Empire vs. Rebellion (ver 2.1) Back where it belongs!!!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grand Moff Jerjerrod, Nov 25, 1999.

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  1. Ganner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2000
    star 4
    EXTREMELY well said, Matthew Trias! I completely agree.

    Hey Mitt,

    I noticed you carefully avoided MT's question.

    Would you care to answer up?

  2. Mitt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 1999
    star 6
    Sheesh it wasn't like the questions he asked weren't answered already in this thread and the thread before it...I mean we've already gone over the issue of aliens a dozen and two times, Thrawn is the simple answer. I don't know were the issue of slavery has come up but that didn't exist in the Empire.
    The dream of the Empire, the real dream and not the one created by the propganda agents of the rebellion was to bring about peace and order to the galaxy. When I was much younger I use to dream of Thrawn coming to Earth and the world joining the Empire. I believe there is still a part of me that clings to that dream.

  3. howlrunner22 Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 1998
    star 5
    I would love to stay and fight for the Empire as I have done in the past, but there's just too much reading I haven't done.....
  4. Ganner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2000
    star 4
    There was no slavery in the Empire?!!!

    AH! I see now why you support the empire. TO some degree you're being as naive as Qui Xux.

    Remember the fact that there were wookie slaves working on the death star projects?

    Remember that Admiral Ackbar was Tarkin's personal slave?

    Why is slavery so hard to imagine, with the Empire being so descriminatory against aliens?
  5. Mitt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 1999
    star 6
    No, no, no!!!! Howl!!! You can't leave me here on my own! You're the best at this!!

    I had forgotten about Tarkin having a slave, but again we all agree that Tarkin is insane. I'm not sure about the Wookies slaves. Really given Anakin's background do you think their would be slavery? More rebellion propaganda, if you asked me.
  6. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    ======
    On Xenophobia
    ======

    The Emperor Palpatine I has not once displayed the slightest hint of xenophobia; indeed, there are counterexamples to this alleged bias:

    1. Darth Sidious made ample use of the Neimoidians and their Trade Federation;
    2. Darth Sidious relied heavily on the services of his Zabrak apprentice, Darth Maul;
    3. Emperor Palpatine promoted the Chiss soldier Mitth?raw?nuruodo to Grand Admiral; and
    4. the Emperor Reborn trained and retained the services of non-human dark side Adepts.

    Thus, one finds that there are two canonical counterexamples and one typically held-high-in-esteem counterexample. This outweighs bitter reflections by bureaucratic peons like Prefect Mosh Barris and highly biased memories from an insurgent leader such as Leia Organa Solo.

    According to the prologue to A NEW HOPE, the Emperor Palpatine was not involved in the operations of the Empire. He was a recluse, seen only by those that needed to see him. The government---and by extension, the military and its policies---were in the hands of oligarchs and plutocrats.

    * If * there was xenophobia within the Empire, the Emperor was not the source of it.

    The source of the xenophobia was not the Emperor, but the oligarchs and plutocrats that ran the government and its military.

    For example:

    1. Grand Vizier Sate Pestage, who ran the daily operations of the Empire and was the most powerful of the oligarchs, displayed mild xenophobia when he balked about being forced to share his getaway shuttle with the corpse of a Mon Calamari.

    2. Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin, one of the most powerful people in the Empire, was a blatant sexist, misogynist, and xenophobe. His exalted position enabled him to flaunt his bias; his authority was such that even Lord Vader was forced to obey him. It was Wilhuff Tarkin that kept Ackbar as a slave; it was Wilhuff Tarkin that used Wookiee slave labour in the Maw and on Despayre.

    3. Ysanne Isard, the Director of Imperial Intelligence and one of few people with unlimited access to the Emperor, was herself a xenophobe that held a majority of non-humans in contempt.

    Thus, one finds that it was the powerful and the élite---in effect, the most prominent---that were associated with xenophobia; the Alliance, it its typical duplicitous fashion, ?innocently? extended those circles to include the entire bureaucracy of the Empire, and its entire military.

    It is of interest to note that of the three mentioned, Wilhuff Tarkin is the only one who actively degraded and terrorized non-humans. It is of further interest to note that Wilhuff Tarkin was the product of a well-established, well-respected family from the * Republic *.

    Note that Queen Amidala herself was originally to have attempted to have kept Jar Jar Binks from having boarded her ship.

    Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, vaunted Jedi and protector of justice, was a xenophobe---he referred to Jar Jar as a ?pathetic lifeform.? Hardly the sort of language to be expected from an enlightened enforcer of the law.

    Note that even under Grand Admiral Thrawn, the Empire did not include many non-humans in its military. Surely there must have been a reason for this---if there were actual policies precluding non-humans from entering and serving in the military, surely Grand Admiral Thrawn would have nullified them.

    So it must be, therefore, that non-humans simply do not * want * to serve in the Imperial military.

    Further notes of interest:

    1. In THE PHANTOM MENACE, not a single non-human is seen in the Republic military. The Senate Guards are exclusively human, as are the pilots of the RADIANT VII.

    2. There are no known non-human crewmembers aboard the RIM MERCHANT EINEM, the ADMIRAL KORVIN, or any other Republic military forces shown in ROGUE PLANET, either.

    3. In A NEW HOPE and THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, the only non-human seen in the Alliance military is Chewbacca, an informal member.

    4. In RETURN OF THE JEDI, the bridge crew of the HOME ONE is exclusively Mon Calamari. How curious! This is the same situation as seen aboard the br
  7. Art_Core Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2000
    star 5
    In regards to number 4, I believe that only Mon Calamari are seen on the bridge of Home One is because the controls of a Mon cal ship are specially designed for the Mon Calamari species. They see in a different spectrum than humans so it would be difficult for humans to see the controls, and also requires specific movements by Mon Calamari that humans may or may not be able to learn.
  8. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    Ah, yes, the oft-repeated rationalisation.

    Perhaps Imperial warships, in light of the overwhelming majority that humans compose of the galaxy's sapient biomass, are designed specifically for human physiology?

    It is not a stretch to believe so.

    After all, Kuat Drive Yards is a human-owned company, and sells to a human-dominated industry:

    The Republic military was dominantly human.

    The Imperial military was dominantly human.

    The Alliance & New Republic militaries were---and are---dominantly human.

    Thus, Kuat would be best suited to tailor its products to humans, just as the Mon Calamari allegedly tailor theirs to Mon Calamari.
  9. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    We haven't seen much of the Republic military so saying that since all the military we have seen SO FAR is human,and that means aliens don't want to join,is pre mature.

    And there doesn't have to be a stated policy keeping aliens out of the military.All it would take is the prejudice of the officers in the academy.And all it would take to get an officer to overcome his prejudices is an order from Palpatine or a high ranking Imperial official.That's probaly how most aliens in the Empire joined.

    And the Emperor didn't believe in his own propaganda.Even Baron Fel saw the hypocrisy of it all.The Emperor certainly did promote High Human society,as a way of uniting a race and making them into a fine weapon.But other then that he broke it when he saw fit.

    As for slaving in the Empire..........

    Explain to what happened to the Wookie race?

    Or what the Empire tried to do to the Calamarians?

    What about Gamandar?

    What about Imperial "Industrialized worlds" were entire generations are born into slavery,and live and die as slaves?Thier only purpose in life to be slaves.

    Slavery was abundant in the Empire,and if the Emperor did not start it,he certainly did nothing to stop it.

    I know there is a sentiment around here that the Empire represented order.How so?

    The only order Palpatine came up was HIS.He believed that it was the voices of the multitude beings in the senate that had caused disorder.He believed that only one man was fit to rule the Galaxy and lead it's people to glory.Only one man had the will,and with this man's one voice it would all go smoothly.BAH!

    What a dellusional overconfident fool.

    The result of the Empire's order?

    Hatred toward the Empire.Spiteful feelings that festered and grew like a cancer.

    The result?

    THE REBELLION OF COURSE!

    If the Empire had treated it's subjects fairly and justly there would be no rebellion.The Rebellion was not just a force that popped up for no reason.

    And who could blame the people of the Galaxy for rebelling?

    Look at how the Empire kept it's order!It's ironic that in it's pathetic attempts to keep order the Empire only caused more disorder!

    1.They released a gentically engineered virus on one planet killing millions.For what?To get a few Rebels?(this was the virus that Madine refused to release but was later released without his cooperation anyway)

    2.Destroyed Alderaan killing millions probaly billionsof people,just to eliminate a few who had conspired with Rebels or who had Rebel leanings.
    AND NO this was not just Tarkin's fault.Vader was emissary of the Emperor and kept watch of Tarkin.The Emperor knew of Tarkin's plans yet never told Vader to stop him.

    3.The destruction of Janara III that resulted in the deaths of thousands.Why?To destroy a handful of Force sensitive children.The death of thousands just to destroy a handful of people.REAL sensible.

    4.The bombing of the planet Kabal just because it was neutral.

    5.The complete genocide of the Telfreyans and the decimation of Telfrey's surface.Granted they rebelled.......but genocide?

    6.The planned assault on the city of Kulthis on Belderone.It was thwarted but not before much damage was caused to the city.Again just to root out a few Rebels.

    And the list can go on and on.

    If all that is the Empire's way of typically dealing with problems then is it any reason the Rebellion started?

    Simply put Palpatine,harmony with no free will is not harmony at all.

    You can bully other people all you like,but eventually they're going to get mad and stand up to you.It is the Empire's bungling that led to the Rebellion.

    **********************

  10. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Long live the Empire. Ah, sovereign, may you live for ever.
  11. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    ---quote-------
    We haven't seen much of the Republic military so saying that since all the military we have seen SO FAR is human, and that means aliens don't want to join, is premature.
    ----------------

    Throughout TALES OF THE JEDI, THE PHANTOM MENACE, and ROGUE PLANET, we don?t recall seeing a single non-human member of the Republic military. Not a single one.

    ---quote-------
    And there doesn't have to be a stated policy keeping aliens out of the military. All it would take is the prejudice of the officers in the academy. And all it would take to get an officer to overcome his prejudices is an order from Palpatine or a high ranking Imperial official. That's probably how most aliens in the Empire joined.
    ----------------

    So why is it, then, that Grand Admiral Thrawn is the only non-human known to be in the Imperial military during his imperium?

    ---quote-------
    And the Emperor didn't believe in his own propaganda. Even Baron Fel saw the hypocrisy of it all. The Emperor certainly did promote High Human society, as a way of uniting a race and making them into a fine weapon. But other then that he broke it when he saw fit.
    ----------------

    The Emperor had nothing to do with propaganda. According to the canonical novelisation of A NEW HOPE, the Emperor was a recluse. It was not he that ruled the Empire; it was the oligarchs and plutocrats that he appointed. Of course, the Emperor held imperium; he simply rarely exercised it.

    Because this is in the novelisation, this takes precedence over everything else save the movies themselves.

    Pollux Hax was responsible for the propaganda of the Empire. Minister Hax was one of the wealthy, the élite oligarchs that actually ran the government. It was he that would be responsible for the ?High Human? mentality, and it is he that should be held responsible for that travesty in the face of intelligent thought.

    Lord Fel, therefore, did not perceive a discontinuity with the Emperor; he perceived the error of Minister Hax?s xenophobic vision.

    Simply put, Minister Hax wanted the High Human culture to be the status quo of the Empire. The Emperor didn?t care what Minister Hax thought; he knew talent when he saw talent, and in Mitth?raw?nuruodo, the Emperor saw talent.

    Thus, the Emperor showed that he was not a xenophobe. He did not care that Mitth?raw?nuruodo was a non-human; his only concern was that Mitth?raw?nuruodo was a military genius, and could serve the Empire.

    ---quote-------
    Explain to what happened to the Wookie race?
    ----------------

    People like the Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin were responsible for the enslavement of the Wookiee race. The Grand Moff Tarkin appears to have a particular dislike for Wookiees; he used Wookiee labour to build the Maw Installation, and the Death Star over Despayre.

    Furthermore, the Wookiees were known for their technical expertise (as demonstrated by Chewbacca); they were useful to the Grand Moff Tarkin?s efforts, serving a double-purpose: They made the Grand Moff alleviate his apparent inferiority complex, and provided needed services.

    ---quote-------
    Or what the Empire tried to do to the Calamarians?
    ----------------

    Given that the Moff Tarkin kept Ackbar as a slave, he appears to have been connected with the enslavement of the Mon Calamari. It is fitting; the Mon Calamari were non-human (thereby incurring the Moff?s enmity) and technically skilled (thereby making themselves targets in the eyes of the Moff).

    ---quote-------
    What about Imperial "Industrialized worlds" were entire generations are born into slavery, and live and die as slaves? Their only purpose in life to be slaves.
    ----------------

    What about Anakin Skywalker?

    Tatooine actually * was * a member of the Republic, and yet young Anakin and his mother were both slaves.

    ---quote-------
    Slavery was abundant in the Empire, and if the Emperor did not start it, he certainly did nothing to stop it.
    ----------------

    Actually, if the folks at Time Tales are accurate in their placement of the event, the * Senate * must be
  12. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    First,real worlds event should be kept out of a fictional universe IMO.While in REAL EARTH history the Roman Empire had a good effect on Europe in SW it's clear that no one has a posititive opinion of the Galactic Empire in the GFFA.

    Secondly Thrawn was let into Imperial service at the Emperor's orders keeping any Imperial prejudice from denying THrawn,and only because Thrawn had exceptional abilities.It's not like every high Imperial official or the Emperor himself,would give their recomendation for any run of the mill normal alien.That's probaly why no other aliens are Imperial service.

    As for Palpatine not knowing about Alderaan I'll concede I was wrong.

    Anyway.......

    Okay let's say Palps did not promote many of the extreme actions I mentioned above.Then he is simply a person that does not care.As long as the money is flowing into his pockets and he sits relatively protected in his palace,he is content to allow his underlings to do as they please.He's just as guilty as the people committing these crimes.

    But the purpose of this topic was not to attack the Empereror but the Empire and it's policies.And the policies of Palp's underlings eventually became the policies of the Empire.

    Slavery
    Blackmail
    Rule through fear
    Genocide and all those other good things eh?

    AS for "unforunate" civilian casualties in war......where do we stop??!!

    Total destrucion of:

    5 planets?

    10 planets?

    20?

    500?

    1,000?

    It would still all be a drop in the perverbial bucket in a Galaxy of over a million habitible planets wouldn't it?

    But it's all in the name of order so that makes it okay,doesn't it?

    What's a few billion lives in a Galaxy of trillions eh?

    But let's just forget about all that for awhile.

    Let's just get to who' more "orderly."

    Neither one.

    Not the NR and certainly not the Empire.

    The NR is in the MORAL right IMO but the fact that it's a democracy,means it can be slow and awkward in making decisions and policy.

    The Empire was faster admittedly in these areas,and more efficient,but their often brash and harsh way in dealing with problems made them hated and despised,which led to rebellion against them.

    So in the end neither one is more efective then the other.

    ***************8

    Oh Tear's of Palpatine I think that after the NR destroyeds Hegemony forces,they probaly allowed the formerly occupied worlds to choose for themselves whether they wanted to be a part of the NR or independant.
    ************************
    Now back to Palpatine.You make it sound as he started the Galacatic Empire for noble reasons.IMO it was just the final act in a 2,000 year old vendetta.A selfish petty act.he Emperor had no grand plan to restore the Galaxy to slendor for the sake of the people.He could care less about the people.As the Episode I visual dictionary states,he was merely carrying out the final phase of his orders 2,000 year old plan to conquer the Galaxy.He had no desire to help the people.

    IMO it cannot be denied that the Empire was evil incarnate during the years before Pellaeon.

    ******************

    As always a pleasure to enter a debate with Tear's of Palpatine.One of the best on this forum in this field.

    So what say you Tears of Palatine?Once more unto the breach dear friend?;)
  13. Ganner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2000
    star 4
    Well said, Matthew Trias!
  14. warlord zarac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 1999
    I thought this thread died way back in February !!
    While, I'm not reading all the way through. Where are we, rebels still moaning about slavery, Alderaan and Camass ?

    hi to Mitt / Howlrunner / GMJ / and any others from the old imperial mailing list. Nice to see you still frequent these parts.
  15. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    Not too long ago, we were listening to a lecture from Mrs. Williams, our Honors English III/AP US History teacher.

    Her lecture was of interest because of how it applies to this topic.

    Basically, what she said was this:

    ?History does not tell itself. People tell other people history, and the person telling usually has an opinion on it. As a result, when you read a history, it is important to note that there will always be a bias present. As honors students, I expect you to be able to recognize that bias, and be able to understand how it affects the presentation of the facts.?

    This is very important whenever one examines anything that narrates things.

    STAR WARS is set ?a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.?

    It is, in essence, a fictitious historical narrative.

    Keep this in mind, ja?

    =================
    Empecemos para hablar
    =================

    ---quote---------
    First, real world events should be kept out of a fictional universe IMO. While in REAL EARTH history the Roman Empire had a good effect on Europe in SW it?s clear that no one has a positive opinion of the Galactic Empire in the GFFA.
    -----------------

    Why should real world events not be compared to the events of STAR WARS? It is very much a mark in the favor of Mr. Lucas? creation that it can be viably compared to the epic occurrences of terrestrial history. One should note the various entities of STAR TREK do not hold up well when analyzed and compared to history.

    Yes, the Roman Empire had a good effect on Europe. And its collapse had a terrible affect on Europe, as it degenerated into what can rightly be called the Dark Ages. Similarly, the violent in-fighting and conflicts that followed the death of the Emperor can be called a dark era in galactic history.

    And it is clearly not true that no one holds a positive opinion of the Empire---for example, Admiral Teren Rogriss, an intelligent and honorable man, clearly believed the Empire to be a superior government to the New Republic. Lord Fel thought likewise. And there are others---such as Admiral Gilad Pellaeon.

    ---quote---------
    Secondly Thrawn was let into Imperial service at the Emperor?s orders keeping any Imperial prejudice from denying Thrawn, and only because Thrawn had exceptional abilities. It's not like every high Imperial official or the Emperor himself, would give their recommendation for any run of the mill normal alien. That's probably why no other aliens are Imperial service.
    -----------------

    So then you believe that Grand Admiral Thrawn was a xenophobe, too? During his imperium, he was the only known non-human in Imperial service. THE ESSENTIAL CHRONOLOGY indicates that non-humans first began making an appreciable presence in the Imperial war machine during the usurpation of Lord Jax.

    And of course the Emperor would not advocate a non-human of pedestrian abilities! The Emperor would not advocate * anyone * that was not exceptionally good at something that was useful!

    Even the Grand Moff Tarkin held his position not because he was human, but because he was a talented administrator. He was useful. Had the Grand Moff * not * been useful to the Emperor, he would not have held a position of such prestige and authority.

    ---quote---------
    Okay let?s say Palps did not promote many of the extreme actions I mentioned above. Then he is simply a person that does not care. As long as the money is flowing into his pockets and he sits relatively protected in his palace, he is content to allow his underlings to do as they please. He's just as guilty as the people committing these crimes.
    -----------------

    By that rationale, Qui-Gon Jinn and Queen Amidala are as culpable for the slavery on Tatooine as were Jabba the Hutt and Watto.

    After all, they were on Tatooine. Qui-Gon Jinn could have freed the slaves, or else Queen Amidala could have bought their freedom (she was, after all, very wealthy).

    And don?t retort by saying that their situation was desperate, because it doesn?t hold up under scrutiny. Why doesn?t Queen Amidala purchase their fr
  16. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    I seem to remember many stories told from an Imperials point of view,most notably MareeK Stele,who after fighting for the Empire began to realise something was wrong about them,and wanted out.

    There were others.

    On a personal note I never saw anything *GOOD* in TIE Fighter.

    Stopping the Sepan civil War didn't seem very noble,and the way they did it wasn't very smart.

    The Empire took sides in the beginning of the campaign fighting against the other side.If it had won,one side of Sepan civilization would praise them while the other would harbor hatred toward them.As it turned out the Empire botched the job,making both the Dimok and Ripolus clans of the Sepan civilization hate them,and try to join the Rebellion.

    I'm sure one thing that kept the Dimoks and Ripolus together was there hatred of the Empire,and the hope that one day they would get revenge.Yet again the Empire had turned an entire civilization against them.

    As for Qui-Gon and the Queen,it was not their place to interfere with the going ons of Tatooine.

    However Palpatine was ruler and virtual dictator of the Galaxy,and as ruler,the welfare of the people should have been first and foremost in his mind.Why did he not stop his officers from indulging in slavery or other disgusting acts?


    Just to clarify:

    You think the majority of the Empire did not indulge in slavery?

    As for the "from the victor's point of view"matter.

    If you believe that the Empire only seems evil because it's told mostly from the Rebellion's point of view then how do you know that most of the stories we read is ACTUALLY how it happened???

    What if Isards Revenge is nothing but a tale derived from Rebel propaganda and that Krennel is really still alive and holding out in his territory?

    What if the Empire didn't blow up Alderaan?

    But SW isn't real.What's presented to us in these stories should be taken as fact.There's no one trying to cover up the truth,simply because it's not real.

    But forget all that..........

    What exactly did you see in the Empire?

    That's my question........

    And no one has ever answered my original question.....

    If an Empire similar to the one in SW rose up on Earth,would you support it?Would you want to live in this Empire?
  17. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    We stated very clearly that the facts are the same, but the picture is different.

    Bias is not the same thing as sheer duplicitous propaganda---American historical texts contain the former, Soviet historical texts often contained the latter. There is a severe difference.

    We did not accuse the Rebellion/Republic of the latter, only the former.

    There were those in the Empire that did commit reprehensible acts. And they should be held accountable for those acts. Amongst those people were the Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin and Admiral Daala.

    The termination of the Sepan Civil War may not have been done for noble reasons, but the fact is that the Civil War was being fueled by the Rebel Alliance---Admiral Harkov was leaking stolen Imperial resources to both sides of the War.

    The Rebel Alliance was giving support to both sides of a violent and wasteful civil war that was a tremendous detriment to the Sepan people.

    Hardly a noble undertaking by the sainted Rebel Alliance. Amazing that this is rarely---if ever---mentioned again. Ever notice how seldom the topic of paying the ruthless and cruel Admiral Harkov to defect is brought up?

    And as for Qui-Gon Jinn, is he not a Jedi?

    Are the Jedi not the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy?

    Is not slavery an affront to that very justice?

    The Queen could very easily have returned to Tatooine and purchased the freedom of the slaves. Did she? Evidently not.

    As for His Excellence....

    Have you ever noticed how often acts of evil are attributed to the Emperor? In the post-Palpatine era, how often his name is reviled for actions of the Empire?

    The New Republic seems to have decided that "Emperor" and "Empire" are synonymous.

    But....

    ---quote---------
    Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace.
    -----------------

    ---A NEW HOPE, p. 3

    ---quote---------
    Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.
    -----------------

    ---A NEW HOPE, p. 3

    According to this canon section of text, the Emperor was a recluse, and a majority of the misdeeds attributed to the Empire were in fact perpetrated by the greedy oligarchs, technocrats, plutocrats, et al. who enjoyed positions of authority.

    The Emperor himself was not involved in a majority of the deeds attributed to him---including but not limited to the destruction of Alderaan.

    And as for his not stopping these misdeeds....

    Picture this:

    The Roman Emperor is out enjoying the weather in one of his villas somewhere in rural Italia.

    A courier enters the atrium, and walks directly to the Emperor and says:

    "My Emperor, I know you do not wish to be disturbed, but I have terrible news! A centurion in Britannia has been abusing his authority!"

    Is the Roman Emperor going to care?

    Of course not.

    Why should he care?

    Consider the following:

    As of A NEW HOPE, there are one million full member systems of the Galactic Empire. Not member planets, member systems.

    Let us assume that our solar system, as it is now, is typical of each of those systems.

    That is extremely low, by the way; Earth is a pre-interstellar travel planet with only one inhabited planet out of nine.

    We will assume, nonetheless, that the Earth's population of six billion (6E9) is typical of each of the one million (1E6) member systems of the Empire.

    6E9 * 1E6 = 6E15

    According to these very rough calculations, the Empire has a population of six quadrillion.

    Keep in mind that this assumes a massive population centre like Imperial Centre has the same population as the planet Earth.

    Curtis Saxton calculated, that if Imperial Centre had the same population density as the Australian city of Perth (1E4 to 2E4 persons per kilometre), Imperial Centre would have a population of 9E12, or nine trillion persons.

    When one calculates the population of the eleven million (1.1E10) planets that are also part of the Emperor's domain---simply not full members---one receives (again, assuming
  18. Waning Drill Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Of course he wouldn't care. And that's exactly the problem.
  19. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    When chaos is breaking loose in the galaxy and people couldn't even feed themselves, talking about freedom and love is pure bluff, because no one is going to care.
  20. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    Come now, Matthew, have you nothing to say?

    We're enjoying this. You can keep it up, ja?
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    EMPIRE! Toss the bloody aliens into the camps!
  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    A possible reason for the lack of aliens in the Imperial/Old Republic/New Republic militaries: Perhaps humans are the most aggressive species. Therefore, the most suitable for military operations. Granted, there are problems with this theory: There are probably trillions of species in the Star Wars galaxy. I doubt humans are the top of the list in terms of aggressive sentient species.
  23. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    I have much to say ToP,but I imagine we could debate this for eternity like eternal gods.I too have enjoyed this debate,but I have said my piece,and that is it.
  24. Jedi Jim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 1999
    star 1
    Whew! It's been a long time since I posted here. I'm sure GMJ would be happy to see the Thread is still going strong.

    For those who haven't read the entire thread, I am a rebel.

    TOP, just a couple of responses to the many points contained in your last post.

    1. Statistics is a poor substitute for logic, especially where the issue is the value of sentient life. In any event, if there are too many citizens for one person to rule, a government of multiple elected representatives makes more sense.

    2. The argument that a leader is not responsible for atrocities commited in his name is ridiculous. It's like saying a police chief has no responsibility to discipline officers who commit police brutality. If the Emperor takes the position that preventing government atrocities is not part of his job, he shouldn't be surprised that there was a successful rebellion against him.

    3. Many of the justifications you make for a totalitarian state have been made by some infamous dictators here on Earth, such as Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin. Their systems of "government" didn't last very long either.

    Long live the New Republic.

    --------------------
    "Now, what we have here is a dead shark." - Woody Allen
  25. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    ---quote---------
    1. Statistics is a poor substitute for logic, especially where the issue is the value of sentient life. In any event, if there are too many citizens for one person to rule, a government of multiple elected representatives makes more sense.
    -----------------

    At what point did anyone ever comment that there were too many people for one person to rule?

    Are you suggesting that the Galactic Empire was too big for the Emperor?

    If that is the case, you are empirically wrong. The Emperor did not rule the Empire. Per the canon novelisation of A NEW HOPE, he was a recluse, and rarely involved in the operations of the Empire.

    While nominally an autocracy, the Galactic Empire was not a monarchy.

    No, indeed, the Galactic Empire was, depending upon to whom one listens, an aristocracy or an oligarchy.

    Have you studied history, Mister? If so, then why is it that you think that representative governments are so short-lived? The oldest such government is a mere two centuries in duration. Representative governments gradually become less and less representative the larger and the older they become.

    Have you ever noticed, Mister, that most of the largest and longest lasting states are autocracies? There is a reason for that.

    ---quote---------
    2. The argument that a leader is not responsible for atrocities commited in his name is ridiculous. It's like saying a police chief has no responsibility to discipline officers who commit police brutality. If the Emperor takes the position that preventing government atrocities is not part of his job, he shouldn't be surprised that there was a successful rebellion against him.
    -----------------

    No, it is like saying that Woodrow Wilson, in the last days of his presidency, was not responsible if a squad of United States infantrymen chose to shoot two or three imperial German prisoners.

    How many times must we say this? The Emperor took no position on things of the sort. He was a recluse. He rarely did anything that the public would hear about. The fact is, the Emperor wasn?t even notified that Alderaan was destroyed until ex post facto. He simply wasn?t involved.

    Not as though that matters to the New Republic. For example, in ISARD?S REVENGE, Cpt. Asyr Sei?lar says that the Emperor destroyed Alderaan. Which is empirically false. So, like the New Republic, you have chosen to blame the Emperor for everything that the Empire did. A fallacy, to say the least.

    Let us hear what a greater mind has to say on the subject, shall we?

    N.B.---the following quotes are from THE PRINCE, written by Nicolò Machiavelli.

    ---quote---------
    ?A prince should care nothing for an accusation of cruelty so long as he keeps his subjects united and loyal; by making a very few examples he can be more truly merciful than those who through too much tender-heartedness allow disorders to arise whence come killings and rapine. For these offend an entire community, while a few executions ordered by the prince affect only a few individuals.?
    -----------------

    In that, the Galactic Empire has been a model government; it has prevented massive disorder through harsh enforcement of order. Hardly the case for the New Republic; SPECTER OF THE PAST and VISION OF THE FUTURE prove quite clearly that the New Republic is a flawed entity, unable to enforce order amongst its constituents.

    Rather like the Articles of Confederation; one can only hope that a Constitution come along and preserve the Republic.

    ---quote---------
    ?Whence the question arises; whether it is better to be loved than feared or feared than loved. The answer is that it would be desirable to be both? it is much safer to be feared than to be loved, if one must choose. For on men in general this observation may be made: They are ungrateful, fickle, and deceitful, eager to avoid dangers, and avid for gain, and while you are useful to them they are all with you, offering you their blood, their property, their lives, and their sons so long as danger is remote? but when it approaches they turn on you.?

    ?

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