Episode III spoilers forum: Acceptable behavior?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ElfStar, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    Recently I had the displeasure of viewing a most ugly and barbarous treatment of a fellow SW fan in the Ep. III spoilers forum. It can be found in this thread(minor spoilers).

    I have not seen such blatent disregard for the TOS in some time.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, flaming was against the TOS:

    The goal of the Forums is to foster communication and the interchange of ideas within the online Star Wars community. User agrees and acknowledges that any posts, nicknames or other material deemed offensive, harassing, baiting or otherwise inappropriate may be removed at the sole discretion of the administration.

    Rules of Conduct:

    Also, as a general guideline, all users here should respect one another's opinions and beliefs.

    Here are some non-spoiler comments that were directed towards Binary Sunset in that thread:

    "I feel sorry for your parents ....sitting at home thinking if only we had used a condom. "

    "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz this thread is retarded. you didn't like the OT. phone the papers. "

    "You don't want a dark film. You want a soapbox. "

    "Someone spending time discussing a movie they already know they are going to hate is sick. But there's a cure:

    A life, you need."

    "Bitterville, population: Binary_Sunset
    Reservation for Bitter, party of 1 "

    I think we can all agree, as reasonable people, that these remarks are innappropriate, and anyone would be offended if these remarks were made to them. It is a testament that Binary Sunset did not lash out in kind. Still, I was disturbed by the lack of condemnation of these remarks in that thread. There were mods posting in that thread, and a mod locked it, so I know they saw those posts. I am curious why they were neither condemned nor edited out. I am hopeful that those users were at least warned to refrain from their behavior. I trust the mods would not let such behavior go unchecked.

    I think it is important not to question the fanhood of anyone on these boards, and attack arguments, not people. If we do not stem the rise of personal attacks and backbiting, this board will degenerate into a cesspool of obnoxious, AICN-like fanboys. Is that what we want? Is that how we want to be viewed by the public?

    ~ElfStar
  2. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    3SA has been full of rude comments since before I can remember. The best counter-measure is to lead by example of how you should act.

    Also, this thread might interest you.
  3. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    Also, you have to take into consideration the mitigation that some members of the forums take special delight in "baiting" others.

    I quote from the thread:

    "Just another thinly veiled basher thread. You guys never give up. Lost your audience in the other PT forums, eh?"

    Whilst this does not defend flaming (or near-flaming) it is something to consider.

    Perhaps you could take this up with forum moderators over PM?

    UKS
  4. Sam_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    Well, the thread did get locked, ElfStar. And yes, taking to a mod via PM is the best way to go
  5. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    It has long been established that "bashing" threads are not innappropriate as long as they facilitate discussion. Binary did not say "Epzode 3 is gonna suxxors!" He made his argument and presented evidence for his opinion, as is usually done in a debate.

    But that's missing the point. This is not about bashers vs. gushers. I know many gushers who are respectful and mature, and many bashers who are not, and vice versa. The point is a legitimate thread being derailed by immature posters who are breaking the TOS and causing the thread to be locked.
  6. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I read that thread and some of the comments directed towards Binary were definitely flaming/baiting and against the TOS.

    The mod of the TPM forum bases his moderating on moderating BEHAVIOR, NOT opinions. There is a difference.

    Perhaps the 3SA mods could take a page from his book.

    I agree with Elfstar that this is a discussion board and as such, discussion of the movies should be allowed, while discussion/attacks on the posters should not be allowed or tolerated by the mods.

  7. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    I do not believe PMs are in order, because this thread is not so much about a specific thread as it is a larger problem. I am merely using that thread as an example. This thread is about whether this kind of behavior should be allowed to go on.
  8. deltron_zero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2002
    star 6
    I think that quote that UKS mentioned gets at the root of the problem. It does seem that when someone is perceived as a "basher" that other members are almost given a license to rip into them. I can see at least two reasons for this:

    1. The majority of the moderators are not bashers, and while I think they do a fairly good job of remaining unbiased in these debates, they do seem to fall more on the gusher side of the spectrum.

    2. "Bashers" are often very antagonistic and guilty themselves of flaming and baiting, to the point where it is almost expected. But with that said, there are several (Binary Sunset included) who aren't like that, and who are actually great contributors to discussion on these boards.

    So I think a big part of the problem is this tendency to lump all "bashers" together, or even to use these silly labels in the first place. Everyone here is a fan in their own way, and each is worthy of the same respect, until they have shown themselves incapable of giving others the same courtesy. Then they should be dealt with accordingly, regardless of their stance on the prequels.
  9. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    Terrific post, Deltron. I agree, there is a tendancy to lump opponents into one generalized group. This is human nature. That said, it is not an excuse for such behavior, and it should be recognized for what it is. I also ask how anyone here would feel if such comments were directed towards them. Would you view these kinds of statements as fair?
  10. a2dmusic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    star 3
    I think we all agree on that. The question is what to do about it?
  11. Darth_Zidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    Give me a break! That thread was obviously a thinly veiled PT basher post and the author knew it. The bashers are just trying to play games and skirt around the rules (which is that PT bashing belongs elsewhere, at least until EP III nears completion).

    I quote the author of the thread:

    These things are supposed to make the movie dark. They won't. Here's why:

    (edit: Too much of a spoiler reference.)

    Now where in the hell is that discussion supposed to go? You tell me. The whole thread is a bait.

    "Just another thinly veiled basher thread. You guys never give up. Lost your audience in the other PT forums, eh?"

    That was from me, thank you very much. It's the truth.

    This isn't the first time a basher has done this. It's the millionth time. They keep doing it over and over and over and over and over and over again. I'm tired of seeing threads derailed by these guys. They should be banned if they keep it up. They are smart people. They know full well that they are breaking the rules.
  12. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I'm tired of seeing threads derailed by these guys. They should be banned if they keep it up.

    Ironic, considering the source.

    Derailing a thread is a behavior problem, and one that is committed by folks from a variety of ideologies. If there is a *behavioral* problem (which "bashing" is not), contact a mod. If there is a problem of opinion, respectfully disagree or don't post in the thread.
  13. Dread_Pirate_Beezel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 1
    how about just handing out banings for bashers every now and then to keep them going over the line. They need discipline if they wont listen and if they get mad and keep it up ban em for good. Their true feelings will come out regardless of who they try to be! If they acccept the discipline then they will be better for it!
  14. Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 6
    None of the 3SA mods are "bashers" or "gushers". We look for violations of the rules and manage the forum. Some mods are more active than others in the topic discussion, but none of that classifies them as a gusher.

    If you feel someone is crossing the line, send any of the 3SA mods a Private Message. I assure you it will be handled, or at the very least, your inquiry will be looked into and addressed so you have some answer.
  15. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    how about just handing out banings for bashers every now and then to keep them going over the line. They need discipline if they wont listen and if they get mad and keep it up ban em for good. Their true feelings will come out regardless of who they try to be! If they acccept the discipline then they will be better for it!

    And this is pretty much everything a moderator should not do. We moderate behavior, not opinion. The interpersonal problems on this site aren't confined to any particular ideology except for militance - the inability to cope with people with differing opinions.

    I am, and always have been in the mushy middle of the fanbase - there are parts of all the films that I like and dislike, and I will and have stated them publically. As a result, I have been labeled "basher", "gusher", and a few choice words that don't belong on a family-friendly site.

    This site doesn't cater to anyone except for people who enjoy some aspects of the SW universe, be it the movies (one, some, or all), books, or other aspects of the LFL universe. Moderators do not moderate opinion, we moderate behavior. I will not, nor should any moderator, arbitrarily punish someone simply for the sake of keeping them on their toes.

    If you cannot find within yourself a basic respect for another person's opinion, this is not the site for you.

    Edit: 'is' => 'are'
  16. Darth_Zidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    We moderate behavior, not opinion.

    You've misunderstood, so let me try to be clearer. I am not saying that bashing is a bannable offense.

    I'm talking about the bashing of TPM/AOTC in the the 3SA forum. That's out of bounds there, and for good reason. The 3SA is massively popular. If TPM/AOTC basher/gusher/neutral discussions were allowed there, it would fill up with them and the TPM/AOTC forums would become even emptier. The focus is supposed to be EP III.

    I am also not talking about the occasional PT criticism, which is sometimes necessary within the context of the discussion. I'm talking about the chronic bashers who are playing games trying to get around the rules.

    Let the bashers do all they want in the other forums. But not in the 3SA.

    And we all know who these people are. There is really only a handful of them, but they are vocal. The thread in question here wasn't started by an innocent newbie.

    Ironic, considering the source.

    Eh?
  17. deltron_zero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2002
    star 6
    I disagree Zidious. I think that people's opinions (both good and bad) of the PT in general do play a big part in the anticipation of episode III. Afterall, we're dealing with the same characters, the same locations, the same effects technology, and the same general plot curve. Not discussing episode III in light of the previous two installments in the saga just doesn't make much sense to me. Of course, opinions on episodes I or II, or the PT in general don't have a place in every thread, but to say they don't belong in the forum at all frankly strikes me as ridiculous.

    Let the bashers do all they want in the other forums. But not in the 3SA.

    So if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all? Is that it? But only in the 3SA? Look, we can't start telling people what to think or what to like. People are going to have negative opinions of the PT, and they are going to have negative opinions of the spoilers that are coming in. And while you might not agree with their opinion, it doesn't mean that their opinion is meant as a personal affront to you or that it can't be the impetus for great discussion.
  18. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    So are we to understand that threads criticizing what we know of Ep. 3 are not to be allowed? I'm afraid I must disagree with that view.

    If we are to allow discussion of Ep. 3 spoilers and what they mean at all, the critical threads as well as the threads of praise must be allowed. Part of the problem are the terms "basher" and "gusher." I have found in the vast majority of cases these are misnomers. I do not believe Binary Sunset's thread was "bashing" the Ep. 3, it was criticizing it, a key differance.
  19. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Ironic, considering the source.

    Eh?


    You state that you were one of the people who tried to shift conversation away from criticism of Ep. III and onto criticism of the poster who started it. That's derailing the thread (and flame-baiting in my book), and given your stated stance against derailment of threads, that makes it ironic.
  20. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Oddly, this is the second thread in 3SA that seemed to be dedicated to 'bashing' e-3... (and like it or not, you ARE pegged here by the comapany you keep) and I too have noticed a recent influx into the 3SA from active "Bashers Sanctuary" members so like many others, I have a tendancy to be suspicious of the motivations. With the slowdown of the 'other' film boards I guess it was a matter of time before the prequal bashers went in search of more fertile grounds.

    Honestly, I agree with Dehrian's edit: This isn't a discussion. It's proselytization.

    I don't know, it seems the latest 'spoilers' have really divided the SA comunity in general anyway... however, as long as I never have to read about "Nebar" again, I'll be a happy poster... :p
  21. Darth_Zidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    I disagree Zidious.

    Then you are in disagreement with the current 3SA rules.

    ...opinions on episodes I or II, or the PT in general don't have a place in every thread, but to say they don't belong in the forum at all frankly strikes me as ridiculous.

    That's not what I said. Please reread. I'm only talking about those chronic bashers who are playing games. They know what they are doing.

    So if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all?

    I never said that.

    ...and they are going to have negative opinions of the spoilers that are coming in.

    Please reread. I specifically and carefully limited my comments to the bashing of TPM and AOTC, not EP III spoilers. Of course we can criticize those, I do that myself. I'm not nuts! ;)

    So are we to understand that threads criticizing what we know of Ep. 3 are not to be allowed?

    That's not what I said. Please see above.

    I do not believe Binary Sunset's thread was "bashing" the Ep. 3

    The thread was clearly designed to start a basher discussion of AOTC and/or TPM (GS edited out my spoiler sensitive quote, check the actual post). That's the problem with it. And it's not the first. They keep doing it again and again and again (either in new threads or threads already started).

    You state that you were one of the people who tried to shift conversation away from criticism of Ep. III and onto criticism of the poster who started it.

    I never stated that. I don't care about criticism of EP III. Please reread. I clearly singled out TPM/AOTC. That is what that thread was for, and I pointed out the innapropriateness of the thread. It wasn't baiting.

    Let me ask this question: What should be done with those few chronic bashers who keep inserting innapropriate TPM/AOTC discussions into threads where it isn't relevant (in 3SA)?
  22. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I have a tendancy to be suspicious of the motivations.

    Well, they do all report back to me... ;)

    In all seriousness, I think it's just curiousity about the final SW film and honest reaction to the kinds of things to be found in there.
  23. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
    DB, is it too hard to imagine people from the Sanctuary might want to talk about spoilers instead of looking to cause trouble? Does "expressing skepticism" equal "looking to cause trouble" in your mind?
  24. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I never stated that.

    Really? Let me give it a go:

    That was from me, thank you very much. It's the truth.

    +

    I'm tired of seeing threads derailed by these guys.

    =

    Irony. You attack the poster of the 3SA thread and then state that you weren't posting in an off-topic manner (thread derailing).

    Regardless, if a poster is discussing material that is off-topic, contact a moderator. That's what we're here for.

    And what's a "chronic basher?" You speak like it's some kind of pathology or condition, but it's one I've never come across. Are you referring to people with whom you consistently disagree?
  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Breezy you watch for an uptick in frequency of bashers who frequent the PSA?
    And you're suspicious of the motivations? Based on what?

    Bashers are a diverse group of people. Anyone who critiques any part of the PT is a basher. There is rarely specific agreement.

    And they are not a club, group, secret society, off-shoot of the free-masons, etc.

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