Amph Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Constant_shadow, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    You can't name 5 worse episodes? Really? ;)
  2. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    finish your re-watch of the series.

    Then we can start the poll for "most awful TNG trash"
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Sounds like a plan.

    [image=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fuCMaIyb9Zs/Swmq1y4a7gI/AAAAAAAAAdw/EqF6crCLIGY/s400/oscar50.jpg]

    "Ohhh, I lovvvvvvve trashhhhh...!"
  4. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    //fights a stereotypical African tribeswoman to the death with a spear, in trashy celebration!
  5. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

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    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    Really? I think there was a lot potential in the Traveler that was never used, rather like Guinan, in a sense. There were little hints about Guinana's past that were dropped and not really followed up on.
  6. violent-poetry Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2010
    star 1
    ha ha ha i refer to riker as the beard and i totally hate it. sure it makes him look more respectable and grown up, but ugh! and TNG is the awesomenest, i watch it every night. without fail.
  7. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050811053626/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c8/Kmtar.jpg]
    TNG 721: Firstborn
    -Premise: A mysterious family friend encourages Worf's son Alexander to become a warrior.

    -T2Q Comments: Interesting that, with this viewing order having me watch DS9: Blood Oath just prior to this, you get two Klingon-centric episodes back to back. Duras Sisters' name arises again, with a connection/reference back to the DS9 episode they appeared in- crossovertime! ...with Quark? Oddly amusing misdirection in that you assume by being patched through to DS9 it'd be going to Sisko or one of the command staff.

    Interesting that Geordi would be less inclined to alert the Pakleids of something...

    Duras sisters appear in person. Somewhat interesting visual concept to note we're looking at a Bird of Prey commanded by the Duras Sisters staring down the Enterprise-D, given what will take place in Generations.

    Luras pregnant? dunt-dunt-dah!

    So,wait, this episode takes place on stardate 47779.4 while Generations takes place on stardate 48650.1, which means Generations is something like only 7 or 8 months after this episode- was she pregnant when she died in Generations? or is there now an unnamed Duras heir still floating about?

    Unexpected timetravel element- and a grandfather paradox of sorts at that. They sort of gloss over how Future-Alexander manages to get back seeing how he claims this man only allowed him to come back to change the past.

    This continues the Duas presence and evolves the Alexander/Worf subplot as well as essentially giving TNG closure to Alexander. Add in minor connctions to the DS9 episode and I'll go with Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: last appearance of Alexander, Luras and B'Etor on TNG. Same actor who playd Doctor Mora Pol on DS9 plays Future Alexander here- they wre originally hesitant to hire him for the role so soon after that DS9 episode, but were convinced the Klingon makeup would hide the similarities.



    Up next: TNG 722: Bloodlines & TNG 723: Emergence.



    Time Travel Log:

    -TOS: All Our Yesterdays (2700 BC, Sarpedion Ice Age; NCC-1701 crew; from 2268)
    -TOS: All Our Yesterdays (Undefined 17th Century-esque Sarpeidon; NCC-1701 crew; from 2268)
    -TNG: Time's Arrow, part I (1893; NCC-1701-D crew; from 2368)
    -TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever (1930: NCC-1701 crew; from 2267)
    -TOS: Assignment Earth (1968: NCC-1701; from 2268)
    -TOS: Tommorow is Yesterday (1969: NCC-1701; from 2267)
    -ST4: The Voyage Home (1986: The Bounty crew, formerly of NCC-1701; from 2286)
    -TOS: The Tholian Web (2154 (Mirror Universe): NCC-1764 Defiant; from 2268)
    -TOS: The Naked Time (2266: NCC-1701 goes back in time 3 days; from 2266)
    -TNG: Time Squared (2365: Picard goes 6 hours into the past; from 2365)
    -TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise (2366 (Standard & FKW Universes); NCC-1701-C goes forward through a temporal rift; from 2344)
    -TNG: Captain's Holiday (2366; Vorgons; from 27th Century, approx. 2666)
    -TNG: Future Imperfect (False-2383; Will Riker. NCC-1701-D; from 2367)
    -TNG: A Matter of Time (2368; Berlinghoff Rasmussen; from 22nd Century, using 26th Century technology)
    -TNG: Cause and Effect (2368; NCC-1701-D ends up 17 days in the future after timeloop; from 2368)
    -TNG: Time's Arrow, part II (2368; Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens; from 1893)
    -TNG: Firstborn (2371; Alexander; from 2410)
  8. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    An "alright" episode.

    Future events make it less so...the future is always in motion, I guess.

    Good Call on the pregnant bit...it's simply a dropped plot point, as far as I can tell.

    As to the Duras...that young snot who Worf spared in "Redemption" is still out there...there is more to the Duras then the sisters.

    My favorite part of this episode is the festival...seemingly a family friendly event...rich in tradition and custom...adds depth to the savage barbarian stereotype of Klingons.
  9. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Yeah, the festival was a neat little scene- I forgot to comment on that part. I had expected Alexander "taking it too seriously" becoming an issue in the plot, what with the one performer's reaction to Alexander injuring/cutting him.

    The "no contact" performance with the blades was an interesting touch- i took it to represent a notion that a Klingon wouldn't fake-swing to full contact with a Batleth- they'd either go all in or not at all (kinda like the Narn sword on B5 not being placed back in it's sheath until it's drawn blood). I don't know if it's a supported notion or not, but it seems like a Klingon thing to do ;).
  10. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    I think it plays into the "taming" of the Klingon stereotype...it was like a Renaissance Fair...family friendly.
  11. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    True- but it's odd for it to be "family friendly by non-Klingon standards". I don't think "family friendly by Klingon standards" would avoid actual combat.
  12. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    star 5
    But the point was "family friendly"...if you don't do it by human standards, the audience wouldn't get it.

    I understand what you're after, but a proper cultural characterization that makes sense was sacrificed to provide a relate-able "father & son" story in a relate-able environment. Maybe if it was a book, it would've been better served...but this was a Renaissance Fair or circus...in all but location...to serve as a common ground for a human interest story...a father's dreams for his son, and a son's choices which may differ (rarely, but it can happen).

    Moreover, the domestication of Klingons is well underway...their ferocity lost it's fury right around the Klingon Civil War. As the Klingons move into DS9 from here, I started to see them more as "Wookie-like". The writers chuck their blood encrusted legacy for stronger focus on unwavering loyalty and the value of honor.

    In shaping Worfs path, TNG rewrote all Klingons.
  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    While I'm only starting to see some of that, I think there was a definite shift- but it made them a much more fleshed out race.

    I was actually dwelling on that the other day after having watched those two Klingon eps back-to-back and how it seems each successful Trek series took a particular race and sort of developed in the background throughout their run.

    TNG radically developed the Klingons. DS9 took strides to make the Ferengi semi-relatable. I suppose one could say TOS primarily developed Vulcans (Amok, Babel, etc, through the TOS films).

    Voyager "kinda" developed the Borg, but that was more enemy-elaboration than developed culture, but it was largely absent (at least from what I recall, not having seen large chinks of the series). Enterprise also seemed to lack this (though one might make an argument for the Andorians, I suppose, it doesn't feel as prominent as the other examples).
  14. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
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    All true...but "fleshing out" only means they make the species more understandable to us...which means they make them more like us. One thing I could not STAND is DS9 is Quark's mom, because it is the blatant injection of modern issues into a character who has no reason culturally or otherwise to behave as she does.

    And as much as they like to say that Star Trek is about analyzing real world issues through a different lens, you have to maintain a blanket of fantasy and extraordinary or you lose that "lens". I think that was the major reason Enterprise failed...the original premise of the series was to chuck the fantastic and make it be about us getting into space and the human issues in it...it was a late answer to where things like Stargate and Farscape and even B5 were going.

    Except they had brainwashed their audience so well into expectations of local interest stories from men with rubber foreheads, that the shift backfired, and they tried to change it too late to save it from the audience's verdict.

    So perhaps that was Star Trek's winning formula...watered down science fiction to deliver your canned plots that have been rehashed 50 ways in a 51st way. You think you are watching something fantastic, in truth, you're watching an episode of 7th Heaven with a little more makeup to appeal to geeks.
  15. violent-poetry Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2010
    star 1
    i watched this episode with my sister and she did say that it was so very over the top dramatic for a warrior caste. i just gave her and look and said they are klingon. to which she replied okay *as in back away from the crazy overly invested person ah ha ha ha)
  16. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060317194127/memoryalpha/en/images/4/4d/Jason_Vigo.jpg]
    TNG 722: Bloodlines
    -Premise: DaiMon Bok threatens the life of a son Picard never knew he had.

    -T2Q Comments: Bok returns here, making this a semi-sequel to The Battle from Season 1.

    "If I'm not your son, is this person still going to want to kill me?"
    "I doubt it."
    "In that case, you won't mind my saying that I hope you're not my father."

    I don't know what it is, but having Jason pick up that tricorder in medbay, it suddenly strikes me how bulky they look all of a suddrn- I must have been around too many iPhones lately.

    Interesting that, perhaps as a result of the humanizing of the Ferengi on DS9 and the later TNG seasons, that some of the behaviors of the Ferengi from Season 1 (at least this one) is written off as "unstable" by the Ferengi.

    Slightly amusing how Data and Geordi can have a conversation at the rear bridge terminals and Picard can turn around to the helmsman to order them to plot a course without relaying that info- making it assumed the helmsman heard it, yet so often the background extras at those terminals so often seem unaware of the comversations happening even closer to them between the helmsman chair and them.

    The actor playing Bok, for all the occasional Ferengi acting exaggerations, he's actually is creepy several times in that psycho way...heh, "unstable".

    "One thing is clear- you'll never look at your hairline in the same way"

    "15 years ago you took my son away from me". I thought it was 6?

    They say it'll take them 20 mins at warp 9 to get there, but instead suggest the faster method of subspace beaming- so they're able to modify the transporter system to use a technology that was abandoned in R&D by the Federation in less time? It'd probably take me at least 10 min just to hook up my desktop system with all it's perephrials and stuff.

    Even though this follows-up The Battle, it doesn't strike me as particularly necessary to watch that episode to enjoy this one- only the one "6 years" reference and "mind control" reference really connect it and avoid it from otherwise being "a newly introduced villain from Picard's past" perception, especially since Bok is played by a different actor here.

    Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential.

    Trivia: the development of this issue stemmed from a conversation with Stewart on any aspects of his character he felt were unexplored, he commented, "It's always fascinated me that there is this creature running around the universe even now who despises me.".

    I find myself agreeing more with the first half of Moore's comments, who said "I wondered if the world knew or cared if DaiMon Bok came back again. I wasn't a big fan of that or 'The Battle' and I didn't see the point of repeating "Suddenly Human" where we really nailed an interesting arc with Picard having a sort of father/son relationship."


    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20041201191153/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0e/The_conductor.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060105174354/memoryalpha/en/images/f/ff/Data_as_Prospero.jpg]
    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081014084143/memoryalpha/en/images/f/fa/Emergence_circuit_node.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060408232103/memoryalpha/en/images/a/aa/EmergenceJigsaw1.jpg]
    TNG 723: Emergence
    -Premise: A series of puzzling events on and off the holodeck lead the crew of the Enterprise to a surprising conclusion: The ship is creating its own offspring. The crew has to assist with this arduous process to ensure the survival of the emerging lifeform ? and their own.

    -T2Q Comments: I wonder if any other show since TNG has so often gone into literary analysis as they have with their various Shakespeare plays and such. I can't help but think Picard's musings on Prospero's character are meant to reflect the coming end of TNG, with the comments of "an end of an era" and "a final act of creation before the end" (which makes me wonder if this was meant to originally be t
  17. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    6 years ago was "The Battle".

    9 years before that was when Picard killed his son while Captain of the Stargazer.

    6+9=

    Sometimes I think they try too hard to make the dots line up nice and clean.

    Miserable episode, spawned from a miserable first season episode...the premise had merit, both for "The Battle" and this episode...but they delivered in a gutless general dumb audience fashion that makes them weak.

    I particularly liked reading about the original concept for this episode including Picard experiencing "repressed" memories of abandoning his son...that's something tv "now" would drink up big time.

    This is one I shut off when it comes on.


    -----

    I don't know why, but I adore Emergence...perhaps a guilty pleasure...perhaps because it is, as you said 2nd, kind of a "ending" before the ending.

    This is the last time the crew seem to act in "concert", whereas Preemptive Strike is clearly Ro focused, and the finale is Picard.

    It's campy in a TOS way, and it's retread of dozens of similar episodes over the seasons...even as recent as "Masks". However, perhaps it's because it is the "last one" and because it is so connected to the "ship" itself...it has intangible merits. In some way, you could see this as the last time the franchise goes this way...DS9, Voyager, Enterprise always took episodes in this vein and ran character elements through them, even when the entire cast got involved...this is still pure whimsy.

    It is the end of an era in that regard.
  18. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Bloodlines I felt came across a pretty good episode, though- both Stewart and the actor playing Jason give good performances and generally avoid the soap opera cliche possibilities of the scenario (except for maybe one scene), and the actor playing Bok comes across, as I noted, rather creepy at times. I think the connections to The Battle, a far weaker episode, are the only things dragging it down.

    Emergence was difficult to classify- my general rule of thumb for distinguishing between "Good" and "Average" usually starts off with "would I want to watch this again?" before I analyze specifics. And I wouldn't mind rewatching Emergence again at some point- and it's certainly more watchable than most of the other episodes I've labeled Average, and I don't even have any problems with the camp of the episode since it's a holodeck episode, but at the same time that somewhat empty ending really holds it back, IMO.
  19. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Perhaps it is the shallowness of the episode, while still being well performed by the cast, that makes it watchable.

    It's essentially a "season one" type of story...but performed with the collected experience and nuance of 7 years together.

    Dunno...I'm having a hard time defending it...all I know is "Emergence", I'll leave on..."Bloodlines", I'll shut off.
  20. JEDI-SOLO Force Ghost

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    Feb 12, 2002
    star 5
    I would love a new series say 100 yrs after TNG.
  21. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I think it'd be interesting if they did try to "TNG it again" by jumping ahead into a new era to (mostly) establish, though I think a few decades would be sufficient since it wouldn't distance it entirely from the TNG era. Also, if you jump too far ahead, you start getting into the era of timeships which would have to be handled delicately.


    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061003172302/memoryalpha/en/images/e/ed/Maquis_raiders_attack_the_Vetar.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070530163312/memoryalpha/en/images/7/70/Maquis_raider%2C_Preemptive_Strike.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091106235521/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d4/Ro_maquis.jpg]
    TNG 724: Preemptive Strike
    -Premise: Lieutenant Ro is sent undercover to root out a Maquis cell.

    -T2Q Comments: Ro returns- I still greatly wish we had her on DS9 and not Kira. Gul Evek returns as well as the Admiral of All Things Cardassian.

    I wonder if this shield weakness thing is legit or something Ro made up?

    The whole celebration recollection discussion is quite effective and makes me greatly wish we had her on DS9 and not Kira.

    Even though you kinda expect it, Ro's goodbye is emotionally effective.

    Really great episode- though I know the Maquis story is continued in DS9, and I know I was just praising the interwoven storytelling in a previous post, but I do feel disappointed that the Ro/Picard stuff doesn't get another episode (or movie!). Last appearance of Ro.

    Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: Originally titled "The Good Fight" but changed due to similarity to "All Good Things...". Directed by Patrick Stewart- only episode to have been done so without Data as a significant character.

    The use of Klingons, Vulcans and Native Americans as village extras was setup for the cast of Voyager. The instructor of Ro's who defected to the Maquii that she mentions here was intended by the producers to be Chakotay, something that was included in her bio on startrek.com. This was later contradicted by a Voyager episode where a date for his resignation as being 2 years before this episode occurs.



    And now "it's time to put an end to your trek through the stars..."

    Up next: TNG 725/725: All Good Things....
  22. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Preemptive Strike is solid gold awesome...and the character of Ro was deserving of the last piece before the finale...not Wesley or the regular crew or any of the other loose ends...Ro was an evocative, significant, and above all, WELL CRAFTED AND PORTRAYED character. I often think of her as the character from the beginning Tasha Yar "should have" been...but then it would've been Denise Crosby, and it would've sucked. Michelle Forbes made Ro, as much as Ro made Michelle Forbes' career.

    and while I do like Kira quite a bit...I can agree that speculating about Ro on DS9 is an agreeable pastime.

    Anyway, back to the episode...some the best effects of the series. Great leading ideas to DS9/Voyager...and while having Ro in cameo ANYWHERE in the finale would've been awesome...it was a good send off.

    And just to tie into the recent discussion of "Bloodlines"...THIS is Stewart's finest performance as Picard...the emotion, confusion, betrayal, understanding...you can read it all in him...a triumph for the actor in such an element. Not since the end of "Best of Both Worlds" and "Family" is his character on such display...and after this, it comes off as hack effort, particularly in "First Contact".

    Great Ro, Great Picard, great plot...an ending and an ongoing story in one.

    A sure thing for top 25, and likely top 10 episode.
  23. JEDI-SOLO Force Ghost

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    Feb 12, 2002
    star 5
    I forget what happens to Ro at the end of this one?
  24. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    She reveals the trap set by the Federation for the Maquis so that they can flee back into hiding, and leaves Riker behind for the Enterprise to pick up as she leaves to join the Maquis.

    I wasn't arguing Bloodlines as being one of Stewart's finest performances- merely that it was good ;).

    But, yeah, he's excellent here. Halibut posted this screencap in the Amp thread that sums it up:
    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/halibut/vlcsnap-2010-07-14-09h19m05s1.png]

    And I promise I won't be comparing Kira and Ro every chance I get- not fair to the actress, who does have her own moments. And, after this point, somewhat pointless.
  25. JEDI-SOLO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2002
    star 5
    Oh yeah damn how could I forget that!!? I remember feeling betrayed as hell when she did that.