Episode III spoilers forum: Acceptable behavior?

Not everything that has been cited as a flame is a flame. It's a counter-opinion. A differing opinion, if presented responsibly, is not a personal attack. If you're not prepared for counter-opinions or debate, then perhaps the 3SA isn't the place for you.

Agreed. However, -


The 3SA is far from what it's being painted as in here. It's fairly tame and enjoyable with a tight-knit group of users.

3SA has one of the worst reputation of hostility, and this reputtation comes from people who visit (or have visited) the forum. This opinion does not come from a "fraction" either. I see EU fans, purist, bashers and gushers all say the same thing. I've seen this the entire 2-1/2 years of my time on these boards, and the spoiler mods have never acknowledge that the forum has an above average problem with hostilities.

Perhaps the word "tight-knit" here is the problem. 3SA is the highest volume of traffic in any forum (or second highest, which gets more, 3SA or YJCC?). If a tight-knit group of spoiler oldbies says the forum is great, that does not reflect the general consensus of the people visiting the forum.

EDIT - Maybe it's just me, but my experiences in 3SA have all been very good.
I find helpful people willing to inform you of any updates in the spoiler world, some great fan art links

I have found 3SA to be a great "just the facts" forum - meaning if you want to find out something or see something, it's a good place to go. It's the debates and discussions that I have concerns about.

 

I'm not asking who was punished, or what the punishment was, but I do want to know, and think it's important for other posters to know, what behaviour is being punished.

Scott2eyez: Thank you, and exactly. It's none of my business who was banned or for how long--it is my business what behavior is OK and what isn't.

Sape:

A differing opinion, if presented responsibly, is not a personal attack. If you're not prepared for counter-opinions or debate, then perhaps the 3SA isn't the place for you. The 3SA is far from what it's being painted as in here. It's fairly tame and enjoyable with a tight-knit group of users.

None of the posts I presented were "responsibly presented" counteropinions--they were attacks on me, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, that I was delusional, that my opinions don't count because I'm a woman (is sexism allowed on TF.N?).

There is nothing "tame" about 3SA--I was almost literally hounded out of there.

What I am inferring from your post is that the opinions of people like me aren't important, and as I am just as good of a user as anyone else on this forum (with quite a bit fewer bans than many users), I resent that.

Sure 3SA is enjoyable--if you are a male who wants to see Anakin Skywalker tortured to death and wants to see Episode III made into a horror film with blood, guts and gore. Expressing an opinion counter to this will get you flamed. I know--it happened to me. No one has any right to tell me that I was wrong to be offended by those remarks--they were directed at me, not anyone else. I didn't choose to leave 3SA--I was driven out of there by people who don't want females who sympathize with Anakin posting there.

No one told me I couldn't post there anymore? Maybe not. But I know a "You're not welcome" message without it having to be spelled out to me. So I have taken my movie discussions to other sites--where the discussion really is tame and enjoyable, and where no one tells me I don't have the right to an opinion because I'm a female, or tells me I'm delusional because I'm an Anakin fan.

 

You're resenting a statement you made up on your own. I didn't say that or even remotely imply that.

 

No, you didn't--you were also not the one who posted the flames directed at me that I posted on a previous page. How am I supposed to feel welcomed there when I am being called delusional, irrational, and being told that I don't know what I'm talking about and that my opinions don't count anyway because I'm a female? And if any of you guys indicated that that behavior wasn't acceptable, I didn't know anything about it. As I said, I don't care what you did to the posters--it's not my business. However, if what was posted towards me is considered OK, as rude and nasty as it was, then you can certainly see why I felt hounded out of there.

I think Stryphe is right and the word "tight-knit" is the problem. There seems to be a club there with the rules "Males only, no Anakin-sympathizers, we want Episode III to be R-rated". Dissenting opinions are met with raging hostility.

 

I welcome you and your opinions, dissenting or not, to the Episode III Spoilers Forum.

 

This thread is filled with complaints, but I've seen no solutions proposed. I've asked for proposed solutions several times, but haven't gotten responses that are specific enough to debate. For those unhappy with 3SA, what are your proposed solutions? Please make it more specific than "the attitude there has to change" or "the rules should be different".

 

I welcome you and your opinions, dissenting or not, to the Episode III Spoilers Forum

Trying to get the favorite prey back in again? I guess the raw meat supply is running out.

For those unhappy with 3SA, what are your proposed solutions?

How about a post at the very top of all the threads, detailing specifically what kind of users you want to see in there? Even if that means being called prejudiced. But at least you would be letting everyone who comes there for the first time what kind of people fit into your group. That way, if they know that they don't have the opinions appropriate to your forum, they won't waste their time, or yours, by posting their thoughts.

That's the only realisitic solution to the problem. It would be better if the moderators of the forum are upfront about what opinions they find acceptable. It's better to exclude from the outset, rather than give any potential user a false sense of security, only to have them pounced on from out of nowhere.

 

Trying to get the favorite prey back in again? I guess the raw meat supply is running out.



Thanks DerthNader...I needed that. Pretty accurate description of how I felt in there too.

Sape himself wasn't responsible for what was said to me--in fact, I think we've agreed in most of our posts--however, I've been posting this here because I wanted all of the moderators to be aware of how certain posters are made to feel in 3SA.

Zidious: I personally don't think DerthNader's solution is a bad idea, given the state of some threads. If I come up with something else, some specific way to change the overall attitude of the forums or tighten the rules, I'll post it.

soitcomestothis: In response to something you said earlier today...

The point is that I was "softer" in my arguments, which I think there is something to be said for, considering I was on the defensive. I didn't single anyone out, and those who flamed me told me that I didn't know what I was talking about or I must have been staring at Hayden instead of watching the movie. If someone said, "All Anakin fans must be staring at Hayden instead of watching the movie", I would be offended, but I wouldn't report it as a flame--I would just argue it to pieces. I would point out that I've been an Anakin fan since Hayden was in diapers. But if something is directed at me, especially something like "You don't know what you're talking about", then I'm going to report it as a flame.

 

This thread is filled with complaints, but I've seen no solutions proposed. I've asked for proposed solutions several times, but haven't gotten responses that are specific enough to debate.

Have you read my more recent posts with Darth Sapient? We came to an agreement that could be called a solution, the only thing it didn't cover was the high level of hostilities, and I made a suggestion on that yesterday in this thread.

 

I think the mods have an accurate handle on what is flaming and what isn't. I have been banned for flaming in other forums simply stating a contrary [unpopular] opinion.

The problem is that most people don't really spend enough time there to really make an accurate assessment of what is really going on. They base their judgements on singular instances, rather then their experience as a whole.


Even the most friendly of posts is rife with sarcasim and playfullness. It is a spoiler board and people are going to be skeptical as well as particular as to what they want to talk about. Remember there are 100's of new nutjobs logging in over there weekly, with false, misleading, trolling posts.


So what if somebody tells you sarcastically that you are not reporting anything new, or that your points are invalid because they go against known facts or spy reports, or it's redundant. Are you that thin skinned that your entire esteem and willingness to post in a forum is relegated around what happened in one particular thread.


You make it sound like people come in to post valid, intersting topics and are shouted at, and every other word is a profanity. That every posters sole mentality is to take time out from their posting to focus on solely ripping you a new one.


It's an internet message board discussion of Star Wars spoilers. It certainly is not a tea party.


Please stop blaming the MODS. I think we have some of the better MODS over at 3Sa and if you posted there regularly you would see how they try hard to make the experience as good as it can be. They are not there to protect your e-feelings.


Through this whole post I have yet to see anyone say the following.


"Ok well after seeing this thread I went over to 3sa. I made an intelligent, relevant, non redundant thread that would ignite discussion and I was flammed out immediatly. Here is what happened. "


If it was the way some of you are describing you would be pointing out some better examples than a meaningless thread that doesn't exist anymore.

 

SOCKIT2ME:

So what if somebody tells you sarcastically that you are not reporting anything new, or that your points are invalid because they go against known facts or spy reports, or it's redundant. Are you that thin skinned that your entire esteem and willingness to post in a forum is relegated around what happened in one particular thread.

Did you read my post a few pages back? I cited specific examples of flames directed at me which were not centered around one particular thread.

Does my esteem depend on it? Hell no. I am not so hard-up for a social life that I have to impress a bunch of people on a message board. I don't care what you think of me personally, I don't care how many names you call me in your own private chats...but I don't think it's too much to ask that we all be polite on a message board. It's not like you don't have time to think before hitting the "post" button.

You make it sound like people come in to post valid, intersting topics and are shouted at, and every other word is a profanity. That every posters sole mentality is to take time out from their posting to focus on solely ripping you a new one.

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens.

It's an internet message board discussion of Star Wars spoilers. It certainly is not a tea party.

Does that mean people are supposed to be nasty?

No one is "blaming" the mods. I am making them aware of how some of us perceive the forum--they may not have been. Considering what I posted a couple of pages back directed at me, and considering the fact that I was banned for 48 hours once for telling a poster to drop the snooty attitude (which I don't personally think was as bad as what was said to me on a previous page), but there were no edits made and as far as I know, no bans given for the posts I listed.

 

Did you read my post a few pages back? I cited specific examples of flames directed at me which were not centered around one particular thread.

Yes and I say maybe a couple at best that even can be construed as a flame. Because people have a negative opinion of you or your viewpoints does not mean that they don't have the right to express them. Just as you and everyone have the right to express positve points. It is in the way that they express them is where the real "FLAME" lies.


If you a bunch of deleted curse words or deeply hateful over the line comments i might agree with you.

But you pointed out:

That's not irredeemable at all, not unless you are far to big an Anakin fan.

What's the problem there?

"Anyways, don't imagine we'll see the Anakin fan club members apologize, but vindication is sweet."

What's so abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane etc. about that?

If Padme questions him, and tells him he is not all powerful (as she did in AotC) she has become a representation of his failures. How is that difficult to understand?"


IS this really a statement you truly feel is worth a banning?





Does that mean people are supposed to be nasty?

no, but by the same time they don't have to cater to each indiviuals level of sensitivity either.

 

Because people have a negative opinion of you or your viewpoints does not mean that they don't have the right to express them.

Yes, it does mean they don't have the right to express a "negative opinion of me", i.e., insult me. That's what "flaming" is.

That's not irredeemable at all, not unless you are far to big an Anakin fan.

What's the problem there?

The intention was to insult Anakin fans.

"Anyways, don't imagine we'll see the Anakin fan club members apologize, but vindication is sweet."

What's so abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane etc. about that?

The entire tone was abusive and hateful and meant to get a rise out of "Anakin fan club members", and "vindication is sweet" could be taken as a threat.

If Padme questions him, and tells him he is not all powerful (as she did in AotC) she has become a representation of his failures. How is that difficult to understand?"


IS this really a statement you truly feel is worth a banning?

The poster talked to me like I was three years old with the "How is that difficult to understand?" Was it worth a banning? Probably not. But it was worth a warning. There is no need to talk to people that way. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

no, but by the same time they don't have to cater to each indiviuals level of sensitivity either.

Why the hell not? Do the rights of rude and nasty people supercede the rights of people who come here for escape and for good discussion?

 

The intention was to insult Anakin fans

And those who aren't necessarily Anakin fans, but who think that a certain plot point could be handled in a better fashion rather than reducing it to something tasteless. As would be my problem, but that's another matter entirely...one which I won't even bother trying to explain in 3SA, as I've already been lumped as a dewy-eyed fangirl.

Oh, and I was flamed, by a certain user outright telling me that I've never read Joseph Campbell, I didn't know what I was talking, and why didn't I just stop hiding behind pretexts, and come right out and admit my ignorance? My responses to that yamkisha was certainly not what I wanted to say, but in his mind, he is God, he is right, so the only thing I could do was admit that I'm a female, and that I don't know anything. He wasn't happy with that, but I wasn't happy at being forced to toss aside my dignity for the sake of stopping an argument. But when the Romans are trying to burn you...

That's why I made my suggestion...open prejudice up front. It's the only solution.

 

Oh, and I was flamed, by a certain user outright telling me that I've never read Joseph Campbell, I didn't know what I was talking, and why didn't I just stop hiding behind pretexts, and come right out and admit my ignorance? My responses to that yamkisha was certainly not what I wanted to say, but in his mind, he is God, he is right, so the only thing I could do was admit that I'm a female, and that I don't know anything. He wasn't happy with that, but I wasn't happy at being forced to toss aside my dignity for the sake of stopping an argument. But when the Romans are trying to burn you...

Oh yeah...had quite a few dealings with that same user, and similar experiences (some of my quotes on the previous page were from that user). I reported him a couple of times, I think one of his posts was edited but nothing else was done, and I gave up--for the same reason. There was no point in arguing, because (in my case) I was being torched for being an Anakin fan, and for not telling him that he is God and that he is Right. I decided he wasn't worth my energy to argue with.

 

If DerthNader and a_g's experiences have taught us anything, it's this:

Don't be that "guy" they are talking about.

 

How about a post at the very top of all the threads, detailing specifically what kind of users you want to see in there?

This is not a solution, since for the 3SA it would read, "everyone willing to follow the TOS is welcome here". And I don't understand how explicitly telling people like anakin_girl that she's not welcome solves her problem. That seems to be the opposite of solving the problem.

Darth-Stryphe:

1) I would propose that simply leaving the argument open ended, acknowledging the opposing opinion and inviting discussion could solve this problem.

That's always good advice but it probably would not have helped in BS's case. If a mod feels that a thread is an off-topic thread in disguise, it will still be locked, even if it follows the rules above. This doesn't really address the issue since BS's initial post was not openly hostile.

2) I simply think a no-tolerance for flaming policy should be in place.

I'm not sure if this differs from the current rules. Perhaps the mods can describe what level of "tolerance" they have for flaming, if any. And part of the problem has been demonstrated in this thread. anakin_girl is convinced that all of her examples are flaming, yet I consider many of them to be OK. Dumb, but OK.

 

This is not a solution, since for the 3SA it would read, "everyone willing to follow the TOS is welcome here"

Let me be more specific, if I'm allowed to be so...I was thinking more along the lines of a post outlining the purpose of the forums, what kind of opinions are tolerated and acceptable, and what topics are open for debate. I don't think that sounds unreasonable at all.

And I don't understand how explicitly telling people like anakin_girl that she's not welcome solves her problem. That seems to be the opposite of solving the problem

It solves the problem for both parties, by keeping the 3SA closed to people who know that they are going to have a contrary opinion to the rest of you. And it keeps your group from having to deal with people you disagree with. Everybody's happy.

 

Zidious: What about "not nice"?

And I do think there is a problem with the definition of flaming, since people disagree on its definition. Maybe there needs to be more explicit rules in place regarding what flaming is. I would start with, rather than "Attack the post not the poster", "Don't attack, period--just argue your points."

DerthNader: And once again I agree--it would keep those of us who express unwelcome or unpopular opinions from beating our heads against the wall. The moderators themselves may welcome our opinions, but when posts like the ones I listed are considered OK, people are still made to feel like open cans of Fancy Feast in a room full of hungry moggies.

 

Anakin Girl: I have to disagree with the "Males only, no Anakin Fans" line. I'm a female, and an Anakin fan. I've had no problems at all, in fact I've had nothing but friendly responses. Maybe it's not the opinion you have, but the way you express it. I don't know, I haven't seen anything in particular that you've posted, to the best of my memory.

EditerthNader : I'm sorry you've had a bad time in 3SA. And the comment about taking off the press on nails was uncalled for. But, sometimes you do have to be "nice" and rise about trolls and flamers. I can see how it would be hard if you are under a full blown attack. I've never had it happen here, but other places if trolls take over and start flaming, I'll just withdraw myself from the conversation. I don't need to deal with that kind of behavior. You and A-G don't have to either.

There's no reason you shouldn't stick to your guns. If you feel strongly about something, by all means go for it! Just remember, trolls will be trolls, no matter who you are. I hope you two will decide to come back and visit 3SA at some point. I'd like to hear your opinions.

 

Maybe it's not the opinion you have, but the way you express it

From what I've noticed of her experiences, and from how I started out with mine, the posts didn't start out angry. But when you start getting jumped on by a few for having a contrary opinion, it's the nature of the beast to get ugly. And I have to wonder if the problem for some of the guys isn't the fact that neither I nor her backed down at first, or just automatically agreed with them. We stuck to our guns, and we weren't conciliatory. We weren't "nice"...in other words, we weren't acting like girls. Well, sorry, I don't much like being stuck in a female body (there's no money in it), so why should my personality be tailored to fit the conventions of the sex?

My initial posts had some elements which one
may call questionable, in that I was openly expressing why some people were almost gleeful in their expression of how a certain plot point might transpire and their absolute, black-and-white insistence that this scene HAD to play out in the movie. But I didn't intend to openly come out and accuse some of the guys of being misogynists. I wanted them to stop and think about what they were saying, and trying to find out why they were so insistent on this particular scene being in Ep. III. But a few of the responses (including the post that I considered to be the beginning of the denouement, one in which a male user told the women to take off their Lee Press-On nails and listen to reason, or somesuch nonsense...it was actually worded much worse than that)made me start to realize, there was something larger going on. I didn't want to believe it...I've tried to give male SW fans the benefit of the doubt, thinking that since they are so fond of a series with some strong chicas, they wouldn't be as likely to view women in such traditional, sometimes derogatory terms. But that's not what I was seeing. What I was seeing was some hidden misogyny, some of it more hostile than a lot of "average" guys who aren't into science-ficition.

My experiences at the 3SA really made me aware of something I didn't want to see. But when you see it, and when it's happening to you, you have to acknowledge the obvious, disheartening as it may be.

 

[image=http://www.starwars.jp/character/image/palpatine.jpg]



I will not allow the 3SA to be split in 2

 

The 3SA is not a pizza...it can be split in two without destroying its flavour.

 

Cheri: DerthNader is right. I don't think my posts were ugly at all, although they may have ended more aggressively than they started because I was being attacked. Sorry, but I don't back down, and I don't become a "yes woman" next to a bunch of guys who think they're gods because they have a Y chromosome, or that because of their Y chromosome, they're the only ones who have a right to be Star Wars fans. (In other words, I don't act like a girl.) And when comments are made like "take off the Lee Press-On Nails and listen to reason", "stop staring at Hayden and watch the movie", or "no one cares what female Star Wars fans think", I am going to get angry. I think that's understandable, and I think I was being nice considering I got faced with these comments.

 

Realize that attacks on the fictional character Anakin Skywalker is not an attack on you.