EPISODE 3 : A FALL FROM GRACE / (COMPLETED SCREENPLAY)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by Chiz, Nov 15, 1998.

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  1. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    I think it's obvious from the map that the Outer Rim is not the edge of the galaxy. You can see stars extending all the way to the far right edge of the picture, and they probably go well beyond that. These stars make up Wild Space.

    It's true that Zahn made mistakes with the timeline in his original trilogy. You can't really blame him, though, as he had no way of knowing the prequel timeline back then.

    [This message has been edited by Jeff 42 (edited 01-11-99).]
  2. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    I think it's obvious from the map that the Outer Rim is not the edge of the galaxy. You can see stars extending all the way to the far right edge of the picture, and they probably go well beyond that. These stars make up Wild Space.

    It's true that Zahn made mistakes with the timeline in his original trilogy. You can't really blame him, though, as he had no way of knowing the prequel timeline back then.

    [This message has been edited by Jeff 42 (edited 01-11-99).]
  3. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, In terms of the location of the "Unknown Regions" let's get one thing straight, WE didn't agree to anything. Tim Zahn DID locate them out past the outer rim of the Galaxy...Why don't you just give credit where credit is due?

    And in terms of your newest proposed "screw-up"...I shouldn't have to remind you that the Thrawn Trilogy was written and published before G.L. had any serious plans to even do the prequels. George Lucas holds the power to contradict anything when it comes to his baby, Star Wars, including anything he gave the go-ahead to other authors to write. And you know as well as I that he flexes those muscles often. For all Tim Zahn knew the "Clone Wars" quite possibly HAD taken place 44 years ago, when Honoghr was decimated. Could be that Leia's assumption was simply, wrong and he just simply didn't feel it necessary to clarify that....she is human you know. But enough of that. I also shouldn't have to remind you that this thread, titled "Why the New Republic will fail" hasn't discussed any failures of the New Republic in quite some time. Don't get me wrong though, I really DO enjoy the rants we're all having. Suggestion?...Just so this thread can get back on track, If you want to discuss Tim Zahn's screw-ups, open a thread titled as such...(Only don't use the word "hate" in the title....ask Mon-Cal Warrior, he'll tell you all about it. ) Open it up, I'd do it but you know that I'm a Zahn defender...it'd look kinda odd, ya think? Do it and I'll respond...and you might be surprised, I might agree.
  4. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Stilgar, In terms of the location of the "Unknown Regions" let's get one thing straight, WE didn't agree to anything. Tim Zahn DID locate them out past the outer rim of the Galaxy...Why don't you just give credit where credit is due?

    And in terms of your newest proposed "screw-up"...I shouldn't have to remind you that the Thrawn Trilogy was written and published before G.L. had any serious plans to even do the prequels. George Lucas holds the power to contradict anything when it comes to his baby, Star Wars, including anything he gave the go-ahead to other authors to write. And you know as well as I that he flexes those muscles often. For all Tim Zahn knew the "Clone Wars" quite possibly HAD taken place 44 years ago, when Honoghr was decimated. Could be that Leia's assumption was simply, wrong and he just simply didn't feel it necessary to clarify that....she is human you know. But enough of that. I also shouldn't have to remind you that this thread, titled "Why the New Republic will fail" hasn't discussed any failures of the New Republic in quite some time. Don't get me wrong though, I really DO enjoy the rants we're all having. Suggestion?...Just so this thread can get back on track, If you want to discuss Tim Zahn's screw-ups, open a thread titled as such...(Only don't use the word "hate" in the title....ask Mon-Cal Warrior, he'll tell you all about it. ) Open it up, I'd do it but you know that I'm a Zahn defender...it'd look kinda odd, ya think? Do it and I'll respond...and you might be surprised, I might agree.
  5. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Jeff the Outer Rim IS the edge of the galaxy, read above, it is explained and proven - straight from the official SW site.

    Rogue, our opinions differ... as to what Zahn said, well, all you have to do is read the begining of the discussion to see what people think he said Plus as I said, there is no credit to be given, because placing the Unknown Regions beyond the Outer Rim by itself does not solve things, as there is only a few stars there.

    Also I do not think SW novels are like ST novels, to be contradicted when convinient. I would go for that Zahn stuffed up yet again, and not that Lucas did BTW, the thread ties in nicely as Zahn did try to "make the New Republic fail". So to answer the title of this thread: "because Zahn will make it so"
  6. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Jeff the Outer Rim IS the edge of the galaxy, read above, it is explained and proven - straight from the official SW site.

    Rogue, our opinions differ... as to what Zahn said, well, all you have to do is read the begining of the discussion to see what people think he said Plus as I said, there is no credit to be given, because placing the Unknown Regions beyond the Outer Rim by itself does not solve things, as there is only a few stars there.

    Also I do not think SW novels are like ST novels, to be contradicted when convinient. I would go for that Zahn stuffed up yet again, and not that Lucas did BTW, the thread ties in nicely as Zahn did try to "make the New Republic fail". So to answer the title of this thread: "because Zahn will make it so"
  7. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Tried to make the New Republic fail?!? Now you've removed any doubt in my mind...you're out for blood, plain and simple....Zahn's blood. Last time I read VotF the New Republic was intact at the end, in fact, stronger with the LONG overdue peace treaty with the "dead horse many times beaten back to life" Empire. How exactly did he try to make them fail?!? So he hinted at new threats that even his most mentally confident character was concerned with. BIG DEAL. For God's sake Stilgar, that's not trying to make them fail!!!.... The New Republic is STILL going to win. And the neat thing about it is that Tim Zahn doesn't even work for Del-Rey, and most-likely never will. He gift-wrapped a whole new playground for the folks at Del-Rey to play in...Not for his own sake, No, why would he. It wouldn't help further his pursuit of Star Wars in anyway. He did it for the love of the story. He didn't want to see it DIE with yet another dead horse plot involving some moron from some other long forgotten out-post of the remnants of the Empire who somehow got his hands on a old superweapon that was hidden away for a long time that kills everything, and then decides to kidnap the Jedi Brats with it.

    If you would only take into consideration what other people try to tell you. And BTW, as far as others saying the same thing. The way you worded your beliefs made your posts hard to refute. Hell, even I started to second guess myself....untill I said to hell with it, let's consult directly from the book. Now I invite everyone who thought, as you put it, that Tim Zahn deliberately WEAKENED the New Republic by reducing the relative size of it (arbitrary judgement call) and by making the Unknown regions vast, to re-read VotF and tell me, did Tim Zahn really weaken the New Republic. or simply hint at a threat looming in the VAST Unknown Regions that might possibly mop the floor with them. ALL OF YOU!!!!...Read the covers of ALL the E.U. books for God's sake....name one besides the compendiums that doesn't hint at "something" threatening the New Republic with it's possible destruction. Were THEY trying to weaken the N.R. too? If so they ALL deserve equal bashing on this issue.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-11-99).]
  8. Rogue Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 1998
    star 1
    Tried to make the New Republic fail?!? Now you've removed any doubt in my mind...you're out for blood, plain and simple....Zahn's blood. Last time I read VotF the New Republic was intact at the end, in fact, stronger with the LONG overdue peace treaty with the "dead horse many times beaten back to life" Empire. How exactly did he try to make them fail?!? So he hinted at new threats that even his most mentally confident character was concerned with. BIG DEAL. For God's sake Stilgar, that's not trying to make them fail!!!.... The New Republic is STILL going to win. And the neat thing about it is that Tim Zahn doesn't even work for Del-Rey, and most-likely never will. He gift-wrapped a whole new playground for the folks at Del-Rey to play in...Not for his own sake, No, why would he. It wouldn't help further his pursuit of Star Wars in anyway. He did it for the love of the story. He didn't want to see it DIE with yet another dead horse plot involving some moron from some other long forgotten out-post of the remnants of the Empire who somehow got his hands on a old superweapon that was hidden away for a long time that kills everything, and then decides to kidnap the Jedi Brats with it.

    If you would only take into consideration what other people try to tell you. And BTW, as far as others saying the same thing. The way you worded your beliefs made your posts hard to refute. Hell, even I started to second guess myself....untill I said to hell with it, let's consult directly from the book. Now I invite everyone who thought, as you put it, that Tim Zahn deliberately WEAKENED the New Republic by reducing the relative size of it (arbitrary judgement call) and by making the Unknown regions vast, to re-read VotF and tell me, did Tim Zahn really weaken the New Republic. or simply hint at a threat looming in the VAST Unknown Regions that might possibly mop the floor with them. ALL OF YOU!!!!...Read the covers of ALL the E.U. books for God's sake....name one besides the compendiums that doesn't hint at "something" threatening the New Republic with it's possible destruction. Were THEY trying to weaken the N.R. too? If so they ALL deserve equal bashing on this issue.

    [This message has been edited by Rogue Jedi (edited 01-11-99).]
  9. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Tatooine may only be figurtively at the "edge" of the galaxy. Yeah, it's out there, but think of how big galaxies are. There can be 12 million stars past tatooine, and it would still be at te edge of the galaxy.
  10. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Tatooine may only be figurtively at the "edge" of the galaxy. Yeah, it's out there, but think of how big galaxies are. There can be 12 million stars past tatooine, and it would still be at te edge of the galaxy.
  11. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    When I looked at that map again I realized something. There are stars extending all the way to the right-hand edge of the picture. If you draw a line from either of the right-hand corners to the Deep Core, the distance from the Core to the Outer Rim is about the same as from the Outer Rim to the corner of the map. Therefore, if you extended the map to make it a circle containing both of the right-hand corners, the area of the circle made by the Outer Rim would be about one-fourth the area of the big circle. I think we can end the size debate now.
  12. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    When I looked at that map again I realized something. There are stars extending all the way to the right-hand edge of the picture. If you draw a line from either of the right-hand corners to the Deep Core, the distance from the Core to the Outer Rim is about the same as from the Outer Rim to the corner of the map. Therefore, if you extended the map to make it a circle containing both of the right-hand corners, the area of the circle made by the Outer Rim would be about one-fourth the area of the big circle. I think we can end the size debate now.
  13. Hathor Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 1998
    star 3
    Rogue, you're right. If Zahn was trying to weaken the NR then why didn't he do so in the Thrawn Trilogy. He had the perfect oportunity to do so. A brilliant warlord that out manuvered the NR time and time again. But instead of causing total devistation to the NR he just took out important but not vital planets. Not once in these books do I remember reading of the NR becoming weak and corrupted from the ongoing Thrawn's attacks. If Zahn wanted to weaken the NR why didn't he take out some major planets, frighten the NR members to a panic and make them loose faith in their gov't, and go from there. However, since the NR was able to defeat the Empire and Thrawn was wastefully killed by his bodyguard, the NR actually grew stronger. 1. they beat a brilliant warlord. 2. they brought the Noghri to their side who were once dedicated to the empire. 3. they won with good stratigies, not with some superweapon crap. So in all likelyhood Zahn actually strengthed the NR, not weakened it. I also agree Rogue (gee, this is a first ) that the peace treaty strenthened the NR. In the eyes of its members there is no longer a war taking place. They can relax and not worry about some star destroyer wiping out their planet. And IMO the longeer a devestating war takes place in a state/country, the more the opinion of the government falls. For if this gov't was so powerful why acan't a quick war take place to punish the evil or a peace treaty take place? so IMO this was a deliberate act of strength for the NR that Zahn made.
  14. Hathor Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 1998
    star 3
    Rogue, you're right. If Zahn was trying to weaken the NR then why didn't he do so in the Thrawn Trilogy. He had the perfect oportunity to do so. A brilliant warlord that out manuvered the NR time and time again. But instead of causing total devistation to the NR he just took out important but not vital planets. Not once in these books do I remember reading of the NR becoming weak and corrupted from the ongoing Thrawn's attacks. If Zahn wanted to weaken the NR why didn't he take out some major planets, frighten the NR members to a panic and make them loose faith in their gov't, and go from there. However, since the NR was able to defeat the Empire and Thrawn was wastefully killed by his bodyguard, the NR actually grew stronger. 1. they beat a brilliant warlord. 2. they brought the Noghri to their side who were once dedicated to the empire. 3. they won with good stratigies, not with some superweapon crap. So in all likelyhood Zahn actually strengthed the NR, not weakened it. I also agree Rogue (gee, this is a first ) that the peace treaty strenthened the NR. In the eyes of its members there is no longer a war taking place. They can relax and not worry about some star destroyer wiping out their planet. And IMO the longeer a devestating war takes place in a state/country, the more the opinion of the government falls. For if this gov't was so powerful why acan't a quick war take place to punish the evil or a peace treaty take place? so IMO this was a deliberate act of strength for the NR that Zahn made.
  15. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Yes, there are stars past the edge of the galaxy, and they could be the unknown regions. However, THE PROBLEM is that there are VERY FEW stars past what is termed the edge of the galaxy. They are few, with long distances between them, and because of this perhaps people would not bother with those areas as much as with other parts of the galaxy. Of course the problem is that a small number of stars is not able to support all those vast unknown areas (unless they are mostly empty), and definitely not large powers who control a lot of systems, and Zahn implied the opposite, i.e. the serious threats and powerful enemies, plus the 30 sectors worth of Imperial assets.

    Darth, your explanation does not really fit because edges of a galaxy are defined for a good reason, for all intents and purposes an edge is the place past which there are not a lot of stars as compared to the galaxy proper. There ARE some stars, and when you add them up it could even be in the millions, but the galaxy proper has something like a few hundred billion stars by comparison, vastly greater. Heck, there are even intergalactic stars, stars outside of galaxies altogether (and it would be nice to have a world like that in SW - imagine the skyview at night ), the thing is there are not enough of them for vast, powerful enemies, who control a lot of habitable planets.
  16. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Yes, there are stars past the edge of the galaxy, and they could be the unknown regions. However, THE PROBLEM is that there are VERY FEW stars past what is termed the edge of the galaxy. They are few, with long distances between them, and because of this perhaps people would not bother with those areas as much as with other parts of the galaxy. Of course the problem is that a small number of stars is not able to support all those vast unknown areas (unless they are mostly empty), and definitely not large powers who control a lot of systems, and Zahn implied the opposite, i.e. the serious threats and powerful enemies, plus the 30 sectors worth of Imperial assets.

    Darth, your explanation does not really fit because edges of a galaxy are defined for a good reason, for all intents and purposes an edge is the place past which there are not a lot of stars as compared to the galaxy proper. There ARE some stars, and when you add them up it could even be in the millions, but the galaxy proper has something like a few hundred billion stars by comparison, vastly greater. Heck, there are even intergalactic stars, stars outside of galaxies altogether (and it would be nice to have a world like that in SW - imagine the skyview at night ), the thing is there are not enough of them for vast, powerful enemies, who control a lot of habitable planets.
  17. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    yes, but the area would be a greater size
  18. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    yes, but the area would be a greater size
  19. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Yes, the area could be of a greater size. In fact the area does not really have a SIZE limit as you can keep going out from the galaxy until you hit the next one and perhaps even after that. AREA IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

    However, if you are saying that the greater area would compensate for the number of stars because you would increase the area until you found a sufficient number of stars to rival that of the galaxy proper, THIS IS NOT CORRECT. As again, it all adds up to the FACT that there are only a comparetivaly FEW stars outside of what we define as a galaxy's edge. Which brings us back to where we started: to gather something like maybe up to 20% of the number of stars in the galaxy, you would have to extend the Unknown Regions past the galaxy's edge to the point where you included all the satellite galaxies, and even then YOU WILL NOT have (as Zahn implies - though he can back out of it by saying he was talking about the area and not number of systems) anything near to making the number of stars inside the Outer Rim only a quarter.
  20. Stilgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 1
    Yes, the area could be of a greater size. In fact the area does not really have a SIZE limit as you can keep going out from the galaxy until you hit the next one and perhaps even after that. AREA IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

    However, if you are saying that the greater area would compensate for the number of stars because you would increase the area until you found a sufficient number of stars to rival that of the galaxy proper, THIS IS NOT CORRECT. As again, it all adds up to the FACT that there are only a comparetivaly FEW stars outside of what we define as a galaxy's edge. Which brings us back to where we started: to gather something like maybe up to 20% of the number of stars in the galaxy, you would have to extend the Unknown Regions past the galaxy's edge to the point where you included all the satellite galaxies, and even then YOU WILL NOT have (as Zahn implies - though he can back out of it by saying he was talking about the area and not number of systems) anything near to making the number of stars inside the Outer Rim only a quarter.
  21. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    Just because there would be less stars doesn't mean that there couldn't be any major threats! Size is not the most important thing when determining power. What if they have more advanced technology, or there is a race of Force-users or something like that? It's easy to think up ways that the Unknown Regions could pose a major threat, even though they have less systems than the known galaxy. Zahn did not mess this up in any significant way.
  22. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    Just because there would be less stars doesn't mean that there couldn't be any major threats! Size is not the most important thing when determining power. What if they have more advanced technology, or there is a race of Force-users or something like that? It's easy to think up ways that the Unknown Regions could pose a major threat, even though they have less systems than the known galaxy. Zahn did not mess this up in any significant way.
  23. Hiroko01 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 1998
    star 3
    Nobody ever said that the Old Republic had one continuous straight line of government. China has had one civilization for 5000 years- but they were not, by any stretch of the imagination, governed by the same body. They had some 15 dynasties interspersed by rebellions and periods of warring states- sound familiar? Yet we still look back on it and think of it all as China.

    Ancient Egypt had the same thing. It lasted from about 5,000 BC to 30 AD- another 5,000 year civilization. They had glorious days, and they anarchy and outside rule between those times. One guy, King Tut's father, even tried to change the entire framework that Egypt was based on- their religion- and Egypt survived through that. It was a cataclysmic change, as was the Assyrian invasion- but we still see it all as Ancient Egypt.

    My point through all this is that the Old Republic was probably not a constant Golden Age. It most definitely had takeovers, and invasions, and very dark times, but the Jedi were there to help them out.

    [This message has been edited by Hiroko01 (edited 01-16-99).]
  24. Hiroko01 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 1998
    star 3
    Nobody ever said that the Old Republic had one continuous straight line of government. China has had one civilization for 5000 years- but they were not, by any stretch of the imagination, governed by the same body. They had some 15 dynasties interspersed by rebellions and periods of warring states- sound familiar? Yet we still look back on it and think of it all as China.

    Ancient Egypt had the same thing. It lasted from about 5,000 BC to 30 AD- another 5,000 year civilization. They had glorious days, and they anarchy and outside rule between those times. One guy, King Tut's father, even tried to change the entire framework that Egypt was based on- their religion- and Egypt survived through that. It was a cataclysmic change, as was the Assyrian invasion- but we still see it all as Ancient Egypt.

    My point through all this is that the Old Republic was probably not a constant Golden Age. It most definitely had takeovers, and invasions, and very dark times, but the Jedi were there to help them out.

    [This message has been edited by Hiroko01 (edited 01-16-99).]
  25. Hiroko01 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 1998
    star 3
    Ok, anyway, back to the topic (after having actually read the posts.)

    I tend to agree with Rogue Jedi- "One-way past the Outer Rim" means one-way past the Outer Rim. To me, that seems to mean "outside the galaxy's boundary," which means Magellanic clouds or stars that aren't within the galaxy's boundary.

    Continuing with my analogies to Asia...

    China was an enormous and powerful empire. They could have, quite literally, taken over the entire world- they had the ability. They didn't. Why not? Philosophy. They felt that if their country was governed virtuously, everybody else would join them on their own.

    Unlike the Europeans, the Chinese didn't have to prove how manly they were by going out to explore. If you think about it, there's really no reason to. The Republic probably had enough to deal with already without exploring.

    Asian analogy #2.

    Japan is a little teeny island chain with practically no resources. This didn't stop them during World War II.

    Size matters not. This is straight from the movies, so I hope you won't argue with it.
    Even though there are few stars, they may still have plentiful resources to win. There are asteroids and nebulae that can be mined, etc etc.

    Also, if you think that wars are won by weights of materials, you are HUGELY mistaken. I could point out precedent upon precedent of wars that were won with few materials, but enormous advantages in skills, tactics, and MORALE. Vietnam, the Islamic Jihads, Mongol conquests, the Revolutionary Wars of dozens of countries. Endor, Yavin, the entire Rebellion. You get the idea- materiel is one of the more minor factors in determining a victory.

    -Hiroko
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