Empire vs. Rebellion (ver 2.1) Back where it belongs!!!

Ah, the unending sound of unthinking rebel propaganada, like the tide lapping at a beach in its unending nature. Well HB12 if you really want to go through with the whole "Holier than thou" routine be my guest but it has been tried dozens of times before and it gets no one any further forward it simply proves that the same points can be repeated time and time again.

The truth is that the rebel terrorists, as I have said many times, were fearful of the order that the Empire was bringing.

Not because of any form of oppression or torture such as conjoured from the over-active imagination of HB12 and her massive book of fictious crimes and rebel propaganda but because this order threatened the comfortable existance that these so-called rebels were enjoying at the expense of others. The Empire had good reason for all that it did and yet there is little justification for the billions of lives lost because of the rebels military actions. While the Empire was attempting to prevent conflict and hold together its strong and helpful government the rebels attempted to destroy this by causing chaos and destruction.

To allow the rebels to rule for any great period of time is to allow the galaxy to fall to the forces of chaos. The bias that misportrays the Empire must be case aside, too long have people laboured under the impression that the Empire is evil, is it evil to desire a galaxy of peace and tranquility? I think not, but to actively go about the destruction of a government by killing innocents and ultimately creating a civil war that destroys planets, that is certainly not good.

Do not listen to the rebels, they seek to sway you with the lure of glory and justice but you must denounce them for what they are, traitors, criminals and malcontents. When a true threat such as the YV they are more incomptent than even the worst of the portrayls of the Empire.

A vote for the Empire is a vote for sanity and order. A vote for the rebels is like voting for a big bail of hay.

Of course just in case some people missed it I was actually mocking HB12 with that last bit because serious as this debate is, it's impossible to deliver a good speech on the Net, especially in a text-based forum.

10
15 men on a dead man's chest. Is that the actual chest of the man or a chest in the possesion of the deceased?

 

I find it as hardly worth the effort fighting for the Empire since you Rebels keep saying the same things over and over again. "You were evil, you were corrupt, you destroyed Alderaan, and we won the war, so we're better than you ever were!"
Where do you Rebels get these ideas? I understand the Alderaan part, but it wasn't just us who destroyed it. You Rebels had your own say in it. Had you not rebelled, Alderaan and its citizens would still be there. As for us being "evil" and "corrupt," well, you yourselves aren't perfect. You are all weak in the faces of enemies such as the Yevetha and YV, which will lead to your inevitable downfall. Not only that, but you allow aliens into your government, which means more opinions and more people to please. In fact, there's such a diversity it is a miracle that you could survive at all, except through authors who share your own idealism (I'm not saying all authors are bad, though). That is one thing the Empire had over you: we didn't have to please everyone, just the humans. You Rebels, as I keep saying, did not realize what you had going for you in the Empire. We humans ruled the galaxy, humans could have anything! Yet you decided you wanted lesser species to live side-by-side with you. Their species only depend on us for their survival, and they pull us back and keep us from moving on to bigger and better things. And finally, the Empire has not lost. Alas! We still live, waiting patiently for our opportunity to regain control of the galaxy! While we cleverly gain a certain alliance with the YV we as well gain Chiss support and will soon move in to take back what you took from us in a most illegal and violent action. And once that happens you Rebels will be flocking to us in mercy, mercy which shall not be yours!


GAK
is accepting defectors now. Defection means you and your families will still have a chance to live, lest you be anything other than Chiss or Human.

 

as you will notice, if you watch the tide lap against the beach, you will see that the sand it laps upon, shifts and is eroded away. Taken to be used in the ocean which, in its undaunted view that it could win, will ultimately dissolve away the toughest rock. Also, oceans are much bigger than beaches

Ahhhhhh, shall we talk about propoganda? Okay, lets do. I shall start with cold, hard facts and compare it to what you Imps (which means evil fairys that are very, very tiny) have said about it.

Fact:Alderaan was a place where the law was peace,
and you blew it up to try and goad
Princess Leia to reveal where the Rebel base was.

Imps (evil little fairys) propoganda and very flimsy 'justification':"Alderaan was planning to help destroy us"

That, my friends, is fear at work, fear that the relentless tide of the Rebels would erode away their power and wealth.

Oh, and by the way, hay feeds the animals that trample the rodents (Imps (evil little fairys))

So, all you
I nconsiderate,
M urdering,
P eabrained,
E xecrable,
R ampant,
I nternecine,
A nnihilating,
L ynching,
S cum,
Watch out, the Rebels are in town!


Imps: devilkin, little devil, demon, evil spirit, hobgoblin, bogey, boogeyman, kobold, troll, pigmy, Inconsiderate Murdering Peabrained Execrable Rampant Internecine Annihilating Lynching Scum.

Sorry, couldn't resist

MTFBWY
HB12

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

Yub, just my opinion, but what would we do without some imps to shoot at ? I mean, one can't take this nouveau riche Yuuzhan Vong seriously, so there has to be someone to have a little fun with...

I think we should keep us a sector of impspace, to show our children a bit of eveil and to have some fun when life gets boring. They are so cute when they get angry

 

oops. somebody should update his software now...

 

That somebody is, in all probability, a REBEL.

 

Vury nyse, Han Babe 12

Tenebrae - resort to ad hominem attacks sounds like the definition of "inferiority complex" to me. If the rebels are so short-sighted, tell us how. Give some examples. Simply saying "eventually, there would have been peace and order" doesn't do it. Eventually, there was a rebellion. Eventually, the Empire fell. Eventually, the Empire came over to the Alliance's way of thinking, and sought a truce and peaceful coexistence.

Your reply to that seems to be "the rebels should have put up with having relatives abducted, neighbors murdered, children drafted, other races enslaved, and their ability to peacefully influence the government that ruled them taken from them until everyone who disagreed with that government was either in prison or dead, and all the non-humans were 'put in their place', and then there would have been peace and order, and we all would have lived happily ever after, the end."

Come on. You have to be able to do better than that.

Why not at least say that a strong government and strict rule of law is justified in a time of civil unrest? That at least sounds better, right?

Wrong - because that argument fails when a power-hungry and corrupt leader like Palpatine is the person responsible for creating that civil disorder (i.e., the illegal blockade of Naboo, i.e., the enslavement of non-human, sentient races like wookies, i.e., the destruction of worlds like Camaas, i.e., the subornation of leaders like Chancellor Valorum, i.e., the use of super-weapons like the first and second Death Star to maintain order by the application of terror over your own people, i.e., the dissolution of representative government).

How can you support a system of government that condones slavery of other races, such as Chewbacca's enslavement? Would you also argue that American enslavement of Africans was justified as contributing to the greater economic good of the USA? Should the Americans still be practicing slavery?

How can you possibly think it is acceptable to silence peaceful opponents (like the senators who vocally opposed Palpatine before rebelling, like the jedi who fight only in defense, never in aggression) by kidnapping them, killing them, blackmailing them, etc.? Does that mean you think it would have been okay for the United States government to kill JFK, Martin Luther King, or Malcolm X, in order to silence valid opinions that conflicted with the self-interest of the powers-that-be?

How can you support a government that believes it is okay to wipe out indigenous peoples to further "the greater common good"? Was it okay for the United States to murder, imprison and virtually enslave Native Americans so that "the West could be won"?

Imperial attempts to point out the rebellions' faults fare no better than the pathetic arguments they make in support of their system of tyranny (oops, I meant government ).

Leia was responsible for the destruction of Alderaan, because she should have just lead murderous Tarkin and diabolical Darth Vader to the rebellion's stronghold? Yeah, that makes sense - kill billions because one disobeys. The Imps are off to a strong start.

The rebs are no better because they killed non-combat military personnel when they destroyed the first and second Death Stars? [sarcasm]Sound reasoning - the people who help maintain and operate the ultimate terror weapons in the universe are not a proper military target[/sarcasm].

The rebs have killed billions of bystanders while battling the Imperials? Who is really responsible for this, the rebels fighting for their (and everyone else's) freedom of choice, or the tyrannical, totalitarian regime that has made that rebellion necessary in the first place? I'd say the oppressive government is responsible - it governed so ineptly that its citizens were forced to violently rebel (because representative government had been dissolved) rather than submit to its rule.

Besides, the Empire didn't need any help wiping out people, races or worlds - it did plenty of that all on its own (Camaas, Alderaan, Honoghr, the attempt to murde

 

Another example of lack of patience by a rebel. Alderran... here goes again. Alderran was not disturbed by the Empire while the rebellion was going on. They did nothing to them whatsoever. Only after they began harboring rebels and delivering stolen data and plans (a treasonous and terrorist act) did the Empire react. Leia had the chance to save Alderran, but she chose to lie about her beloved Rebellion. Talk to her about that. Also, even if one considers this anti-terrorist act wrong, blame it on Tarkin, not The Empire. Do you honestly believe that the average citizen in The Empire knew that that was going on? However, on the opposite end of the spectrum, every one of the rebels knew exactly what they were trying to do. Overthrow the existing government in a violent coup. No one cries for the innocent Imperials killed by rebel attacks by spies, defectors, and terrorist raids. Some of you may say "But The Empire took over the Old Senate, blah blah blah", when in reality, that is inaccurate. When Palpatine was in power, he dissolved the old government, implementing a new one. Therefore, in actuality, it was the same government, just in a different one, much like when a monarchy changes to a parliamentary system, etc. However, if you are unwilling to accept that point of view, let's look at it from another one. The United States gained it's independance from Great Britain through a revolution. Now, the US gov't. is stable and provides benefits for the majority of its citizens. The Empire did the same. Although a minority of the citizens may not be happy, I'm sure none of you would accept a coup to overthrow the US government. But wait, didn't we kill off nearly every Native American living here and enslave the blacks for hundreds of years? Doesn't that warrant a coup? Would that give Canada the right to attempt to overthrow the US in the name of blacks and Native Americans (added to the fact that they have to pay a tax when visiting for the winter)? According to your logic, it would. Also, in Vietnam, a war time, just as the Empire was experiencing with the rebels, US troops would take out entire villages that were harboring VC. Is that not the same situation as Alderran. In proportion to population, it is. A galaxy with millions of planets in it hardly senses the loss of one planet population wise. The same held true with said village. Although they may not directly be belligerant towards the US, they are hiding terrorists who endanger the stability of the mission and country (in this case S. Vietnam).

Let me paraphrase what the rebel response will be: But that's different!!!
Incorrect, it is exactly the same thing. It's just the quasi-logic that the rebels use to try to persuade people to believe that just because everyone isn't happy, the government is bad and should be overthrown. I say put a stop to childish arguments like "you're stupid, you're wrong, etc., etc.". Also, don't blame bad arguments on lesser intelligent members of your group, as a group's strength is determined by it's weakest member.

GMJ

 

Ironically enough, I didn't even see the dissertation before mine, but nonetheless, it proves the same thing.

GMJ

 

BTW, Han Babe, I always prided myself of never having resorted to verbal violence (i.e. called a Rebel 'Scum').

After having read your post I started to regret my decision... but I'm too well-mannered to make an exception.


[This message has been edited by Sgt Crowfield (edited 12-06-1999).]

 

GMJ: No, my dissertation doesn't prove your point. You seem to believe that atrocities like Mei Lei, American slavery, and the Trail of Tears are justifiable (or at least you justify similar incidents as acceptable when committed by the Empire). They are not, and I say as much in my post.

The difference between the Empire and the United States is that the U.S. still has a form of government where the citizens can effect change through peaceful means (we can vote). The Empire seems to provide no such mechanism - it is a dictatorship, where all governmental functions are performed by the executive branch.

Usurping power by deception, political maneuvering and blackmail does not form the basis for a legitimate government - and that is precisely how Palpatine came to power and the Empire was created.

Your position seems inconsistent to me, and not born out after more than a cursory examination of the facts is made.

 

Well, as I thought, my post was not taken with due intent. My intent was to show that in fact, you all are fighting against the same ideals and accepted actions(The Empire) that many of you wholeheartedly support (that being the US government). Also, I don't meant to sound pessimistic, but if you truly believe the general public runs the government and not the politicians, you need to have a wakeup call or an honest evaluation of the government. Also, in the SW galaxy, many of the worlds went along about their normal business, as long as they agreed to pay taxes, obey the laws, etc. set forth by The Empire and they just reported to the local Moff. My question to you is how often does the Senate do more than an opinion poll when passing laws? They don't. Does that sound like real democracy to you?

GMJ

 

Whoo, too long arguments for me.

Just wanted to point out to Darth Tuna that liberalism doesn't literally mean improvement. The point of liberalism is to give every individual the freedom to make the choices concerning his or her life, to give every human the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't harm other people, or infringe on their equal rights.

You might argue that the Rebels aren't strictly liberal, but rather conservative as they are trying to bring back old values and sets of rules, and, something that goes against the liberal way of thinking, a centralized republic.

Of course, the Empire is even more the opposite, since they actively opress people.

If we're going strictly for the movies, I'll choose the Empire though. Reasons? Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, ISD's, SSD's, etc.

 

I am impressed. GMJ, HB12, JJ, GAK, 10, you all bring up very good arguments for both sides. I see reason and logic to both arguments. The more the debate continues on. . . . well lets just say (and I hate to even believe that I would ever think this) with the facts that are being brought up, I'm not sure I know where I stand anymore (you have no idea how hard it is for me to actually type this).

I am not changing anything yet. I am going to continue to watch and read, and hopefully soon the right decision will present itself.

jedigirl
Have you ever heard of a Jedi on the Imperial side?

 

The problem with the rebels / NR is they are trying to bring back an outdated system that has already failed once and most likely fail again.
At least the empire tried something different, if a little heavy handed at times, but only due to the extreme provocation by outlaws and terrorists who threatened galaxy wide stability. (I'm no communist but you hear of stories from Russians and former East Germans as well as other people from the former eastern bloc states who are now unemployed and have little or no money due to the fall of communism. At least they had jobs under the old system for them to get food for themselves and their families).
Imperial forever !

 

GMJ: I agree, a senate vote has little to do with an opinion poll. But senators are elected. (So are most executive officers - i.e., presidents.) In a republic, at regular intervals citizens have the ability to affect government by selecting leaders that represent their interests. That is an opinion poll.

The Empire lacks this device. Instead, it proceeds upon the platonic notion that "benevolent dictators" are the answer to governmental problems. This simply does not work. Non-elected government officials eventually lose sight of the citizenry's wants and needs. Eventually, unrest and even rebellion result when the government strays too far away from the views and morals of its culture.

When the government in question is committing atrocities like genocide, slavery, and torture against its citizenry, rebellion is a moral mandate, not a crime.

That is the principle that I have based my arguments on. I think that is the same reason that most rebel supporters choose the rebellion - the concept of choice in government by those who are governed, as opposed to rule by a single entity upon whom no checks or balances are placed.

 

The main problem with the rebels is the way they arrogantly think they can do what the old republic couldn't. That is to have a functioning government despite all of the diverse cultures of alien species that make it up. They even have traitors in their government in the bothan's. Emperor Palpatine rescued a dying and decaying government and brought in fresh ideas.
The empire responded in force only after extreme provocation from outlaws and terrorists that threatened the peace.

 

*sigh*

Rebels just seem to be ignoring all of our arguments lately and just restating their own, forcing us to as well repeat, which causes this discussion to go nowhere. If Rebs would pay more attention to our arguments maybe we'd be arguing over something mroe original than the destruction of Alderaan, as performed by Tarkin under Tarkin's orders and not the Emperor's. Like GMJ said, blame Tarkin for Alderaan's destruction, not the general Empire. Besides, there ARE other reason for Alderaan's destruction. For example, like was already mentioned, it was holding stolen goods and Rebel agents. Second, their leaders were corrupt and needed to be stopped, and the people of Alderaan simply followed. Rebellion seems to rub off on people, and had Tarkin not acted quickly we'd have the entire planet of Alderaan rebelling, and then the next systems over would be rebelling, and so on and so forth. The destruction of Alderaan was meant to discourage further growth, but apparently you Rebels don't see this.

As for the argument concerning the distribution of wealth to the populace of the Empire, had you been to the last Empire vs. Rebellion thread you'd have known what we were talking about. 10 explained it perfectly there, and I think you should look it all up in the SW Encyclopedia if you do not understand. I myself read between the lines and realized 10 was right. If you Rebs don't see it it is due to your lack of vision and your focus on the goals of your manipulative leaders.

And as for you Rebs saying that we are simply annoyed at you guys bringing up Alderaan and the other planets, then you are simply incorrect. I enjoy arguing the points, but not so long as you keep purposefully ignoring our points. As for Caamas and Honoghr, there are reasons there as well. Honoghr, for example, we might as well have destroyed, for a violent species lived there that would not hesitate to destroy our troops. But Vader showed mercy to them and allowed them to live, and he gave them a purpose in their existence, a purpose for our righteous and very legal government. As for Caamas, I don't know enough about it to argue. Some other loyal Imperial officer will have to handle that one. 10, perhaps? GMJ?


GAK

 

Caamas... Yes. Well, Zahn has been obviously anti-Imperial all along. And in his Hand of Thrawn series, he just says "Camass - Blame the Imperials and the Bothans". That's it. Baseless and totally rebel.

 

Well Jedi Jim we don't all have the time and massive resources to research quite as much as you, which is a shame, but here is what I say. Of course you will probably say that this is a personal attack when it is nothing of the sort, but that is not something I'm going to worry about.

We all have to make educated guesses when it comes to SW, we just don't know enough to have cold hard facts but we can base assumptions on what we have seen, Jedi Jim all you seem to do is repeat the same things over and over again, as GMJ said you just don't seem read other people's posts, the same can of course be said for many others.

Anyway just saying that the Imperial system doesn't work because you don't think it does is hardly a valid argument, autocracies can survive for millenia.

10
The man who knows