>>Ending dispute about Darth Vader being old<<

I've always thought the Classic Trilogy fight sequences were more realistic, better choreographed, and more skillful than the Prequel Trilogy ones. I see no need for them to be re-done.

I feel that George Lucas should have stood up for himself and said "Darth Vader and Obi-Wan fight like that in the Classic Trilogy because they are older and wiser and now do what works, as opposed to the fancy flashy training they were given as a younger Jedi. Their fighting style shifted towards efficiency and mental concentration, rather than excess physical movement. Similarly, Luke, having never been formally trained in saber skills, also adopted techniques and styles that were simple but effective."

That's why I wanted to see suited Vader fight in RoTS. I wanted to see suited Vader kill many Jedi in his Classic Trilogy, no-nonsense, advancing style. That would have connected the two sagas together by telling us that suited Vader is indeed still a powerful threat (possibly more powerful than RoTS unsuited Anakin), he just fights differently now that he is older, mechanical (possibly slower, but possibly stronger) and more influenced by the Dark Side.

 

I definately won't go as far as saying he's old and decreped, but he's definately slower than he used to be.

 

Fighters purposely banging swords together in attacks that obviously are not even aiming at the enemies' body

Actually the only one who does this consistently is Obi-wan in TPM. And I always took that as a sign of him being reckless as Obi-wan confessed he was in ESB, he's an inexperienced swordsman making classic mistakes. Maul for the most part always goes straight for the kill, except of course when it's two on one against him. Qui-gon has moments where this happens but I view it more as a few quick parries and then he makes a real move. The best example is after Obi-wan has been knocked off the catwalk and Qui-gon and Maul have a their one on one, that's Jedi swordsmanship at it's finest.

moves where one fighter moves to block before the other fighter even starts to swing

I don't mind that at all. They're called Jedi reflexes. Like Qui-gon says, Jedi are able to react to situations and see things before they even happen. The fact that they move to counter before they're oppent has even made their move is what makes me believe that their fighting could work, but you would need the force...of course of course . The only thing I mind is when they move to block but realize they moved too soon, so the either move back or clearly delay the move slightly, that makes it look choreographed.

Maul twirling his body stupidly in positions that leave him backturned for more than enough time for a fatal blow to be dealt upon him, etc.

It's certainly unorthodoxed, but watch Maul again and see how he moves, notice that he has complete and total control over each spin. The fact is that the concept of a double sword itself is unorthodoxed. There is no weapon like it in the real world. The closest thing you'll find is a staff weapon which is far from a comparison. I don't mind Maul's double saber style because there's nothing to compare it too.

sorry,but to me,while your statements about Ray Park are true,just annoys me because it is yet another case of a Maul/qui-gon fan. i'm not saying the duel was crap,but it wasn't exactly that great. I never got attached to qui-gon,so when he died,he died,I'm not sure when in the movie you really get to know Qui and when you really start to like him.he just has a "cool" factore going on.

I admite my admiration for Qui-gon extends beyond his saber skills, but as i've posted in many other thread as you may find, I believe Qui-gon to have the most beautiful saber style in all the films. Whereas Obi-wan hacks through things like he is cutting through a brush, Qui-gon moves fluid and gracefully through adversaries with seemingly little effort, as though he is moving through a stream. At the same time, with maul, he is able to really lay his strikes on hard when he needs to however. Qui-gon in my opinion is a much greater swordsman than Obi-wan is, and before you tell me that Qui-gon lost, so did Obi-wan. Maul won the fight, but his overconfidence cost him the war.

Also,I must disagree with you on the ROTS fight with Anakin vs.OB1
What makes the fight so great? EMOTION. One thing the TPM duel will never have. Anakin and OB1 are 2 best friends,brothers more as,who are in an emotional delima and rage [mostly Anakin on the rage] So ofcourse they wont have the most elegant moves...Its like a full battle of what Luke goes through in ROTJ on Vader.

I never said that the fight in ROTS didn't have incredible setting and emotion. I said that the choreography was no where near as good as it was in TPM because it looked so blatantly choreographed when you look close enough. You are right though, choreography aside, you can really feel the emotion in the fight. Qui-gon and Obi-wan didn't know Maul in a personal sense, so the fight is what it is, an obligatory battle. But that was never my issue in the first place, I got no argument there.

 

Actually the only one who does this consistently is Obi-wan in TPM.

I agree Obi-Wan in TPM is the one at fault. I am blaming TPM choreography as a whole. I am not blaming Darth Maul for everything, only some things.

They're called Jedi reflexes. Like Qui-gon says, Jedi are able to react to situations and see things before they even happen.

By this same argument, the Jedi/Sith attacker should then have plenty of time to change his attack so as to not crash into the enemy's premature "foreseeing-the-future" block. So regardless, we should NEVER see someone move to block or dodge before the attack comes.

Also, if your ability to see the future is so good that you know well in advance what will come, there is no point to blocking. There is generally always a way to actually kill the enemy right then and there if you truly know what is going to happen.

There are lots of stupid choregraphy mistakes in TPM; I only mentioned half or so. I can't believe you don't see them, when you do see a reasonable amount of things in the other movies. I must disagree with your taste in fighting strategy and choreography.

It's certainly unorthodoxed, but watch Maul again and see how he moves, notice that he has complete and total control over each spin.

Maul's double-ended sword/staff techniques are completely orthodox. If you think they are unorthodox it is because your martial arts knowledge in some styles/areas is lacking.

Yes he does have complete control over all his spins and jumps. So what? I can't believe you consider that an issue. Having control over your technique is the most basic requirement; it doesn't mean anything about how effective the move is, or whether it has been used in a dumb situation and left yourself completely open to getting killed. Maul leaves himself open to being killed again and again, as we have been saying. If you can't recognize this it is because you aren't yourself a skilled swordfighter (having formal training or not is irrelevant. Doing well in fencing competitions is what lets you know what really works and what doesn't).

The fact is that the concept of a double sword itself is unorthodoxed. There is no weapon like it in the real world.

That's because a double-edged staff sword is one of the most retarded weapons one can come up with. If you have real fighting experience you would probably know. People have thought about it many times in the past; but it doesn't really work, for many reasons.

That's also part of the reason Maul is open to death many times during the duel. It's not entirely his fault, usage of a weapon like his is extremely restrictive and crippling.

I admite my admiration for Qui-gon extends beyond his saber skills, but as i've posted in many other thread as you may find, I believe Qui-gon to have the most beautiful saber style in all the films. Whereas Obi-wan hacks through things like he is cutting through a brush, Qui-gon moves fluid and gracefully through adversaries with seemingly little effort, as though he is moving through a stream.

You sound to me like a total Qui-gon/Maul fanboy. I don't think you know how to analyze fighting in a correct manner. You must realize that the choreographer is essentially the same for all of TPM. So there are great similarities in the way all 3 of Qui-Gon, Maul, Obi-Wan fight in the movie. Both Nick Gillard and Ray Park are probably to blame for the overall terrible TPM choreography. The fact that you single out Qui-Gon as being so much better than Obi-Wan is ridiculous fanboy crap.

 

The fact that you single out Qui-Gon as being so much better than Obi-Wan is ridiculous fanboy crap.

Uh....Hello! You just said at the very top of your post that "I agree Obi-Wan in TPM is the one at fault." Liam Neeson has his good moments and his bad moments just Like Ewan, but his saber style itself is better than Obi-wan's. As I said before though, Obi-wans use of his style clearly shows that he is not the more experienced swordsman. I'm sure that was the whole point of why he fought the way he did.

That's because a double-edged staff sword is one of the most retarded weapons one can come up with. If you have real fighting experience you would probably know.

Yep.

There are lots of stupid choregraphy mistakes in TPM; I only mentioned half or so. I can't believe you don't see them

I do see them. The hunched shoulders, the obvious delays, hitting someone elses saber instead of their body, but these are far less obvious than in ROTS or AOTC. Look at the part when Anakin and Obi-wan are just twirling their saber's in front of each other, that was so ridiculous I just had to roll my eyes when I saw it. There was nothing like that in TPM. When I watch AOTC and ROTS it looks to me more like Gillard treated it like a dance and wanted to see just how flashy he could possibly get as opposed to actually choreographing a real fight like he and Ray Park did in TPM. As I've said I like the PT fights better than the OT fights because they really blow things out of proportion like everything else in Star Wars, but there still has to be a certain amount of believability. And whilst I can suspend my disbelief enough in TPM I can't do it in AOTC or ROTS. I'm not saying theyre horrible, but theyre just so obviously choreographed.

If you can't recognize this it is because you aren't yourself a skilled swordfighter

There's no need to get personal.

EDIT: On a side note which I'd like to add though. The only duel in any of the films which I thought was downright horrible was the one in ROTS between Palpatine and Mace. First two of the Jedi don't even defend themselves, and Kit fisto is killed when it would have been so easy for him to have killed palpatine when he left himself completely open. Then Sam Jackson, like in AOTC, really let me down in his swordplay.

 

I bet his breathing problems slowed him down when he was fighting.