EPISODE 3 : A FALL FROM GRACE / (COMPLETED SCREENPLAY)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by Chiz, Nov 15, 1998.

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  1. Tiker Kotnom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2000
    star 1
    Yes, I like KJA's writing, and I read his Jedi Academy trilogy in the 5th Grade as my first Star Wars novels Obestawa, the sickness Obsession with Star Wars, I'm not only a professer of it, but also a victim It is the study of all Star Wars stuff in general, actually it isn't but it can be considered that. My friend came up with it, at my school, it's not the coolest thing to like :-(, it also brought much ridicule, so we just said Obestawa, Obsessed with Star Wars.
  2. Hathor Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 1998
    star 3
    Jeff, I think I have the quote from Darksaber that you were hunting for. This is from page 364.

    Quote:
    '"Sir," the navigator said, "I've managed to cross-check our position. We've been thrown far outside the solar system in a matter of seconds."'

    Rogue, Stilgar, or whoever was talking about this, with my limited knowledge of hyperspace I don't think a ship traveling by lightspeed can travel this fast and far in a 'few seconds'. Therefor, the Star Destroyers did travel faster then light.
  3. Hathor Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 1998
    star 3
    Jeff, I think I have the quote from Darksaber that you were hunting for. This is from page 364.

    Quote:
    '"Sir," the navigator said, "I've managed to cross-check our position. We've been thrown far outside the solar system in a matter of seconds."'

    Rogue, Stilgar, or whoever was talking about this, with my limited knowledge of hyperspace I don't think a ship traveling by lightspeed can travel this fast and far in a 'few seconds'. Therefor, the Star Destroyers did travel faster then light.
  4. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
  5. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
  6. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Senator Lyn, sorry about the late reply but I kinda glazed over your "weakened Jedi" statements, to which I'll reply with a question...and an answer.

    "What do you do when the music is too loud?"
    You turn it down...which is what Tim Zahn did.

    Actually, this next comment goes out to all of you.

    Yes, you are all absolutely correct. T.Zahn did "weaken" the Jedi. And thank the Force he did. The Jedi, under the reins of plenty of authors one-upping the previous author's renditions, had become RIDICULOUSLY powerful....Take Jeff42's statements for example. Yes, a fleet of I.S.D.s COULD be thrown at faster than light speed away from a planet with just the power of the Force....but the author of this concept never considered the possibility as to whether they SHOULD be. Irresponsible writing IMO. Congratulations Mr. Anderson, You've now made the Jedi so powerful that not even a fleet of the most devastating Battleships in Known space can conquer The Jedi. My firm belief, (and I also believe that this was T.Zahn's intent)was that the Jedi HAD become Omnipotent.

    The next question is: "How can you write a feasible threat to omnipotence?" If anyone can figure that one out, call The Devil....He'd be anxious to hear it.

  7. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Senator Lyn, sorry about the late reply but I kinda glazed over your "weakened Jedi" statements, to which I'll reply with a question...and an answer.

    "What do you do when the music is too loud?"
    You turn it down...which is what Tim Zahn did.

    Actually, this next comment goes out to all of you.

    Yes, you are all absolutely correct. T.Zahn did "weaken" the Jedi. And thank the Force he did. The Jedi, under the reins of plenty of authors one-upping the previous author's renditions, had become RIDICULOUSLY powerful....Take Jeff42's statements for example. Yes, a fleet of I.S.D.s COULD be thrown at faster than light speed away from a planet with just the power of the Force....but the author of this concept never considered the possibility as to whether they SHOULD be. Irresponsible writing IMO. Congratulations Mr. Anderson, You've now made the Jedi so powerful that not even a fleet of the most devastating Battleships in Known space can conquer The Jedi. My firm belief, (and I also believe that this was T.Zahn's intent)was that the Jedi HAD become Omnipotent.

    The next question is: "How can you write a feasible threat to omnipotence?" If anyone can figure that one out, call The Devil....He'd be anxious to hear it.

  8. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Rogue, if you read through the above posts you will find pretty good explanations for how and why the Jedi students were able to "throw" the stardestroyers. In a nutshell it does not have to mean that they can always do it, and thus it is not a superweapon to overcome all obstacles but something very unique that perhaps will never be used again. I think those are good explanations.

    The other side of the coin is that if the Jedi are made so weak, no more than a kind of telepaths, what is the point of the whole idea if they make no difference? The Jedi have to have some significant power even if we can argue about the extent of those. And the fact remains that we can not simply entirely ignore all the previous novels like Zahn tried to do, but only try to modify what we find unreasonable.

    However, Zahn's FAR BIGGER mistake has to do with weakening the New Republic through introducing artificial and exaggerated conflict, and inexplicably reducing the size of the known galaxy to one quarter of the whole. As I explain in detail above, at least the interpretation that the known part of SW galaxy compromises only a quarter of the whole HAS TO BE DISMISSED as it makes no sense on a number of points and contradicts previously established canon. The infighting in the New Republic can be explained through that only a small number out of the hundreds of thousand of members were involved in the conflict... of course we also have to somehow account for why all this was yet again presented as the superweapon/grave threat to the survival of the Republic scenario.
  9. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Rogue, if you read through the above posts you will find pretty good explanations for how and why the Jedi students were able to "throw" the stardestroyers. In a nutshell it does not have to mean that they can always do it, and thus it is not a superweapon to overcome all obstacles but something very unique that perhaps will never be used again. I think those are good explanations.

    The other side of the coin is that if the Jedi are made so weak, no more than a kind of telepaths, what is the point of the whole idea if they make no difference? The Jedi have to have some significant power even if we can argue about the extent of those. And the fact remains that we can not simply entirely ignore all the previous novels like Zahn tried to do, but only try to modify what we find unreasonable.

    However, Zahn's FAR BIGGER mistake has to do with weakening the New Republic through introducing artificial and exaggerated conflict, and inexplicably reducing the size of the known galaxy to one quarter of the whole. As I explain in detail above, at least the interpretation that the known part of SW galaxy compromises only a quarter of the whole HAS TO BE DISMISSED as it makes no sense on a number of points and contradicts previously established canon. The infighting in the New Republic can be explained through that only a small number out of the hundreds of thousand of members were involved in the conflict... of course we also have to somehow account for why all this was yet again presented as the superweapon/grave threat to the survival of the Republic scenario.
  10. Tiker Kotnom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2000
    star 1
    The only way to fight omnipotence is to agree with the omnipotent, therefore there is no reason for the omnipotent to take advantage of omnipotence, thereby reducing there effect as an individual, leading to an uprising against the individual, therefore eliminating their omnipotence. Trust me, I know how to deal with the omnipotent or at least people who believe they once will be, they're my friends . . .
  11. Tiker Kotnom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2000
    star 1
    The only way to fight omnipotence is to agree with the omnipotent, therefore there is no reason for the omnipotent to take advantage of omnipotence, thereby reducing there effect as an individual, leading to an uprising against the individual, therefore eliminating their omnipotence. Trust me, I know how to deal with the omnipotent or at least people who believe they once will be, they're my friends . . .
  12. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, If you read through the other posts in other threads you will find pretty good explanations as to why quite a few people think the Force shouldn't be a "Be all, End all" solution to a conflict. Besides, if they (the Jedi) demonstrated the talent for throwing them(the I.S.D.s), they could do it again.....even if they just threaten to do it, it still represents a superweapon, which is nothing more than a plot crutch. Power perceived is power achieved. Thrawn lived by that axiom...A rather well-received Zahn creation if I'm not mistaken.

    We've discussed the N.R being smaller issue before. (actually the "we've" is a general term meaning that this debate has taken place here before in the thread "New Threats" I believe. ).

    What is the N.R.'s war record?

    Perfect....And it will remain so. We ALL know that in the end the N.R. will triumph and peace will be restored...again, and again(and the lion will lay down with the lamb...Yadda Yadda). Which IMO severely damages your point. What difference does it make as to whether the N.R is weakened or not?...They're STILL gonna win....despite what Tim Zahn may or may not have implied.

    But seriously, Do you really want to read about yet another tired old plot involving yet another Imperial Warlord with a serious case of an over-developed sense of self importance rallying a rag-tag group of not-quite dead yet Imperial wannabes to strike yet another "lethal" blow into the heart of the N.R.?.....or a clean playground for the authors at Del-Rey play in.

    Continuity problems are guaranteed when you involve several authors, each with their own imaginations, writing separate storylines on one main theme.....all at non-subsequent sections of the timeline.

    I'll share a few examples

    During HttE Luke didn't know of any other Jedi besides himself and Leia.----D.Wolverton writes of the witches of Dathomir after HttE.

    In J.A. tril. KJA writes of Leia's becoming Prez...making it impossible to continue her Jedi training...direct contradiction of G.L's implications of her becoming a Full-Fledged Jedi.

    K.Tyers writes of Dev Sibwarra's force talents after HttE is out and thus breaks the same ground as the witches.

    B, Hambley writes of a Jedi Hutt (which I liked BTW) which someone else on this board (I'm sorry I don't recall who) beautifully coined possibly the first Star Wars oxy-moron. (The Hutts are supposedly Force-Blind...according to the Tales of the Jedi Comics).

    There are more. The point that I've tried to make is that Tim Zahn IMO did one heck of a job trying to explain as many discrepancies as possible while at the same time open up new ground for other Star Wars authors to work with...the Unknown regions. So he came up with a discrepacy of his own?...He's human, not perfect, and I've never CLAIMED that he was perfect....he's just my favorite, hence my defence.

    BTW, on your telepaths comment...I'd like to see a "Psychic Friends" tele(phone)path deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber. Or levitate a droid, or blaster-powerpack or anything for that matter across a distance with their mind. Or heal themselves when injured. Or hurl a concussion grenade to a safe distance with his mind. Or translate a foreign tongue through the Force. (All SotP/VotF references) I could go on with more examples as to just how Zahn "really started the Jedi down a path of becoming simple spoon-benders"(which is still a step above telepathy because spoon-bending involves alteration, the hardest "Force talent" to master.)But I won't, I'm done.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-08-99).]
  13. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, If you read through the other posts in other threads you will find pretty good explanations as to why quite a few people think the Force shouldn't be a "Be all, End all" solution to a conflict. Besides, if they (the Jedi) demonstrated the talent for throwing them(the I.S.D.s), they could do it again.....even if they just threaten to do it, it still represents a superweapon, which is nothing more than a plot crutch. Power perceived is power achieved. Thrawn lived by that axiom...A rather well-received Zahn creation if I'm not mistaken.

    We've discussed the N.R being smaller issue before. (actually the "we've" is a general term meaning that this debate has taken place here before in the thread "New Threats" I believe. ).

    What is the N.R.'s war record?

    Perfect....And it will remain so. We ALL know that in the end the N.R. will triumph and peace will be restored...again, and again(and the lion will lay down with the lamb...Yadda Yadda). Which IMO severely damages your point. What difference does it make as to whether the N.R is weakened or not?...They're STILL gonna win....despite what Tim Zahn may or may not have implied.

    But seriously, Do you really want to read about yet another tired old plot involving yet another Imperial Warlord with a serious case of an over-developed sense of self importance rallying a rag-tag group of not-quite dead yet Imperial wannabes to strike yet another "lethal" blow into the heart of the N.R.?.....or a clean playground for the authors at Del-Rey play in.

    Continuity problems are guaranteed when you involve several authors, each with their own imaginations, writing separate storylines on one main theme.....all at non-subsequent sections of the timeline.

    I'll share a few examples

    During HttE Luke didn't know of any other Jedi besides himself and Leia.----D.Wolverton writes of the witches of Dathomir after HttE.

    In J.A. tril. KJA writes of Leia's becoming Prez...making it impossible to continue her Jedi training...direct contradiction of G.L's implications of her becoming a Full-Fledged Jedi.

    K.Tyers writes of Dev Sibwarra's force talents after HttE is out and thus breaks the same ground as the witches.

    B, Hambley writes of a Jedi Hutt (which I liked BTW) which someone else on this board (I'm sorry I don't recall who) beautifully coined possibly the first Star Wars oxy-moron. (The Hutts are supposedly Force-Blind...according to the Tales of the Jedi Comics).

    There are more. The point that I've tried to make is that Tim Zahn IMO did one heck of a job trying to explain as many discrepancies as possible while at the same time open up new ground for other Star Wars authors to work with...the Unknown regions. So he came up with a discrepacy of his own?...He's human, not perfect, and I've never CLAIMED that he was perfect....he's just my favorite, hence my defence.

    BTW, on your telepaths comment...I'd like to see a "Psychic Friends" tele(phone)path deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber. Or levitate a droid, or blaster-powerpack or anything for that matter across a distance with their mind. Or heal themselves when injured. Or hurl a concussion grenade to a safe distance with his mind. Or translate a foreign tongue through the Force. (All SotP/VotF references) I could go on with more examples as to just how Zahn "really started the Jedi down a path of becoming simple spoon-benders"(which is still a step above telepathy because spoon-bending involves alteration, the hardest "Force talent" to master.)But I won't, I'm done.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-08-99).]
  14. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    I do not have the time to continue this fully right now, I will come back to this later (maybe a week).

    For now, please do not dismiss the explanation for why having the Jedi "throw" the ISDs can be explained as reasonable, the point I was making is that the explanation HAS BEEN GIVEN above, addressing the points you make, and I do not feel the need to retype it, as if you want to read it, you can, and address anything in it.

    Zahn went beyond making minor mistakes, he deliberately contradicted a whole stack of features. This is not the same as introducing new features to the SW universe (some of which you mention) with full logical and consistent explanation. The fact remains, it has been established as canon: WORKING AS A GROUP JEDI CAN MOVE A BUNCH OF STARDEDTROYERS.

    I hope you are not suggesting that we simply dimiss most of the existing novels and let Del Rey start all over again! I for one would not buy or read any of such novels.

    What you are suggesting is that the Republic and the Jedi have to be weak because they have to face threats which can destroy them and the major threats are now gone. Thank you for finally agreeing with my point in one of my original messages that Zahn brazenly contradicted SW canon for the sole purpose of this cheap plot device of "weak Republic" allowing them to write more of the same novels we already have (I will not be reading such novels, I already have them, I want something new). The solution is to come up with different plot devices than "the Republic is facing a threat to its survival", this has been done too many times already. The solution IS NOT to contradict canon solely so we can get a rehash of plot ideas that have already been done.

    Stupidity through laziness is not excusable. And Zahn has displayed just that by making the Unknown regions cover three quarters of the SW galaxy. This is especially wrong since the Unknown regions can be located outside of the galaxy rather easily, and besides this is the obvious solution everyone can see. You have not addressed this point.
  15. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    I do not have the time to continue this fully right now, I will come back to this later (maybe a week).

    For now, please do not dismiss the explanation for why having the Jedi "throw" the ISDs can be explained as reasonable, the point I was making is that the explanation HAS BEEN GIVEN above, addressing the points you make, and I do not feel the need to retype it, as if you want to read it, you can, and address anything in it.

    Zahn went beyond making minor mistakes, he deliberately contradicted a whole stack of features. This is not the same as introducing new features to the SW universe (some of which you mention) with full logical and consistent explanation. The fact remains, it has been established as canon: WORKING AS A GROUP JEDI CAN MOVE A BUNCH OF STARDEDTROYERS.

    I hope you are not suggesting that we simply dimiss most of the existing novels and let Del Rey start all over again! I for one would not buy or read any of such novels.

    What you are suggesting is that the Republic and the Jedi have to be weak because they have to face threats which can destroy them and the major threats are now gone. Thank you for finally agreeing with my point in one of my original messages that Zahn brazenly contradicted SW canon for the sole purpose of this cheap plot device of "weak Republic" allowing them to write more of the same novels we already have (I will not be reading such novels, I already have them, I want something new). The solution is to come up with different plot devices than "the Republic is facing a threat to its survival", this has been done too many times already. The solution IS NOT to contradict canon solely so we can get a rehash of plot ideas that have already been done.

    Stupidity through laziness is not excusable. And Zahn has displayed just that by making the Unknown regions cover three quarters of the SW galaxy. This is especially wrong since the Unknown regions can be located outside of the galaxy rather easily, and besides this is the obvious solution everyone can see. You have not addressed this point.
  16. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Who wrote the First Expanded Universe Stories?....Tim Zahn.

    Yeah, He's my favorite S.W. author but don't ever again tell me to "kneel before your God"..I don't care if you were joking or not.

    How many Authors have $#!+canned a large percentage of what he wrote?...Lots.

    And now you consider this post-Thrawn tripe canon...How did it get that way? By taking the reader in a new (read: interesting) direction...In other words, contradictory.

    Did you ever stop to consider that G.L. never went into detail just how much of the Galaxy is Known and how much is Unknown?...In fact, I'm not at all sure he even discussed the topic with anyone....As I've said before, All you have for your basis is what was written before VotF and your own personal extrapolations concerning the age of the overall Star Wars civilization. In terms of the Galaxial view that Luke & Leia were treated to at the end of ESB in no way shape or form EVER indicated that the entire Galaxy was fully (or even more than one quarter of the way) explored, indicating known. I've flown in a DC-10 over Denver, Colorado...doesn't mean I've been there.

    In terms of the E.U. it all originates with T.Zahn's Thrawn Tril. which IMO had it not been written...this Star Wars bandwagon we're all riding never would have come about. Consider the facts...Splinter didn't sell real well. Daley's "Solo" tril, though very well written, didn't sell real well. The Classic Star Wars Comics didn't sell real well. At least in comparison to the current themes. If Discrepancies are the main gist of your arguements,... talk to Tim Zahn himself if it really burns your backside as to what he wrote....or start a new thread along the lines of "Reasons to think Tim Zahn screwed-up the entire sanctity of Star Wars by making the New Republic a bunch of wimps."

    Senator Lyn, No-one "tied" Luke and Mara's legs....re-read it and quote for me where you did....He mentioned tangling cords (in-animate) around their feet(indicating to me that they were spread all around the floor). And that Mara's foot caught in on of the loops when she tried to take a step....And that they extruded out of the floor....No where does T.Zahn imply that something came out and bound their feet(or legs) to the floor.... In terms of Jedi distraction, I'll refer you to the comic series: Tales of the Jedi, the death of Andur Sunrider (Nomi's Husband) represents a classic case in point hitting directly on this topic.... that a Jedi with her concentration focused too narrowly on anything could be her undoing...as was the case with Andur...and he was attacked from behind, from something living...not in-animate, like cords from the floor.

    At any rate...Stilgar.
    I'm done giving examples
    I'm done with trying to give a new slant on the storyline to help you enjoy the novel a little more.
    I'm done arguing this crap because it's obvious that we're BOTH beyond convincing to the contrary.

    You can dismiss the meager examples I've given in terms of discrepancies if you'd like. I'm sure as hell not going to stop you. You're intelligent and well educated, we both know that. You and I also know there are myriads more discrepancies where those that I gave came from, most of which went WAY off on tangents that neither one of us think G.L. intended.

    As far as Tim Zahn re-writing the movies?

    All three looked the same the last time I saw them...

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]
  17. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Who wrote the First Expanded Universe Stories?....Tim Zahn.

    Yeah, He's my favorite S.W. author but don't ever again tell me to "kneel before your God"..I don't care if you were joking or not.

    How many Authors have $#!+canned a large percentage of what he wrote?...Lots.

    And now you consider this post-Thrawn tripe canon...How did it get that way? By taking the reader in a new (read: interesting) direction...In other words, contradictory.

    Did you ever stop to consider that G.L. never went into detail just how much of the Galaxy is Known and how much is Unknown?...In fact, I'm not at all sure he even discussed the topic with anyone....As I've said before, All you have for your basis is what was written before VotF and your own personal extrapolations concerning the age of the overall Star Wars civilization. In terms of the Galaxial view that Luke & Leia were treated to at the end of ESB in no way shape or form EVER indicated that the entire Galaxy was fully (or even more than one quarter of the way) explored, indicating known. I've flown in a DC-10 over Denver, Colorado...doesn't mean I've been there.

    In terms of the E.U. it all originates with T.Zahn's Thrawn Tril. which IMO had it not been written...this Star Wars bandwagon we're all riding never would have come about. Consider the facts...Splinter didn't sell real well. Daley's "Solo" tril, though very well written, didn't sell real well. The Classic Star Wars Comics didn't sell real well. At least in comparison to the current themes. If Discrepancies are the main gist of your arguements,... talk to Tim Zahn himself if it really burns your backside as to what he wrote....or start a new thread along the lines of "Reasons to think Tim Zahn screwed-up the entire sanctity of Star Wars by making the New Republic a bunch of wimps."

    Senator Lyn, No-one "tied" Luke and Mara's legs....re-read it and quote for me where you did....He mentioned tangling cords (in-animate) around their feet(indicating to me that they were spread all around the floor). And that Mara's foot caught in on of the loops when she tried to take a step....And that they extruded out of the floor....No where does T.Zahn imply that something came out and bound their feet(or legs) to the floor.... In terms of Jedi distraction, I'll refer you to the comic series: Tales of the Jedi, the death of Andur Sunrider (Nomi's Husband) represents a classic case in point hitting directly on this topic.... that a Jedi with her concentration focused too narrowly on anything could be her undoing...as was the case with Andur...and he was attacked from behind, from something living...not in-animate, like cords from the floor.

    At any rate...Stilgar.
    I'm done giving examples
    I'm done with trying to give a new slant on the storyline to help you enjoy the novel a little more.
    I'm done arguing this crap because it's obvious that we're BOTH beyond convincing to the contrary.

    You can dismiss the meager examples I've given in terms of discrepancies if you'd like. I'm sure as hell not going to stop you. You're intelligent and well educated, we both know that. You and I also know there are myriads more discrepancies where those that I gave came from, most of which went WAY off on tangents that neither one of us think G.L. intended.

    As far as Tim Zahn re-writing the movies?

    All three looked the same the last time I saw them...

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]
  18. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Galaxies are huge... what else do I have to say. People only go someplace, if someone went there first, or if they think something wothwhile exists there. The known galaxy "grows" for a few reasons... colonization for land, and commerce and resources. If no one ever had an excuse to enter a large and remote area of the galaxy to map it, don't blame them... the risk outweighed the potential gain. I find it completely plausible tat there are areas of space that the Old Republic and Empire never entered.... mapping, conquering, and occupying would take immense time and resources.
  19. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Galaxies are huge... what else do I have to say. People only go someplace, if someone went there first, or if they think something wothwhile exists there. The known galaxy "grows" for a few reasons... colonization for land, and commerce and resources. If no one ever had an excuse to enter a large and remote area of the galaxy to map it, don't blame them... the risk outweighed the potential gain. I find it completely plausible tat there are areas of space that the Old Republic and Empire never entered.... mapping, conquering, and occupying would take immense time and resources.
  20. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth it is really a very simple concept I am presenting. We know that ships can travel across the SW galaxy within weeks. This means that in the tens of thousand of years that the Old Republic existed they would have been able to cross the galaxy hundreds of thousand of times if only one ship was doing it. CONCLUSION: the immediate galaxy would have be explored and it makes no sense too argue that three quarters of it has not been.

    Darth, tell me you can follow and understand the above argument... please I am not going crazy... am I? I mean this is as simple a concept as you can get.

    And Darth, tell me that you have actually read my posts... please. I do agree that there would be some unknown parts of the galaxy because for whatever reason noone was interested in them much, but Zahn is proposing that the known regions occupy ONLY a single quadrant - this is in contradiction to what has been established before.

    Finally, what immense resources are we talking about? This is the same SW universe where people fight for posession of planets, build Death Stars, and sell habitable planets for a premium... isn't it? Don't you think that with the means to reach any point in the galaxy within months in the slowest of ships all of it would be mapped and a LOT of it would be occupied?

    And finally, why not place the unknown regions in the smaller satellite galaxies, especially when you are having problems with logic when you squeeze them inside the main galaxy?

    Yes Rogue, I think the discussion is over on this topic. And yes Zahn is even trying to rewrite the movies, cases in point: one, his claim that Yoda was struggling with moving the X-Wing, whereas Yoda said that to the Force size matters not; two, we see in the movies the Rebel fleet outside of the galaxy, and yet Zahn is trying to argue that they only explored a quarter of it.

    You are proposing that Zahn somehow OWNS the SW novels and you are proposing that he has the right to rewrite the universe and contradict other writers. I STRONGLY DISAPPROVE OF ANY SUCH IDEA. Zahn IS NOT the only good SW novelist. SW novels can survive quite well without Zahn. If people start rewriting the novel series everytime they like, dismissing the older novels, we will end up with a series like ST novels. And it is simple folly to suggest that a rewrite which is in many ways INFERIOR to what it is replacing be accepted. And I guess this concludes what I have to say on all this: AS I SAID BEFORE, IF THEY DISMISS THE CONTINUITY OF THE EXISTING NOVELS WITH SOME SEQUEL MOVIES, I WILL NOT READ OR BUY THE BOOKS. THIS APPLIES EVEN MORE SO IF THEY DO THAT WITH THE NEW DEL REY OR ANY OTHER NOVELS!!!
  21. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth it is really a very simple concept I am presenting. We know that ships can travel across the SW galaxy within weeks. This means that in the tens of thousand of years that the Old Republic existed they would have been able to cross the galaxy hundreds of thousand of times if only one ship was doing it. CONCLUSION: the immediate galaxy would have be explored and it makes no sense too argue that three quarters of it has not been.

    Darth, tell me you can follow and understand the above argument... please I am not going crazy... am I? I mean this is as simple a concept as you can get.

    And Darth, tell me that you have actually read my posts... please. I do agree that there would be some unknown parts of the galaxy because for whatever reason noone was interested in them much, but Zahn is proposing that the known regions occupy ONLY a single quadrant - this is in contradiction to what has been established before.

    Finally, what immense resources are we talking about? This is the same SW universe where people fight for posession of planets, build Death Stars, and sell habitable planets for a premium... isn't it? Don't you think that with the means to reach any point in the galaxy within months in the slowest of ships all of it would be mapped and a LOT of it would be occupied?

    And finally, why not place the unknown regions in the smaller satellite galaxies, especially when you are having problems with logic when you squeeze them inside the main galaxy?

    Yes Rogue, I think the discussion is over on this topic. And yes Zahn is even trying to rewrite the movies, cases in point: one, his claim that Yoda was struggling with moving the X-Wing, whereas Yoda said that to the Force size matters not; two, we see in the movies the Rebel fleet outside of the galaxy, and yet Zahn is trying to argue that they only explored a quarter of it.

    You are proposing that Zahn somehow OWNS the SW novels and you are proposing that he has the right to rewrite the universe and contradict other writers. I STRONGLY DISAPPROVE OF ANY SUCH IDEA. Zahn IS NOT the only good SW novelist. SW novels can survive quite well without Zahn. If people start rewriting the novel series everytime they like, dismissing the older novels, we will end up with a series like ST novels. And it is simple folly to suggest that a rewrite which is in many ways INFERIOR to what it is replacing be accepted. And I guess this concludes what I have to say on all this: AS I SAID BEFORE, IF THEY DISMISS THE CONTINUITY OF THE EXISTING NOVELS WITH SOME SEQUEL MOVIES, I WILL NOT READ OR BUY THE BOOKS. THIS APPLIES EVEN MORE SO IF THEY DO THAT WITH THE NEW DEL REY OR ANY OTHER NOVELS!!!
  22. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    I just don't see the problem. It was never reallly said how big the Star Wars galaxy is... except in Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy where he first presents the galaxy map... he doen't contradict himself does he?
    Yes... tatooine is a rimworld, but that doesn't mean there can not be hundreds of millions of worlds farther out from tattoine. Galaxies are huge... arguably, earth occupies the same space as tattoine... probably even further out. People fear the unknown... they may not want to fly through an uncharted region where navigation is one guess after another.
    I think what Zahn really did, was create a trmendous potential for future dtories right when they were starting to get stale.
  23. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    I just don't see the problem. It was never reallly said how big the Star Wars galaxy is... except in Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy where he first presents the galaxy map... he doen't contradict himself does he?
    Yes... tatooine is a rimworld, but that doesn't mean there can not be hundreds of millions of worlds farther out from tattoine. Galaxies are huge... arguably, earth occupies the same space as tattoine... probably even further out. People fear the unknown... they may not want to fly through an uncharted region where navigation is one guess after another.
    I think what Zahn really did, was create a trmendous potential for future dtories right when they were starting to get stale.
  24. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth I agree with you that Zahn did this to create some "unknown regions" from which he could bering forth new stories. I just disagree that it was a good idea to do it in this way because it does not make any sense, and could only make sense if SW ships were slower by about a factor of a thousand.

    The question I am asking you (and anyone else who can answer it) is whether it is reasonable, or even possible, that for some tens of thousands of years people have not explored three quarters of their galaxy while they could have VERY EASILY done so.

    Next I have to ask: what are we going to do about all those references from other novels which indicate that while there are unexplored sections of the galaxy, most of the galaxy is known? Are we just going to dimiss them? (And to answer your question, I think Zahn may well have contradicted himself. And the most direct reference to the size of the New Republic I can remember, as I mention in one of my posts above, is by KJA in his trilogy where Mon Mothma shows the Carridan ambassador a map of the galaxy. Plus there is a whole stack of references in the other novels which indicate crossing the galaxy, how much is occupied, etc, keep an eye out for them the next time you reread your SW novels )

    Finally, how long do you think this modification from Zahn will stand after the prequel movies come out? I think doing this is asking for trouble because I find it more than likely that the next three movies will just like the first three continue to show fast ships quickly jumping all over the galaxy, across it, and outside of it, and pretty quickly it will become even more untennable to argue for three quarters of unknown regions.

    Finally, does Zahn have an e-mail, etc, where I could write and raise this with him? Right now all that is required is ignoring one paragraph which can be argued was written by mistake.

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 01-09-99).]
  25. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth I agree with you that Zahn did this to create some "unknown regions" from which he could bering forth new stories. I just disagree that it was a good idea to do it in this way because it does not make any sense, and could only make sense if SW ships were slower by about a factor of a thousand.

    The question I am asking you (and anyone else who can answer it) is whether it is reasonable, or even possible, that for some tens of thousands of years people have not explored three quarters of their galaxy while they could have VERY EASILY done so.

    Next I have to ask: what are we going to do about all those references from other novels which indicate that while there are unexplored sections of the galaxy, most of the galaxy is known? Are we just going to dimiss them? (And to answer your question, I think Zahn may well have contradicted himself. And the most direct reference to the size of the New Republic I can remember, as I mention in one of my posts above, is by KJA in his trilogy where Mon Mothma shows the Carridan ambassador a map of the galaxy. Plus there is a whole stack of references in the other novels which indicate crossing the galaxy, how much is occupied, etc, keep an eye out for them the next time you reread your SW novels )

    Finally, how long do you think this modification from Zahn will stand after the prequel movies come out? I think doing this is asking for trouble because I find it more than likely that the next three movies will just like the first three continue to show fast ships quickly jumping all over the galaxy, across it, and outside of it, and pretty quickly it will become even more untennable to argue for three quarters of unknown regions.

    Finally, does Zahn have an e-mail, etc, where I could write and raise this with him? Right now all that is required is ignoring one paragraph which can be argued was written by mistake.

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 01-09-99).]
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