crystal Star as being so widespread that it's a major issue. It was small scale; it was probably nasty when it involved making intelligent people do dull things - but no more so than present day wage slavery. To slaughter slaves en masse is not a likely Imp tactic - those in Maw Installation had been around for years - and were maltreated only because their keeper was a psychopathic speciesist.

"Now, what is wrong with slavery you may ask? Or what is wrong with slaughtering millions of innocents? Waht is wrong with anything that strikes your pyschopathic minds to commit whimsical acts of destruction?
Well, it's morals. Beliefs which state that its just not cool to kill other beings. Not cool to think that they are lesser then what you are, and enslave them. Just having respect for beings for who they are, for being alive."

I don't know your personal opinions, so this argument could fall flat on its face...but what about American intervention in the European theatre in WWI and WWII? Two words - carpet bombing = "whimsical destruction". By the time you fellows were here that was utterly unneccessary. Not cool to kill others? True, but sometimes "the greater good" demands it. Kill the Nazi war criminals or set them up as the leaders of Germany again? Hmmm. People as being less worthy than me? There are such people, there are, more significantly, people of infinitely greater worth than me. Who are you to declare that everyone is equal/ This is blatantly false; at the least we have different heights In all seriousness, though, we are different, that is what makes us special - not all the same - even clones aren't all the same - those Baron Fel guys. I respect everybody - even nutters like Hitler - and believe me, I do not like the guy, he was a shamelessly evil idealist - but I also know that we are human, hence we are imperfect. I guess the alien species in EU, those that have our exact characteristics, are the same

"What about dissolving the voice of the people? You guys didn't come up with another one for us. So what else were we going to do? Let you boss us around?"

The voice of the people is often wrong. The people convicted Socrates and had him murdered. The people elected the Nazis to power because of economics! The people are, perhaps, even more foolish than their leaders because they don't have to have expertise. They can support wars without knowing why, believe the lies of politicians who couldn't care less for the well-being of the people. People are people are fools are us. It's how it is.

"No. We kicked your arse. You guys lost. You're done for. Finished. Regardless of whether or not I manage to convince you Imperials of realizing what you have done is wrong, or preventing some NR citizen from turning traitor, I can sleep well in knowing that you guys lost . . . everything. Your precious Emperor, you Dark Lord of the Sith, your big pretty ships, all of it.
I am going to go to bed now, and I will sleep soundly knowing that the NR rules with a mind of freedom and justice, and not one of fear and tyranny."

Yes, we were defeated. The old authors don't want the evil guys to win thing again, consult another 80 odd posts around here. the tyranny thing, however, I won't let rest. Who rules the Alliance? The Skywalker family. Luke heads the Jedi, Leia the government. Nobody else will ever remove their stranglehold. Where is the voice of the people that lets the people decide? It is not here as long as the Skywalker dynasty rules.

"You have no chance of coming back to rule a

 

*Sigh*

[This message has been edited by Sgt Crowfield (edited 01-09-2000).]

 

Captain Ardiff: Thanks .
Sorry to disappoint you - it's a modern day uniform, late 1980's... the stuff the Scots Guard are still wearing today and not an antiquity.