Empire vs. Rebellion (ver 2.1) Back where it belongs!!!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grand Moff Jerjerrod, Nov 25, 1999.

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  1. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    Before we answer, you must first understand something about us, and the way we look at things.

    As far as we are concerned, Niccolò Machiavelli hit the nail on the head when he said:

    ?Si guarda al fine.?

    ?In the actions of all men, and especially of princes, where there is no impartial arbiter, one must consider the final result.?

    We feel that whilst at times, His Imperial Majesty did have his excesses, and at times, he did neglect his responsibilities, he was an excellent governor and statesman.

    Under his regime, order and law ruled the day. One Imperial dominion did not take up arms against another, and petty efforts to redress ancient wrongs were not tolerated.

    HIM?s regime was brutal and oppressive, at times. Its ruthlessness cannot be denied.

    But it was better than the chaos, decay and disorder that reigned in the last days of the old Republic.

    To paraphrase Machiavelli, Palpatine I was considered cruel; none the less, his cruelty had brought order to the galaxy, united it, restored it to peace and obedience. If we examine this carefully, we shall see that he was more merciful than the New Republic, who, in order to avoid being considered cruel, allowed the rampage of the Yevetha.

    Yes, we understand that the Emperor was patterned after the anti-Christ. But one could just as easily claim that it was patterned after Augustus, or Justinian, or a myriad other just rulers.

    There are times we wish that HIM would have taken a more active role in preventing the excesses of his subordinates; for example, the thankfully late Grand Moff Tarkin.

    But we?re a realist. As far as a galactic government is concerned, HIM is as good as it gets.
  2. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Anyone want to help this poor rebel?
  3. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Anyone want to help this poor rebel?
  4. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Tears, *you* conceded? Et toi aussi, Larmes? Are the Imperials now on the losing trend? ;)

    "The ends justifies the means."

    I have always likened H.I.M. to Cardinal Richelieu, who died unbeloved, or even despised, yet who singularly consolidated the power of the throne, achieved the national unity of France, and inaugurated French supremacy.

    Politics is, well, neither good or evil. So is cruetly. Their nature is defined by the aims toward which the means are directed.

    For H.I.M., it was the galactic supremacy of the Empire that comes first before everything else. For the Empire, it was H.I.M.

    Palpatine is, politician and Sith Lord before all other worldly matters.
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    MT...
    "doesn't that mean that his Empire is was partly established on an illegal basis?"

    Yes it does - because the whole transition from Republic to Empire may fundamentally be an illegal action. While Casta and Tears like to form their opinions founded in real-world examples, there is few actual details surrounding Palpatine's ascension to the Imperial throne. Of the few deatils we know that...
    "It was in this climate of trust that Palpatine declared his New Order and named himself Emperor...When the senators realized what had transpired, they were too weak from their own in-fighting to mount an effective challenge." (Imperial Sourcebook)

    The fact is that Palpatine _DECLARED HIMSELF EMPEROR_ and that no one was able to properly and legally defend against such action. In a Republic, no person can legally "declare himself Emperor." However, just because Palaptine was too powerful, does _NOT_ mean that what he did was proper. Palpatine created his NEW ORDER illegally.

    That is an assumption that none of HNO's defenders can deny. When attempting to defend Palpatine and HNO, their defenders cannot rely on a clear and legal transfer of power, because there is proof contrary to such claims.

    Palpatine's New Order as well as the Rebellion which followed it were illegal.
  6. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    The hard, concrete fact is that a government becomes legitimate by defeating its predecessor. This is an unpleasant way of putting it, but it is the cold truth of history.

    The difference between a rebellion and a new government is that a new government succeeds.

    Here is a list of people that helped establish governments through "illegal" means.

    Lucius Iunius Brutus & Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus
    Gaius Iulius Cæsar
    Flavius Valerius Constantinus
    William III & Mary II
    George Washington
    Napoléon Bonaparte
    Maximilian Hapsburg
    Vladimir Illyich Ulyanov
    Francisco Franco

    However, curiously, none of the governments that they instituted are considered "illegal" or "unlawful."

    No, as cynical as it may sound, the measure of a regime's legality lay within its ability to defeat the previous regime.

    The Roman Republic became legal because Iunius and Tarquinius Collatinus bested Lucius Tarquinius Superbus.

    Iulius was named dictator perpetuus because he defeated Gnæus Pompeius Magnus and the his supporters.

    Constantinus became augustus because with 20,000 men he dominated the 100,000 men of Marcus Aurelius Valerius Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge.

    William III and Mary II were crowned king and queen of Great Britain because their supporters ousted James II and his.

    Washington was able to become president because he and others had cornered Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown.

    Napoléon became emperor because he simply held more power than the various other factions in France at the time.

    Maximilian was crowned emperor because Charles Louis Napoléon Bonaparte and his forces supported him against the Mexicans.

    Ulyanov only became premier because the Reds defeated the czarist forces of Nicholas III.

    Franco likewise only became premier because his insurgent forces were successful in their rebellion against the loyalists.

    His Imperial Majesty and the Galactic Empire are legitimate by virtue of the fact that they succeeded the Galactic Republic.

    In politics, one cannot have a more solid claim to legitimacy.

    And Casta:

    Nihil me decepit, neque aliquid me pænitet. Si occidatur veritate, vere ille pereat.
  7. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    One of these days I'm going to bug the admins. to get a language translator that translates Latin or whatever that is..........
  8. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    No illusions, no regrets. If the truth shall kill a man, then let him die.
  9. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Thank you.

    Then since the NR managed to overthrow the Empire and succeed it,would that not make it the legitamate government?
  10. The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 3
    Much as we are loathe to admit it, yes, the New Republic is legitimate.
  11. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Hélas, Tears, j'entends ce que tu veux dire.

    I shall concede this point. The legitimacy of the New Republic government is justified by the recognition of its citizens and other existing governments, regardless of however unconstitutional its ascendancy to power maybe. In fact, I think that whether a government a legal or not depends on the recognition of the mass and other political entities.

    The Rebel Alliance was seditious and wholly illegal, but it existed merely as a resistance group, a disgruntled minority that would eventually win over the majority. The New Republic, as I said above, is legitimate, both by Tears' criteria and by the principle of collective and diplomatic recognition set forth by me.

    I hereby retract all my previous statements on this forum that declared NR as illegal. I apologize for my purblind views.
  12. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    <<Nihil me decepit, neque aliquid me pænitet. Si occidatur veritate, vere ille pereat.>>

    Yes, yes. La peine de la vérité.

    Moi, je tremble, toujours tremble, de la savoir, surtout quand j'ai peur de me faire mal à cause de cela.

    *cough* Up. Up. En avance. *cough*

    Ce sujet est si révelateur qu'il ne faut pas le laisser tomber dans l'oubli.
  13. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
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