*Episode II and the Expanded Universe *

Sorry to pester, Sturm, but on the subject of the Outbound Flight Project:

If I'm recalling correctly, they were probing outside of the galaxy with only sublight engines. [Right?]

My question is, in earlier texts, was the reason for not resorting to hyperdrive simply that since that area had not been charted, gravity forces could not be accurately predicted, and thus, there was a danger of destroying the ship?

Or was the "hyperspace disturbance" referenced most recently in the NJO texts the reason [in the early accounts of the Outbound Flight Project, that is]?

I doubt there's a contradiction, just curious.

 

"Actually Marvel had a very strong continuity. They were also the very first expanded universe books."

Yes, Ghengis is right. The Marvel series' continuity is quite amazing, especially in light of the EU material that has been released more recently. It's amazing that with the amount of material written, more wasn't contradicted (very little was). Still, there is one oddity (one that needs a bit of explaining) in issue 68 of the series.

Fenn Shysa (to Leia Organa): --An' I'm sorry I snapped at ya. Look, maybe we'd get along better if I told ya somethin' o the situation aroun' here, a situation what started long years ago, when I was part of a group o' supercommandos charged with the ultimate protection o' Mandalore. It was a job I was proud of. But when Palpatine made his move to set up a Galactic Empire, the government o' Mandalore sent us inta the Clone Wars on the Emperor's side. An' it was durin' briefin' sessions on the enemies o' the Empire, Princess, that I became acquainted with yer comely features. At any rate, the war was finally won--but at a terrible cost. Of two hundred an' twleve Mandalorian Protectors what went inta battle, only three survived. Our chief officer, who'd become disenchanted with fightin' fer other people, set off on his own an' ended up the canniest bounty hunter in the known worlds. That, o' course, was Boba Fett. The other survivors were meself an' me boyhood chum, Tobbi Dala. Tobbi an' me returned to Mandalore to start over, but we found things had changed durin' our leave. Our homeworld had been overrun by slavers, sanctioned by the Empire, an' they'd turned Mandalore into a conscription center fer slaves needed to work the fact'ries. farms an' mines what kept the Imperial war machine runnin'. That's when me an' Tobbi went underground to form an outlaw band. An' we've been fightin' to give Mandalore back to Mandalorians ever since!"


So...there are a few problems:

A) Boba Fett is a chief officer. He's a bit young, I think, to be chief officer. As Mandalore is a warrior society, and his father has quite the reputation, I'd say it isn't impossible for Boba to have become a commando after the end of AotC. Perhaps he became chief officer after every other Mandalorian got killed?

B) The Clone Wars were where Fenn got acquainted with Leia's looks? Perhaps he meant there's quite the family resemblance between herself and her mother. Certainly Padme was not looked brightly upon by Sidious and Tyranus.

C) The Mandalorians fighting the Jedi on the side of Palpatine during the Clone Wars? Perhaps they knew the real deal behind Palpatine (he being behind the real enemy), or at least they know in hindsight? Perhaps that's why the refer to it as the Empire? They knew they were working for Sidious, who they knew was Palpatine?

Thoughts?

 

Basically, when scouting uncharted territory, an astrogator will make small jumps into hyperspace, called "micro-jumps" - slowly charting as they go.

It's a slow process, but probably what they did. They probably used Jedi Masters because they can live longer than most humans. Jorus himself was over 200, IIRC.

 

So...there are a few problems:

A) Boba Fett is a chief officer. He's a bit young, I think, to be chief officer. As Mandalore is a warrior society, and his father has quite the reputation, I'd say it isn't impossible for Boba to have become a commando after the end of AotC. Perhaps he became chief officer after every other Mandalorian got killed?

I think we can discount that one. Too weird. And these Clone Wars are bertween II and III. Having him in there could mess up his situation if we likely see him in Episode III.

B) The Clone Wars were where Fenn got acquainted with Leia's looks? Perhaps he meant there's quite the family resemblance between herself and her mother. Certainly Padme was not looked brightly upon by Sidious and Tyranus.

This is a stretch, but it's the way I've seen it since I first read the issue in 1999...

"But when Palpatine made his move to set up a Galactic Empire, the government o' Mandalore sent us inta the Clone Wars on the Emperor's side. An' it was durin' briefin' sessions on the enemies o' the Empire, Princess, that I became acquainted with yer comely features. At any rate, the war was finally won--but at a terrible cost."

For the highlighted part, just view it as happening later, when Leia deserts the Imperial Senate. It's possible that Shysa still had enough of an alliegiance with the Empire to get bounty contracts.

C) The Mandalorians fighting the Jedi on the side of Palpatine during the Clone Wars? Perhaps they knew the real deal behind Palpatine (he being behind the real enemy), or at least they know in hindsight? Perhaps that's why the refer to it as the Empire? They knew they were working for Sidious, who they knew was Palpatine?

Very interesting. Hmm. Fighting "on the side of the Emperor..." ( Obviously he's speaking if the title in the present, but he would likely be Chancellor, still, then. )

I have no idea. Anyone else have thoughts and theories?

 

The Outbound Flight Project:
"Information was released, little by little, in the Thrawn trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology. The Essential Chronology says some more."

In addition to those, Dan Wallace strongly believed that C'Baoth's reason in EpI Adventures #1 was the OBFP. And, we learn a bit more to Zahn's twisted puzzle in Red Sky, Blue Flame."

"If I remember correctly... During a stopover near Yaga Minor, they were ambushed by the Chiss..."

Actually, about the Yaga Minor bit. Dark Force Rising labelled Yaga Minor as the Project Departure location (p.44). I think that's where Zahn intended the OBFP to originate from. The problem being that there seems to be two conflicting stories going on. One states that the Emperor's agents were going to destroy the OBFP, and it was Thrawn who destroyed those agents and then the OBFP. Another inserts Thrawn as the one who whacked the OBFP all along. And a final one has Palpatine trying to get Thrawn long before the OBFP. In RSBF, we find out that Thrawn planned his exile all along, engineering his own disgrace. So, one possible theory could be that Palpatine set up the OBFP as the tool to get Thrawn into the Empire. Because Thrawn couldn't honorably accept joining the Empire while still a part of the Chiss Expeditionary Fleet, he had to come up with a way to be dishonorably discharged from duty. That's where the OBFP entered into it.

Mavrick889...
"C) The Mandalorians fighting the Jedi on the side of Palpatine during the Clone Wars? Perhaps they knew the real deal behind Palpatine (he being behind the real enemy), or at least they know in hindsight? Perhaps that's why the refer to it as the Empire? They knew they were working for Sidious, who they knew was Palpatine?"

This was certainly reinforced by the later, "Battle for Mandalore" SWRPG adventure. Mandalore's governor, Vrox was a corrupt cohort of Palpatine. During the Clone Wars, the Mandalorians went on an expansion spree and the Republic was forced to intervene. They sent a Jedi / Republic Army strike force to end the threat of the Mandalorians. The Mandalorians did indeed end up fighting the Jedi. The battle for Mandalore was brutal and deadly to both sides, but in the end, the Jedi won.

 

Thanks all.

 

Maybe the Mandalorian's culture is very war related.Maybe Boba heads to Mandalore after Jango is killed and is trained as a killer.Maybe the children hads some kinda role in the battle.Fett was their comander.

As for the fighting on Palpatine's side remark...Wasn't the REpublic Palpatine's side in the Clone War?Maybe only Palpatine and the governor knew the truth while the mandalorian commandos were kept int he dark.

 

But then there's the various sources that say the Mandalorians were wiped out during these same Clone Wars - by the Jedi, who are definetly on the side of the Republic/Palpatine.

Edit - For now, I like the idea of Shysa, Fett and Dala as all being clones, possibly with false memories flash-imprinted into their minds. This can be an escape route for post-2002 authors if the Jaster Mereel stuff is too unweildy in the prequel era, and that, combined with his Sarlacc escape, can explain his changing personalities and mis-characterizations in the post-ROTJ literature.

 

"But then there's the various sources that say the Mandalorians were wiped out during these same Clone Wars - by the Jedi, who are definetly on the side of the Republic/Palpatine. "

yes,I'm sure that was very confusing for the Mandalorian protectors. Having Jedi fight them when they were supposed to be on their side.

 

Sounds like a scheme of Palpatine/Sidious.

 

Now we're seeing eye to eye.

 

P-B: Regarding Vader's redemption if he had planned Palpy's death all along...his redemption came from saving Luke even though it meant his own death. When Vader learned about Luke's existence (as is illustrated in Shadows of the Empire), he became obsessed (see opening scroll in ESB) with finding Luke. It was his big chance to finally knock off Palpy -- by finding and training his own son. Vader figures to put the 'kid' through his paces and make certain that Luke is up to the challenge. I think Vader was very impatient with Luke in ESB -- he wants him to be better -- to give him a better fight. Vader wanted to rule with Luke at his side. But it was not to be (tissue!)

 

Corran Horn, in the novel I, Jedi has a theory he tells to Luke, that perhaps Vader telling him that he was his father was a covert cry for help in a certain sense...That if Luke turned to his side, they could free him ( Vader ) from Palpatine's grasp.

 

ya but cutting off your sons hand is a HUGE cry for help .......

NES PAS?

 

Vader was always an extreme and impatient man.

 

Double.

 

Merkurian,
Regarding your summary of the rule of two...
"Regarding the "Rule of Two"
It seems like the way the Rule is set up now -and this is supported by EU material via the WotC RPG- that the ONLY way for a Sith Lord to take on an apprentice is the DEATH of one of the two Sith, either by apprentice killing the master, the master killing the apprentice, or an interloper killing one of the two (usually the apprentice) The RotJ novelization & the Marvel comics seem to be in violation of this rule (granted, it didn't exist yet) because on three different occasions, Vader either trained or conspired to train a Sith Apprentice while he himself was an "Apprentice," and the Master yet lived."

Several things to note about Marvel - which actually reinforces the common theories regarding Flint and Lumiya:
1. Marvel never seemed to violate the rule of two.
2. Vader trained an apprentice, but at that time it was in no way, shape or form described as a Sith Apprenticeship. When Vader and Palpatine were alive, Flint was not a Sith.
3. Lumiya was raised on Palpatine's estate. She had been given a multitude of the best training the Empire had to offer, including Force-skills. Again, in no manner did Marvel violate the rule with Lumiya either. When Vader and Palpatine were alive, Lumiya was not a Sith.
4. Marvel was extremely vague in the Sith succession from Vader/Flint and Palpatine/Lumiya.
5. Only after Vader is dead, does Flint appear as the next Dark Lord.
6. Only after Palpatine is dead, does Lumiya appear as the next Dark Lord (Lady).
7. Siths Vader, Palpatine, Flint and Lumiya never all appear at the same time as Sith.
8. The rule of two is unmolested.

I think you make the common mistake of inserting your own opinion of the transference of title/establishment of Sith regarding Marvel's rule of two above and beyond what is officially known about it.

The rule of two, at least in the case of Marvel existed as far back as some 16-17 years ago.

Basically, when you think of Flint and Lumiya, think of the case of learning a language from an instructor. Even though the Language Instructor may know German, Italian, Japenese and French languages. Just because you are "apprenticed" to learn Italian, doesn't mean you instantly know French or German. That's what people seem to think if Vader and Palaptine give any instruction whatsoever to anyone - they instantly have to become a Sith. That's really not logical. We have no idea of the succession details. Perhaps Palpatine forsaw his own death and tiome-dated Lumiya's Sithiness. He could have ordered Lumiya to Korriban to become a Sith while ROTJ was going on. When Palaptine was vanquished, she stepped up. Same goes for Flint. Vader may have told him that as a requirment of Flint's Sithiness, Vader had to die.

Or think of it exactly like the movie case of different Sith at different points in time. In Episode I, Darth Maul is a Sith. In Episode IV-VI, Darth Vader is a Sith. In ROTJ, Darth Vader is a Sith. After ROTJ, Flint is a Sith.

It's no different. One dies and one takes that place. We simply don't know anything except that the rule of two was in force.

 

Quote:
"t seems like the way the Rule is set up now -and this is supported by EU material via the WotC RPG- that the ONLY way for a Sith Lord to take on an apprentice is the DEATH of one of the two Sith,"

I think you may assume too much. The Rule of Two is a rule, not natural law. The universe isn't going to implode if there's a transitional period where there's one or three. This is proven by the fact that there's only one for the ten years between TPM and AOTC, and that Vader and Palpatine were both trying to turn Luke to the dark side, thereby making three. The trick is to immediatly take sides and kill one of them so the rule of two is returned.

 

Agreed, Padme Bra.

 

Lumiya is essentially the Sith-equivalent of Luke as a Jedi.

We have a dying/dead order with the last hope (and another). As opposed to what we know of prior training, the training of this "hope" had to be cut short and narrowly-focused for the order to survive.

Luke was trained solely as a Jedi "sword" - a tool to cut away the evil of Vader/Palpatine and redeem the Jedi. His masters dispensed with all of the trivial nonsense which was not required to accomplish the mission because time and resources were short.

Same with Lumiya. In Lumiya's case, her master sent her to Korriban to learn the arcane ways of the Sith and construct her lightwhip, thereby becoming the next Dark Lord Sith. We know this had to have indeed occured at or around the events of ROTJ. Palpatine had a mental link with his Emperor's Hands, of which Lumiya was one. Therefore, she would have known the instant he was vanquished on the DSII. She would have known when she had to have become the next Sith. Her time was short and her Sith-training was definitely short. But, it was something she had been training her whole life to fill.

In a perfect succession, Vader would have become the Master and Flint his apprentice.

In a perfect succession, Vader would have become the Master and Lumiya his apprentice.

In a perfect succession, Vader would have become the Master and Luke his apprentice.

In a perfect succession, Lumiya would have become the Master and Vader her apprentice.

In a perfect succession, Palpatine would have become the Master and Lumiya his apprentice.

In a perfect succession, Palpatine would have become the Master and Luke his apprentice.

However, the succession was not so perfect and those few remaining - Flint and Lumiya - had to step up and fill roles which they probably weren't necessarily ready to fill if circumstances were different.

 

Merkurian...
"to justify the title she bestowed upon herself"

There's been nothing to suggest she's a self-titled Sith. Quite the contrary - she was sent to become the next Sith by her master. Therefore, the title was traditionally-given, not self-bestowed.

However, yes, you're getting there.

 

Yeah but in TESB it was possible that he was just saying anything to get Luke to join him and the Emperor.