Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grand Moff Jerjerrod, Nov 25, 1999.
For the glory of the Empire...death to the rebel scum!!
Hey, Grand Moff J, how about we start the count again from the beginning, with the Empire, Thrawn's Empire, and the Rebels?
Just a suggestion.
To prove that the Empire and Palpatine is evil did you ever wonder what the term dark side means. They don't call it Dark Side of the Force because it's good.
lizzie, how do you justify killing zillions of troopers (and also civilians) who were just trying to defend their homes and families from terrorism?
(talking of the Death Star issues here)
...you probably never played the TIE Fighter game or else you wouldn't have asked...
Hm. The Empire has awfully good background music, but the Rebellion has cooler ships and recognizable human faces. . . .
Seriously -- from an author's POV, it's always easier to make a convincingly nasty villain than an interesting (and still virtuous) hero! So in my (formerly humble and cloaked) opinion, Rebels have a tougher job -- and do it better.
Count one more for the Rebellion!
Corran - The supposed Light Jedi termed the areas of the Force which the 'Dark' Jedi used 'Dark'. In fact, this can be underlying racism, which in turn makes the Light Jedi evil.
I'm thinking racism had nothing to do with the different sides of the Force.
Nice try though howlrunner.
Honestly, Shmi52, what's so cool about a Calamari Cruiser? Looks like something the dog dragged in...
...but then, Star Destroyers look like the literal 'piece of cake'...!
Well now JHC did anyone here ever say that the Empire was not evil? The fact is that the Empire is just so much better than the rebels and has all the cool stuff that even if the Empire was evil then it would still be better than the rebellion. The fact that the Sith use the "dark-side" of the force does not mean to say that they are evil, it is simply the view of the Jedi. As their views are opposite it is only natural for each side to consider itself the right side.
As to Leia having to "prove" that the Empire was deceiving them - well apart from the fact that when she first said it there was not really any doubt on their part, nor ever any challenge by any Noghri despite all the help the Empire had given them - you miss the point which is that the Noghri were kept away from the rest of the galaxy for a good reason.
As to how do I justify the Empire's actions? The greater long term good, you may not be long-sighted enough to see it but allowed to run to their logical conclusion the Empire's galaxy would have been one of peace and harmony.
Currant Bun, Sun
The Empire has WAY cooler cruisers, but the Rebels have better starfighters.
"The greater long term good, you may not be long-sighted enough to see it but allowed to run to their logical conclusion the Empire's galaxy would have been one of peace and harmony."
What "greater long term good"? The Empire oppressed its citizenry and caused them to rebel rather than submit to its vision of a "long term good". That doesn't sound like peace and harmony to me. A government that fails to respect the rights of the invividuals which it governs will not last long - once it pi$$es off enough of them that they choose to break the law and rebel rather than submit, it will fall. The only logical conclusion to make is that the Empire will fail (which it did).
The problem with the notion of a "greater long term good" is that not everyone has the same beliefs as to just what that is. People may choose to agree on a common goal (i.e., as happens in a republic or democracy), but that is different from having someone else's "greater long term good" imposed on you under threat of force.
The Imperials argue that a strong, centraized government will reduce chaos and promote order, presumably an order based upon adherence to the rule of law. A government of laws is a good thing - it is much better than rule by the whims of those in power. However, laws serve a useful purpose only so long as people respect them. People will not respect a law that is arbitrary or capricious, nor will they respect one that is immoral. The Empire justifies genocide and murder as necessary to preserve its rule of law. This is immoral, illogical, despicable and cowardly. It is also the reason for the Rebellion.
" * * * you may not be long-sighted enough to see it * * * ". This has nothing to do with our topic - it is simply a personal attack upon your opponents. If you want to discuss the merits of the issue, that is fine. But calling the Rebels short-sighted doesn't prove your point.
P.S. My vote is for the Rebels.
[This message has been edited by Jedi Jim (edited 12-03-1999).]
Just for the record, this is not a Thrawn's Empire vs. Palpatine's Empire vs. Gonk's Empire vs. any other Empire you can think of. This it The Empire. So, to answer your question, no, the change will not be made.
But GMJ, The Empire was ruled completly different by Palpy than it was by Thrawn.
Palpy was a racist, sexist jerk who wanted to rule the galaxy.
Thrawn didn't care what race or sex you were, he just wanted to bring order to the galaxy.
10 maybe no-one mention the Empire being good I only skimmed the previous posts, but it happened alot in the other Empire or Rebellion debate.
Howlrunner I wasn't even thinking about racism when I wrote about the Dark side meaning bad.
On a dark, cloudy, rainy day would not be a good thing, as oppose to a light sunny day, which I would assume be a good thing.
Have you ever studied art. If you have, then you know when an artist wants to express joy and happiness he would not use dark colours like blues and greys, you'll tend to use colours like yellow, reds and oranges.
Heres one more, ever see the film 'Schindlers List'(sp) why do you think Spielberg filmed it in black and white because black and white expressed a more darker mood than colour would which has nothing to do with racism.
Just ask if you want more examples.
Being of the highly liberal persuasion myself, I personally read the issue as conservative vs liberal. Conservative meaning you want to conserve the present (or return to a 'better' past), at any expense, liberal meaning you work for change to improve the lot of all.I'll let you guess which is which........yup, I'm a REBEL!!!!
Do'h! Oh well, if it's palpy's Empire, I suppose my vote will have to go the Rebels.
BTW, Jedi Corran Horn, I like cloudy days much more than stupid sunny days.
D'oh! Oh well, if it's palpy's Empire, I suppose my vote will have to go the Rebels.
BTW, Jedi Corran Horn, I like cloudy days much more than stupid sunny days.
"What greater good" well the greater good that would have occured had it not been for the malacious attacks of the malevolent rebels. The Empire was trying to bring peace and order to the galaxy and then a couple of rich people lose money because of it and decide that this is a reason to try and overthrow the legtimate government.
The resulting 20+ years of conflict can be laid firmly at the feet of the rebels along with the martial law that was forced upon the Empire by the rebels continous attempts to undermine the government. Now see what it has produced! A weak government which allows the original "rebels" to do as they wish and regain what they lost during the Empire's reign. Did they care about the trillions of lives lost about the planets devastated, no they were simply glad to be back in their positions of power.
If people had followed the Empire there would have been no conflict or dissent on the galaxy. If that is not the greater good then kindly tell what is. I do not think pointing out a flaw which someone has is a "personal attack" if you want to take it then who am I to interefere with your inferiority complex?
As to a sunny day being "good" ,JHC, and other such things, that is simply your own in-built prejudice, as to colours it is the same for most people but it is still only a point of view with nothing more than opinion behind it.
The problem with liberalism is that it can only be relied upon to keep a system moving where everyone is of more or less compatible views, not something that I would assume is going to happen that much in an entire galaxy, the Empire doesn't have such a major defect as this.
JJJ, it's not Palpatine's Empire this is based on, it is THE Empire in whatever shape or form you take it as, or something like that.
View to a chill
JJJ, if that is the way you feel, then you were never a true Imperial in the first place and it's better that you can stay with the other confused people here. I don't care if it's Palpatine's, Thrawn's, mine, or *shudder* EDN's... the main thing is that I cannot accept the fact that the rebels use the argument that the Imperials were ruthless and such when all they were was a coup and terrorist group.
Terrorist group??? Come come now GMJ. We were never a terrorist group. And I seriously doubt that you or any of the Imperials in here would be loyal to the Empire if it was run by EDN. And if you did stay loyal to the Empire, I could see a massive revolt inside the Empire headed up by you and 10 in attempt to over throw him, and then there would be chaos again.
*I don't know what that has to do with the debate, I could just see it happening.*
BTW- This is post 97. 3 more and we'll break into 3-digits!!!!
While I am a REBEL at heart, I have to say that the Empire is a worthy opponent for whom I can have respect. I don't forsee a New Republic vs Yuuzan Vong thread anytime soon!
My fellow passionate paladins of the righteous rebellion! Do not hesitate to cast your vote for the one and only good and best government. The REBELLION! The evil and destructive ensigns of the slimy, disgusting and weak Palpatine can not harm you in any way over the Internet!
They speak of order in the galaxy, of returning the peacefullness we once enjoyed. They will give us peace, peace under constant surveillance, lock and key, blaster and pistol. If you will look back through earth's history, you will see another like the empire, Hitler. He spoke of peace, of control, of keeping the 'alien scum' (Jews) in line. And how did he do that, may i ask you. How? By torturing them, by burning them in ovens, by putting them in poisonous showers, by putting them under a 'doctors' knife, conscious and alive, cutting them open to see how much pain they could take so that he could hurt them further. Is the empire any different? They blew up Alderaan! They destroyed Caamas! They enslaved the Wookie race and other races! They took children from Qwi Xux planet and worked them so hard and 'taught' them so much that some of them had mental breakdowns! They corrupted innocent babies from birth and tore family's apart!
Some may say that the Rebellion was something made of their own anger, but i can tell you, noble sentients, that the Empire made the Rebellion itself. Their obsession with universal dominance destroyed them. And their stupidity and overconfidence put an end to their miserable, disgusting lives.
I encourage all you people who are standing on the fence, to come into the light, the Rebellion. You who are staying neutral, may think that you are not taking sides, but you are. By staying out of this noble fight that started at the beginning of time when Eve took the apple from the snake, you are doing what the empire wants. They have enough support, and by staying where you are, by not supporting the side of good, you are helping the side of evil.
As you can see, i must concede that i most vehemently say:
Here's a little extract of a song to spur the Rebellion on:
"Here we are,
Born to be kings.
We are the princes of the universe!"
So whether you are a King, Queen, Prince or Princess, you are destined to rule the universe with justice, love and righteousness!
REBELS FOREVER AND ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!
(by the way, part of the reason i love the Rebellion so much is because my Han is part of it! )
They are good and good will always over come evil in a fantasy universe.
of course the empire had to discipline a few worlds but if we hadn't done that there would have been chaos across the galaxy.
plus we have star destroyers - brilliant warships.
ps: true imperials will acknowledge darth vader as a traitor as well (end of rotj)
10 I was trying to point out that the light and dark side have nothing to do with racism, uless you think otherwise.