Episode III spoilers forum: Acceptable behavior?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ElfStar, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    There's already some guidance on Forum Ettiquette for both sides with respect to how this site's been operating for pretty much forever.
      On the side of the "nasties:"
      3. If you are posting stuff just to be mean,
      DON'T. We are all Star Wars fans here...

      5. Most of all, be civil and try to have funOn the side of the "victims:"
      2. No one is targeting you personally. Only if
      someone specifially posts something cruel to you
      about your mother or your heritage, should you
      lash out and get angry.

      4. We all have the right to complain about things
      here and there, but complaining about
      *everything* is rather pointless. You obviously
      don't like Star Wars at all.

      5. Most of all, be civil and try to have fun!/>
  2. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    That's always good advice but it probably would not have helped in BS's case. If a mod feels that a thread is an off-topic thread in disguise, it will still be locked, even if it follows the rules above.

    If so, then that is open prejudgice. The point of the outline I suggested to D.Sap and which he agreed with, was to keep a thread from being inappropriate for the said forum, regardless of the users intent. Ergo, the user would be unable to derail the forum even if they wanted to - using that style. In truth, no one would use that style successful unless they wanted to have an open discussion, so it really does solve the problem. My understanding is that Binary did not follow the suggested style.


    Realize that attacks on the fictional character Anakin Skywalker is not an attack on you.

    Yes, we all have different opinions of chracters and movies. Just because someone says this character is bad or this film is bad is not an attack on people who like said character or film. It's a disagreement. And just because people aren't always tactful in their opinions isn't necessarly a flame, either. What it is, is irritating, but that's a whole other issue.
  3. DerthNader Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 5
    Realize that attacks on the fictional character Anakin Skywalker is not an attack on you

    But insults regarding fake nails, and implicating that a person is a liar (and not intelligent, too) because the other user is convinced YOU didn't read a particular author...those are attacks on the person. Those are personal...just like a PM from one other user who wanted to find out if the reason for my posiition about the disputed topic was because I had been abused. What does that have to do with anything? Nothing, and that's an attack in its own right.
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Realize that attacks on the fictional character Anakin Skywalker is not an attack on you.

    What I mentioned in the post above yours were not attacks on Anakin, Sape. I don't think anyone would accuse Anakin of wearing Lee Press-On Nails, staring at Hayden, or being a female.

    That being said...

    I think being allowed to viciously attack a fictional character the way people attack Anakin (which is worse than any other fictional character on this board is attacked) is downright sophomoric. However, that isn't the point I'm arguing. If the only attacks being made were attacks on Anakin, I wouldn't be posting in this thread.

    Stryphe:

    And just because people aren't always tactful in their opinions isn't necessarly a flame, either. What it is, is irritating, but that's a whole other issue.

    Is there any particular reason why people shouldn't be required to be tactful?

    What I am hearing from people who are arguing against me here is that people should have the right to be rude, and that taking away their right to be rude is taking away their fun. Sorry, but I am not in favor of sticking up for people's right to be rude, mean, and nasty. If not being allowed to be rude, mean and nasty takes away your fun, then you're in desperate need of better ways to entertain yourself. (And for anyone who thinks that statement is directed at them personally: do you enjoy being rude, mean and nasty to people? If not, then that statement was not directed towards you.)
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    anakin_girl...
    "Is there any particular reason why people shouldn't be required to be tactful?"

    Yeah, I think this site's owner wants more than just two or three people to post here. [face_devil]
  6. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    That's a sad commentary on the world, Genghis.

    Believe me, I post at other sites--that's where I do most of my discussion of the films, since it is impossible to do so here without getting flamed unless you hold certain opinions that I don't hold--where tactful people post, and there are more than two or three of them.
  7. JediMAQ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2001
    star 4
    [image=http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-8/TARKIN.JPG]

    Evacuate from the 3SA in our moment of triumph. I think you overestimate the other boards chances.
  8. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    But insults regarding fake nails,--

    :confused: I missed something.


    -- and implicating that a person is a liar (and not intelligent, too) ...

    Well, I was called a liar in this thread repeatedly, and it wasn't ruled as flaming, but then since I was also complimented as being intelligent by the same person, I guess that's what distinquishes the two - so I guess it's only a flame if they say both, DN. ;)


    What I am hearing from people who are arguing against me here is that people should have the right to be rude, and that taking away their right to be rude is taking away their fun.

    If rude isn't flaming - then yeah. However, I wouldn't encourage rudeness, I would discourage it as a principle, just not as a policy. I guess it just depends how rude and in what way. But I wouldn't say rudeness in all forms should be banworthy. Some are, though. For example...

    Trolls=rude
    flamers=rude
    spammers=rude
    flame baiters=rude

    These people need to go away. But some people are just jerks and at the same time don't troll, flame, spam or flame bait. While I wish those people would go away, I don't think it's fair or even practicle to set up a rule to weed them out, because it's a little too subjective.


    So, overall, A_G, I think you're partly right, and I do advocate a strong no-flaming policy for 3SA, but I do think you're definition of flaming is a little stronger than mine.
  9. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    My definition of flaming is stronger than that of a lot of people on this site, but on other sites people generally agree with me. The other sites aren't quite as big, and I didn't feel like I could just complain about this place without making my voice heard where something could be done...as in here, in Coms.

    But some people are just jerks and at the same time don't troll, flame, spam or flame bait. While I wish those people would go away, I don't think it's fair or even practicle to set up a rule to weed them out, because it's a little too subjective.

    I think the mods should warn, ban, etc. people whom they think are being rude, and they should take into account complaints from users. Of course it's going to be somewhat subjective--the mods are humans, not robots. It's not like they can insert a post into some "flaming formula" computer with a checklist and have the computer spit back "yes--flaming--24-hour ban" or "no flaming".
  10. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    I just found out about this thread, so forgive me for chiming in late. As someone who has been critical of 3SA spoilers (and of the film itself should they be true), I've gotten my fair share of rude remarks from other posters. Most commonly I'm told to "get lost" since I'm not a "real" Star Wars fan. I find comments like that very antagonizing, and they do nothing to facilitate a community atmosphere.

    There seems to be a lot of intolerance for dissenting opinion. I understand that a lot of people are really excited about what they're hearing of Episode 3, I just wish they'd be more courteous to those of us who have a more dour outlook.

    On a related note, I also got a lot of flak for criticizing the AOTC DVD's list of features. Ironically, I generally consider myself a "prequel gusher."
  11. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    As someone who has been critical of 3SA spoilers (and of the film itself should they be true), I've gotten my fair share of rude remarks from other posters.

    Sounds like your experience has been similar to mine. I have been accused of doing spoilers "buffet style" because I don't believe every spoiler from every tabloid that prints one, or every spoiler from every person who says "my friend's boyfriend's stepsister's cousin saw Rick McCallum at Starbucks last night and he said..."

    And if some of this gossip that masquerades as spoilers (which also make no sense within the context of the other five films) turns out to be true, I will walk out of Episode III and demand my money back--then I will have a huge bonfire and melt every Star Wars item I own. I have been flamed for saying that, by posters who want to see a horror movie for Episode III, under the guise of posts similar to "But it will be so kewl!"

    You're right. The moderators themselves may not mind dissenting opinion (and I have had good discussion with all six of the moderators regarding Star Wars, in spite of the fact that we do not always agree) but many of the posters do the cyber version of throwing excrement if you are not a "yes man" or "yes woman" there.
  12. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, I've seen how you (and some of the others here) have been treated in the 3SA. That kind of reaction only fosters more ill will towards Star Wars. It can make you very defensive and resentful of the saga. That's my experience, anyway.

    Fanaticism in any form accomplishes little good.
  13. Darth_Zidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    Whine whine whine. So many complaints and so little discussion of what to do about it.

    I've gotten my fair share of rude remarks from other posters.

    When you say things like, "It sounds like a lot of main concepts loosely strung together by bridges of taffy.", it's just a dumb complaint that can't be argued against. We don't yet have enough information to know whether this is true or not. When amorphous complaints like this are inserted into the discussion, it can only lead one place and that place isn't happy. People have to take responsibility for making broad sweeping generalizations that have no basis in fact.

    There seems to be a lot of intolerance for dissenting opinion.

    3SA is full of dissenting opinion.

    anakin_girl, it is now clear to me that your problem is with the movie, not 3SA. Several of George's quotes have warned about the nature of the movie.

    by posters who want to see a horror movie for Episode III, under the guise of posts similar to "But it will be so kewl!"

    If that's their opinion, then it's fine. Your numerous posts in this thread give the impression that you wish to suppress the expression of this opinion by others. You even want to suppress criticism of Anakin.
    ------------------------------
    Darth_Zidious: "Are you saying members should not be allowed to say certain things about Anakin?"

    anakin_girl: "Yes, I am."
    ------------------------------
  14. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    Wow, I'm honored you took enough notice of me to quote from my previous posts. 8-} (I don't mean that sarcastically.)

    I realize some of my comments are a little "colorful," but I'm just expressing my opinion. I'm concerned about the film based on what I'm hearing and it helps to get that off my chest. It's not like I'm casting my negative opinion across the 3SA like a dark cloud or anything. If that were the case, I'd agree I was out of line.

    Truthfully, it makes me sad to be in this position. I want to like Episode 3, but in my eyes, things just aren't looking very good. I don't think I should be stricken from sharing my thoughts in the 3SA just because they're less than rosey, though.
  15. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Whine whine whine. So many complaints and so little discussion of what to do about it.

    Whining about whining is - you know what? Yep, whining. Proposals have been made, but we can't make policy, so propose is all we can do.
  16. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Zidious: Not sure where that quote about bridges of taffy came from, but it wasn't me.

    anakin_girl, it is now clear to me that your problem is with the movie, not 3SA. Several of George's quotes have warned about the nature of the movie.

    Several of George's quotes have also said that Anakin is a complex character, a representation of every man (as in we each have a bit of Vader inside us and it is our choices that keep that from coming out), and that after viewing the prequels, we would feel more sympathetic towards Anakin. If I mention this quote, I get flamed. Ditto if I mention the quote from Hayden that the movie will be much darker but still intended for the same audience. People have countered me with quotes from people whose boyfriend's cousin's girlfriend saw a crew member buying socks at the Gap--and they wonder why I believe my evidence is more valid than theirs.

    If that's their opinion, then it's fine. Your numerous posts in this thread give the impression that you wish to suppress the expression of this opinion by others. You even want to suppress criticism of Anakin.

    I don't care if they hold that opinion--I care that they throw excrement at people who don't. And that's what happens.

    I don't want to suppress criticism of Anakin--however, several people on this site believe that bashing is equal to criticism, and it's not.

    Example of criticism: "Anakin shouldn't have charged Dooku when he did--that was stupid of him." (To which I agree, actually.)

    Example of bashing: "Anakin mass-murders innocent babies and is a psychopath."

    Even still--my main concern, which Genghis has addressed, is that I was told on another site by a lit moderator that the EU forums discourage character-bashing--however, some of the names I've seen Anakin called are sickening. I was more concerned about a double standard than I was about Anakin-bashing itself.

    My honest opinion? Anyone who spends a large amount of time bashing a fictional character the way people bash Anakin are in desperate need of a real-life outlet to vent their hatred upon. Allowing yourself to hate a fictional character that much--enough to flame the daylights out of anyone who defends the character (which has happened to me)--is at best unhealthy.

    And Stryphe is right. This forum is for the purpose of complaining about what we don't like about what goes on.
  17. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    The taffy thing was me. I thought it was a fairly harmless comment (no one even responded to it). It's true that it couldn't really be "argued against," but neither can comments like "Episode 3 is going to be awesome!" It's not meant to be argued, it's just an opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with either one.
  18. Darth_Zidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    but I'm just expressing my opinion.

    No one says you can't. But vague critical generalizations are going to receive a negative response. Specific criticisms can be discussed in a more rational manner.

    I don't think I should be stricken from sharing my thoughts in the 3SA...

    Enough with the straw man already. No one said this.

    ------------

    Proposals have been made...

    There have been no serious proposals made here. Your conversation with Darth Sapient about making "open ended arguments" was not a new idea for a new policy. Sapient was simply expressing common-sense advice. It wasn't some new forum policy.

    ------------

    we would feel more sympathetic towards Anakin.

    I'm still looking for this quote. Do you have a reference?

    "Anakin mass-murders innocent babies and is a psychopath."

    There is nothing wrong with someone expressing that opinion.
  19. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    But vague critical generalizations are going to receive a negative response. Specific criticisms can be discussed in a more rational manner.

    What about vague positive generalizations? How often do you see posts declaring how great E3 is going to be because of "spy report X" or "detail Y?" Is any further explanation needed for those comments? Are those people criticized for their positive reactions? If not, then why can't I simply share my thoughts that "detail Y" gives me a bad impression of the film? Do my views, just because they're not held by the majority, require special treatment? Why should I have to get a "negative response?" It's fine if people want to disagree with me, but it's not simple disagreement that I'm usually met with. And that leads to the next point...

    Enough with the straw man already. No one said this.

    No one has said I shouldn't post my negative opinions in the 3SA? Oh, I assure you, plenty of people have said that to me. As I mentioned before, I'm commonly told to "get lost." And since you're not telling me to keep my comments to myself, what would you have me do? Continue posting as I am and continue to be told to "get lost?"

    Just to be clear, what exactly is your position anyway? Do you acknowledge that there's a problem with the way dissenters are being treated or is it your opinion that the problem is the dissenters themselves?

    As for a solution, I don't think it would be particularly difficult. The moderators just need to be more sensitive to how dissenting opinion is treated. No one should be telling anyone to (again) "get lost." That sort of thing should receive an immediate warning.
  20. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    The reference is in one of two interviews I have with Lucas--one is with Bill Moyers called "The Mythology of Star Wars", the other is in the interviews on my OT tapes. I don't remember which one that statement was in.

    "Anakin mass-murders innocent babies and is a psychopath."

    There is nothing wrong with someone expressing that opinion.


    Yes, there is--for three reasons: One, it is bashing and contributes nothing to the discussion. Two, if I express an opinion opposite that, I get flamed, accused of being a "mass murderer lover", only liking Anakin for his looks, and other various things. Three, if I had to back up my quote from George Lucas, people should have to back up this statement--and for anyone who wants to try, I've got plenty of counterarguments in my arsenal.

  21. JediMAQ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2001
    star 4
    [image=http://atnaboo.virtualave.net/images/palpatine.jpg]

    You Don't need Solutions 3SA...You are the most gifted internet board I have ever seen
  22. DerthNader Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 5
    There have been no serious proposals made here

    Uh, I made a serious proposal, about you guys over there closing the forum only to those who will have positive things to say about the movie. I don't know how you would view it, Mr. Sir...would you call it prejudicial? I'd call it practising honestly what is already taking place, except that users come in there THINKING dissenting opinions will be tolerated. Making it clear up front that you will tolerate no differences of opinion will help go towards easing the gouging and stabbing via words that takes place whenever an adversarial opinion is expressed in there.

    Or, would you prefer that those with differing opinions acknowledge that the flaming majority over there are indeed right? To which I would say, never this side of Hades.
  23. JediMAQ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2001
    star 4
    If there was "one" consensus opinion over there in the 3SA I wish someone would tell me what "it" is. I post over there regurlarly and have yet to stumble across it. What am I doing wrong? I spend hours a day for years on end and they sneak something like that in on me. How did this happen?
  24. Sam_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    One, it is bashing and contributes nothing to the discussion. So? The only place where that is addressed is the Senate.
    Two, if I express an opinion opposite that, I get flamed, accused of being a "mass murderer lover", only liking Anakin for his looks, and other various things. In that case, take it up with an Amd. Three, if I had to back up my quote from George Lucas, people should have to back up this statement--and for anyone who wants to try, I've got plenty of counterarguments in my arsenal.
    It makes sense, but it wouldn't be rule.
  25. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    Darth_Zidious, you used the term "straw man" in your last post, and it made me think that perhaps it might be worthwhile to list and define some common debating practices you see on the boards.

    The Straw Man Argument:
    This is when one person misrepresents, distorts or exaggerates his opponent?s views so as to make them easier to attack.For example:

    Poster A: I think that the lightsaber duels in AOTC should have been longer.

    Poster B: You would like the movies to be one long lightsaber duel with no characterisation. You would ruin Star Wars by turning it into a big video game.


    By exaggerating the Poster A?s argument his opponent hopes to make his views look extreme and stupid; this way Poster B can attack the false argument he himself has created ( his ?straw man?) while avoiding his opponent's real argument.



    Attacking the messenger/character assassination:
    This is when someone chooses to attack the character of a poster rather than the view they are arguing. I think we all understand this one pretty well.



    The Emperor?s New Clothes:
    This is what I call it when one poster suggests that the reason his opponent doesn?t see things the way he does is because that person has an inferior IQ. For example:

    Poster A: The acting and dialogue of AOTC is perfect; a sublime evocation of the serials of yesteryear. Natalie?s repressed facial expressions and controlled vocal inflections work on so many levels.

    Poster B: I thought the acting and dialogue were bad; Portman was more wooden than Pinocchio and Keanu Reeves put together. I'd still hit it though.

    Poster A: How sad you fail to grasp what George is trying to do with the PT. I feel sorry for those people who are so intellectually stunted that they can comprehend the story mechanics only on their basest level.


    Both views are valid opinions; suggesting that if someone doesn't agree with you they must be stupid, well that's just rude and condescending.


    Those three are off the top of my head. I see them used all the time on the boards and I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed, just that it helps to recognise them for what they are. It might be useful to compile a list of these tactics that come up time and time again so we know what we are complaining about.


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