EPISODE 3 : A FALL FROM GRACE / (COMPLETED SCREENPLAY)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by Chiz, Nov 15, 1998.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, Do you mean to tell us that this whole spiel with essay post after essay post you've written all boils down to your discontent with ONE PARAGRAPH?!?...Please say We didn't all waste tremendous time and server space because of this.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]
  2. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, Do you mean to tell us that this whole spiel with essay post after essay post you've written all boils down to your discontent with ONE PARAGRAPH?!?...Please say We didn't all waste tremendous time and server space because of this.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-09-99).]
  3. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Stilgar... there's the galaxy, and there's the "known galaxy." The Galaxy can be alot larger than the known galaxy... especially in one where billions upon billions of worlds exist. It is not unreasonable to think that there are areas farther out from others, or isolated, that no one goes to or have explored, because they are unmapped, and there is no reason to go there. Hyperspace jumps are considered dangerous in SW... blind ones are almost certainly fatal. You can't just point your ship in a dirction and go there. mapping even a hundred worlds would take a tremendous amount of time. Travel would have to be slow because of unknown dangers. Imagine mapping a million....
    Thrawn was able to do this, because he already knew the area.
    The Star Wars universe was still growing when the Empire took over... why couldn't it still be growing with the NR? They're always exploring and pushing out further... all Zahndoes is show how much further to push they have.
    What quotes did Zahn contradict?
  4. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Stilgar... there's the galaxy, and there's the "known galaxy." The Galaxy can be alot larger than the known galaxy... especially in one where billions upon billions of worlds exist. It is not unreasonable to think that there are areas farther out from others, or isolated, that no one goes to or have explored, because they are unmapped, and there is no reason to go there. Hyperspace jumps are considered dangerous in SW... blind ones are almost certainly fatal. You can't just point your ship in a dirction and go there. mapping even a hundred worlds would take a tremendous amount of time. Travel would have to be slow because of unknown dangers. Imagine mapping a million....
    Thrawn was able to do this, because he already knew the area.
    The Star Wars universe was still growing when the Empire took over... why couldn't it still be growing with the NR? They're always exploring and pushing out further... all Zahndoes is show how much further to push they have.
    What quotes did Zahn contradict?
  5. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Ok. Since this is getting us nowhere fast, let's change track a little

    Input the following link in your browser and have a look at a map of the SW galaxy http://www.StarDestroyer.net/Tech/Propulsion/Map.jpg

    I have been told that the map is from ""Behind the Magic" CD from LucasArts (it is an official source, just as official as a TM in the ST universe, for example)."

    Take a look, and now tell me what you all think. And whether any of the explanations I have been offered stand up, and whether if Zahn goes down this path he will contradicted by the movies or some other stuff from Lucas?

    P.S. Darth, as I explain in my original messages mapping would not take long compared to the age of the Republic. Zahn himself said in the description of the map in his original trilogy that all the stars in the galaxy had been accurately mapped. To give you exact quotes, I would have to reread all the novels, perhaps later. Besides, you can always look out for those quotes yourself when you read the novels

    (Image linked by DL)

    [This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 01-09-99).]

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 08-02-1999).]
  6. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Ok. Since this is getting us nowhere fast, let's change track a little

    Input the following link in your browser and have a look at a map of the SW galaxy http://www.StarDestroyer.net/Tech/Propulsion/Map.jpg

    I have been told that the map is from ""Behind the Magic" CD from LucasArts (it is an official source, just as official as a TM in the ST universe, for example)."

    Take a look, and now tell me what you all think. And whether any of the explanations I have been offered stand up, and whether if Zahn goes down this path he will contradicted by the movies or some other stuff from Lucas?

    P.S. Darth, as I explain in my original messages mapping would not take long compared to the age of the Republic. Zahn himself said in the description of the map in his original trilogy that all the stars in the galaxy had been accurately mapped. To give you exact quotes, I would have to reread all the novels, perhaps later. Besides, you can always look out for those quotes yourself when you read the novels

    (Image linked by DL)

    [This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 01-09-99).]

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 08-02-1999).]
  7. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Thanks! That's all I needed to see to confirm that I was right. The galaxy stretches beyond the confines of the map. Who knows how much more isn't shown.... Large clusters can exist outside the center, but because nothing is there to see (yet) it is conveniently left off. Also, look at the outer rim between Endor and Dantooine. Nothing there, is there? Yeah,, there is, but it isn't interesting enough to list. Perhaps this could be the area Zahn referred to. Stilgar, the entire galaxy isn't known and mapped, even novels and RPG supplements before Zahn acknowledge that the Old Republic was expanding at an alarming rate. Well, if everything were mapped and known, where were they expanding to? Example: Dagobah is a newly catalogued planet, and in a galaxy so huge and old, "new" is definitely a relative term.
  8. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Thanks! That's all I needed to see to confirm that I was right. The galaxy stretches beyond the confines of the map. Who knows how much more isn't shown.... Large clusters can exist outside the center, but because nothing is there to see (yet) it is conveniently left off. Also, look at the outer rim between Endor and Dantooine. Nothing there, is there? Yeah,, there is, but it isn't interesting enough to list. Perhaps this could be the area Zahn referred to. Stilgar, the entire galaxy isn't known and mapped, even novels and RPG supplements before Zahn acknowledge that the Old Republic was expanding at an alarming rate. Well, if everything were mapped and known, where were they expanding to? Example: Dagobah is a newly catalogued planet, and in a galaxy so huge and old, "new" is definitely a relative term.
  9. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth, this is something I am waiting to confirm, but I was told by the person from whom I linked the map, that it covers the whole galaxy. This would automatically discount what Zahn said.

    Anyway, until we confrim the above, yes, one could argue that we are only seeing the inner one quarter of the galaxy. However, I do not think this is the case.

    BTW, you are suggesting that we locate the Unknown Regions beyond the edges of the galaxy proper, large clusters (they are called globular clusters, but conatin mostly very old stars), I add satellite galaxies, etc. This would be my own idea, place them outside the galaxy, and leave most of the galaxy in the Known Regions.

    As to expansion, well the SW galaxy has something like 300 billion stars, and even in the Known Regions how many of those are settled or fully explored? Only a tiny fraction, maybe something on the order of a million, that is significantly less than one thousandth of one percent. Lots os places for new adventures for the novels We do not need to give up three quarters of the galaxy for Unknown Regions.

    P.S. Zahn specifically refered to EVERY star in the galaxy being accurately mapped on the Emperor's map in his original trilogy.

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 01-09-99).]
  10. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth, this is something I am waiting to confirm, but I was told by the person from whom I linked the map, that it covers the whole galaxy. This would automatically discount what Zahn said.

    Anyway, until we confrim the above, yes, one could argue that we are only seeing the inner one quarter of the galaxy. However, I do not think this is the case.

    BTW, you are suggesting that we locate the Unknown Regions beyond the edges of the galaxy proper, large clusters (they are called globular clusters, but conatin mostly very old stars), I add satellite galaxies, etc. This would be my own idea, place them outside the galaxy, and leave most of the galaxy in the Known Regions.

    As to expansion, well the SW galaxy has something like 300 billion stars, and even in the Known Regions how many of those are settled or fully explored? Only a tiny fraction, maybe something on the order of a million, that is significantly less than one thousandth of one percent. Lots os places for new adventures for the novels We do not need to give up three quarters of the galaxy for Unknown Regions.

    P.S. Zahn specifically refered to EVERY star in the galaxy being accurately mapped on the Emperor's map in his original trilogy.

    [This message has been edited by Stilgar (edited 01-09-99).]
  11. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    mapped, but not catalogued with general knowledge about each planet. We know that map doesn't cover the entire galaxy because the stars bleed past the edge. Also, two-thirds space is not the same as two-thirds of the galaxy because obviously, the centerof the galaxy is more clustered than the outside. The known parts of the galaxy can be more densely populated with stars than than an are twice as large. Also, all the stars can be "known" through telexcopes, etc, but until they've actually been visited and explored, nothing is known.

    [This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 01-09-99).]
  12. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    mapped, but not catalogued with general knowledge about each planet. We know that map doesn't cover the entire galaxy because the stars bleed past the edge. Also, two-thirds space is not the same as two-thirds of the galaxy because obviously, the centerof the galaxy is more clustered than the outside. The known parts of the galaxy can be more densely populated with stars than than an are twice as large. Also, all the stars can be "known" through telexcopes, etc, but until they've actually been visited and explored, nothing is known.

    [This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 01-09-99).]
  13. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    I guess it depends what you mean by accurately mapped. To me accurately mapped implies accurately enough for hyperspace travel.

    You have to know that galaxies do not have edges, they simply thin out at their borders. So, you will always have some stars "bleeding" past the edge. I agree with you that some parts of the galaxy may have a higher density of habitable systems. The thing is though, that throughout the disk of the galaxy the stars are about the same on average, i.e. you would expect the same number of habitable systems. The center, the bulge, would have older stars, and would in fact be less likely to contain habitable planets. Further, the star density throughout the disk is roughly the same, i.e. averaging out the spiral arms.

    So, for now let's just wait for confrimation whether the map is supposed to represent the whole galaxy or just the center of it.

    BTW, how do you include images in the posts?
  14. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    I guess it depends what you mean by accurately mapped. To me accurately mapped implies accurately enough for hyperspace travel.

    You have to know that galaxies do not have edges, they simply thin out at their borders. So, you will always have some stars "bleeding" past the edge. I agree with you that some parts of the galaxy may have a higher density of habitable systems. The thing is though, that throughout the disk of the galaxy the stars are about the same on average, i.e. you would expect the same number of habitable systems. The center, the bulge, would have older stars, and would in fact be less likely to contain habitable planets. Further, the star density throughout the disk is roughly the same, i.e. averaging out the spiral arms.

    So, for now let's just wait for confrimation whether the map is supposed to represent the whole galaxy or just the center of it.

    BTW, how do you include images in the posts?
  15. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    You know someone who could "officially" answer your question?
    Stilgar... I thought you were a veteran around here. [*img]insert image url here[/*img]
    just remove the asterixes.
  16. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    You know someone who could "officially" answer your question?
    Stilgar... I thought you were a veteran around here. [*img]insert image url here[/*img]
    just remove the asterixes.
  17. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth, I have found one item to settle this, straight off the official SW site, Locations, description of Tatooine from Episode IV:

    A harsh desert world orbiting the twin suns Tatoo I and Tatoo II, this arid planet is covered with sodium-rich deserts, deep rocky canyons, and endless dunes. Located in the remote Outer Rim Territories at the edge of the galaxy, Tatooine is a nexus of hyperspace shipping routes, making the planet's spaceport Mos Eisley a way station for traders. Far from the watchful eyes of the Empire, Tatooine also serves as a haven for frontiersmen such as smugglers, mercenaries, and bounty hunters, as well as the crime lord Jabba the Hutt. Only a few small human settlements and moisture farming communities (such as Anchorhead and Bestine) dot the barren surface of the planet. The deep deserts and wastelands are left to the native Jawas, the nomadic Sand People, and the strange life forms inhabiting remote areas.

    Particularly note the reference to Tatooine being at the edge of the galaxy (not the known galaxy, Known Space, etc, the galaxy itself), just like it is shown on the map. So, it is clear that the map shows the whole galaxy, and the Outer Rim represents the edge of the galaxy. Accordingly the Uknown Regions are located, like I said, outside the galaxy proper, and not like Zahn said inside the galaxy.

    I guess this setlles it, but I will still keep looking for other refrences. I am also quite sure that the same thing may have been mentioned about Tatooine and perhaps other of the planets in some of the novels and perhaps even the movies. Can you remember any references?

    So, I guess Zahn stuffed up. What do you think are we going to do about it? A rewrite of the offending part for the paperback edition of VOTF perhaps?
  18. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Darth, I have found one item to settle this, straight off the official SW site, Locations, description of Tatooine from Episode IV:

    A harsh desert world orbiting the twin suns Tatoo I and Tatoo II, this arid planet is covered with sodium-rich deserts, deep rocky canyons, and endless dunes. Located in the remote Outer Rim Territories at the edge of the galaxy, Tatooine is a nexus of hyperspace shipping routes, making the planet's spaceport Mos Eisley a way station for traders. Far from the watchful eyes of the Empire, Tatooine also serves as a haven for frontiersmen such as smugglers, mercenaries, and bounty hunters, as well as the crime lord Jabba the Hutt. Only a few small human settlements and moisture farming communities (such as Anchorhead and Bestine) dot the barren surface of the planet. The deep deserts and wastelands are left to the native Jawas, the nomadic Sand People, and the strange life forms inhabiting remote areas.

    Particularly note the reference to Tatooine being at the edge of the galaxy (not the known galaxy, Known Space, etc, the galaxy itself), just like it is shown on the map. So, it is clear that the map shows the whole galaxy, and the Outer Rim represents the edge of the galaxy. Accordingly the Uknown Regions are located, like I said, outside the galaxy proper, and not like Zahn said inside the galaxy.

    I guess this setlles it, but I will still keep looking for other refrences. I am also quite sure that the same thing may have been mentioned about Tatooine and perhaps other of the planets in some of the novels and perhaps even the movies. Can you remember any references?

    So, I guess Zahn stuffed up. What do you think are we going to do about it? A rewrite of the offending part for the paperback edition of VOTF perhaps?
  19. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    no rewrite is needed if we say that the unknown regions are on the opposite edge of the galay as tatooine.
  20. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    no rewrite is needed if we say that the unknown regions are on the opposite edge of the galay as tatooine.
  21. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    no rewrite is needed if we say that the unknown regions are on the opposite edge of the galay as tatooine.
  22. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    no rewrite is needed if we say that the unknown regions are on the opposite edge of the galay as tatooine.
  23. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    ... meaning that they are somewhere along the Outer Rim between Endor and Dantooine? You are a stubborn one aren't you... what do I have to do to convince you that Zahn made a mistake?

    Well... I guess this could work, but it would only leave something like a sixth of the galaxy for the Unknown Regions and not the three quarters Zahn claimed. The problem is that just because no major known planets have been located in that area, does not mean they are not there in some other references.

    What about a compromise? Put the Unknown Regions along the very thin edges of the galaxy, beyond the Outer Rim (as has been stated in a number of novels), but include in them a couple of satellite galaxies (those could add up to as much as 20% of the area of the main galaxy, but would tend to not be any further than something like 1.5 to 2 times the diameter of the SW galaxy, and this is a checked scientific fact), then you could also include a lot of the globular clusters (those would tend to have very few normally habitable planets, and those would tend to be very old... some very old powerful cultures perhaps?). All up this could make the Unknown Regions as big as around 30% the number of stars in the main SW galaxy. You would also have all those systems within known regions, which while known would only be mapped and/or very little explored.

    What do you think?

    The thing is that Zahn would have to hear about this, and better before the paperback reprint because if necessary some changes can be made. If he starts placing the Unknown Regions in the main galaxy, I feel that pretty soon, when Lucas notices, all the novels based on that premise will be in trouble, and we do not want that.
  24. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    ... meaning that they are somewhere along the Outer Rim between Endor and Dantooine? You are a stubborn one aren't you... what do I have to do to convince you that Zahn made a mistake?

    Well... I guess this could work, but it would only leave something like a sixth of the galaxy for the Unknown Regions and not the three quarters Zahn claimed. The problem is that just because no major known planets have been located in that area, does not mean they are not there in some other references.

    What about a compromise? Put the Unknown Regions along the very thin edges of the galaxy, beyond the Outer Rim (as has been stated in a number of novels), but include in them a couple of satellite galaxies (those could add up to as much as 20% of the area of the main galaxy, but would tend to not be any further than something like 1.5 to 2 times the diameter of the SW galaxy, and this is a checked scientific fact), then you could also include a lot of the globular clusters (those would tend to have very few normally habitable planets, and those would tend to be very old... some very old powerful cultures perhaps?). All up this could make the Unknown Regions as big as around 30% the number of stars in the main SW galaxy. You would also have all those systems within known regions, which while known would only be mapped and/or very little explored.

    What do you think?

    The thing is that Zahn would have to hear about this, and better before the paperback reprint because if necessary some changes can be made. If he starts placing the Unknown Regions in the main galaxy, I feel that pretty soon, when Lucas notices, all the novels based on that premise will be in trouble, and we do not want that.
  25. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Sounds good to me. BTW, the Galaxy is vey 3D and not 2D as the map suggests.
    Where on the map is the corporate sector?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.