Episode III spoilers forum: Acceptable behavior?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ElfStar, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. foxbatkllr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Binary got what he asked for. That doesn't make the responses right or okay, but he got exactly what he knew he would get.
  2. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    Argumentation is a type of discussion.


    And religious crusades are a type of war.

    I locked the thread for a reason, and I stand by it. It was no different than one person saying, "Your religion is wrong, and mine is right. Convert or I'll shoot you." There was no discussion there, and there was never going to be. There were several people, each passionately trying to convince the others that they alone were right. Baiting, flaming and trolling ensued. We have enough ire in 3SA without inviting unnecessary bashing of the rest of the PT by disguising it as an Ep3 topic.

    You referred to Plato. If the forums were actually capable of having a sancitified discussion worthy of Plato, I might agree with you. But let's face it, that's not going to happen. It's like looking for behavior worthy of St. Augustine in a bar.
  3. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    That was a terribly vague response. How, in particular (besides the flamers) was Binary's opinion of EpIII not allowed by the TOS? He was producing an opinion which, in turn, spurs other's opinions. This is discussion. Secondly, many of us have now asked whether those flamers were warned or banned?
  4. Darth_Zidious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    That was a terribly vague response.

    Dehrian can speak for himself but I thought this part was clear: "...inviting unnecessary bashing of the rest of the PT by disguising it as an Ep3 topic."
  5. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, another false accusation from another member. No more, no less.
  6. DarthBane420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2003
    star 5
    I think I can add to this discussion.
    I spend about 8 hours a day lurking or posting in 3SA, my job allows me the opportunity :D

    The mods do a fantastic job of enforcing the general TOS. Sapient and Sarlacc are always fair, re-active, and stand out in this regard.

    In the thread in question, and many like it, the general users are sick and tired of people dumping on Lucas and the Star Wars series to begin with. The reactions that were cited are both predictable and to be expected. If you come to a Star Wars fan site and bash the movies and the creator of the franchise, people are going to get arsed.

    I also wonder how many times threads are started for the sole purpose of creating drama.
  7. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane,

    As a new (?) member, I ask you if you believe these questions should be asked:

    1. How many times in the years of membership has Binary_Sunset been either banned or warned? I am guessing none.

    2. How many times have any of his threads been locked? I am guessing none.

    3. How many times a month does he post a thread? None. Perhaps one every 3 to 6 months.

    So, here is my pickle. Given that Binary is a stand up member (more so than me ;)) and rarely posts threads on this forum, why would he suddenly decide to post a thread to bait and troll in the EPIII forum?

    Some other questions I find important:

    1. Why would moderators post in a thread full of flames and not warn or ban those members?

    2. Why would a moderator allow a thread to remain open for any length of time if they believe it is a veiled troll thread?

    I don't want to accuse anyone of anything but surely someone agrees something is not right in the EpIII forum.

    EDIT: to be fair, dehrian posted his comments after the serious flames occurred.
  8. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    In the thread in question, and many like it, the general users are sick and tired of people dumping on Lucas and the Star Wars series to begin with. The reactions that were cited are both predictable and to be expected. If you come to a Star Wars fan site and bash the movies and the creator of the franchise, people are going to get arsed.

    Perhaps but that doesn't mean they deserve it. I have seen big fans of the PT post a small critisism and these people have been torn to shreads. The idea that no negativity should be allowed is a short-sighted one. What shouldn't be allowed is brutish, rude and socially ignorant members.
  9. Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    First off, I've been posting here since summer '99, so I think it's safe to say that I know more than most about basher/gusher wars. And as anyone who knows anything about me will testify, I'm about as "gusher" as they come, so I'm not simply posting this out of solidarity for someone who wants to bash a prequel film/trilogy/whatever.

    I think it's nothing short of tragic that it is apparently impossible to have an intelligent critical discussion about Episode III spoilers on TheForce.net's ONLY spoiler-allowed message board without it getting shut down by posters with nothing on-topic to say. If the best that people who disagree with Binary_Sunset's post can respond with are flames, insults and "go and make your own saga then" posts, it makes me ashamed to be a so-called "gusher" and embarassed to be a Star Wars fan in general.

    My only consolation is that this kind of behaviour is much, much rarer in the spoiler-free forums which I frequent.
  10. Cheri Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2000
    star 4
    Isn't that what 3SA is all about? Talking about the plot, tone and quality of the film based on the spoilers coming out?
  11. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Making a few posts here and there outside of your normal forum doesn't mean you aren't subject to the rules of the other forum. As a user, you are responsible for learning the nuances of each forum. In the 3SA, for example, we allow no bashing, gushing, fan clubs, sanctuaries, or appreciation threads. So when we see anything remotely approaching that, we'll lock it.

    To me, this whole thing sounds like a thread got locked and now we're arguing about it. This should have gone to PM with dehrian or whomever was involved. But dehrian is an incredible moderator and I seriously doubt he would have been targting anyone. He's been there longer than any of us and, as such, knows the rules. Please try working it out privately with him. Once you do this and you still feel like you haven't an answer, then come PM me. Thanks. :)
  12. DarthBane420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2003
    star 5
    1. Why would moderators post in a thread full of flames and not warn or ban those members?

    2. Why would a moderator allow a thread to remain open for any length of time if they believe it is a veiled troll thread?


    I can answer both at once.
    See my original post, as I said, Sarlacc and Sapient are excellent, I can't say the same for the rest.
    I won't go into specifics but last week I felt a Mod had some kind of problem with me, I PMed him trying to feel out the situation, and was basically ignored. No response ever came.
    This wouldn't be the first time this kind of thing has happened. A few months ago I shot another of the 3SA mods a message about some trolling and my response was,
    "If people would quit PMing me, I could probably do something about it."
    Well let me tell you I was right arsed after that. I felt like damn, I have taken time to try to get something right on straight, and I get a big cheeky attitude in return.

    The problem in 3SA isn't the rules, they are there, it's just who is modding at a giving time. If it's one of the people I mentioned, the result will always be fair consistent rulings, if not, I would expect the quality of the moderation to drop off quite severely.
  13. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I like that part where you said I'm excellent. Can we forget about everything else and explore that topic?
  14. Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>To me, this whole thing sounds like a thread got locked and now we're arguing about it.

    I think it's got more to do with people who are trying to stay spoiler-free (ie. me) complaining about spoilers getting posted in the Bashers Sanctuary in the TPM forums, and the conversations therefore moving to the only forum where spoilers are allowed to be discussed.

    This isn't about a particular thread being locked, but the fact that if you are less than enamoured by the prequels so far, it is apparently impossible to have a civilised discussion about Episode III (the one that's supposed to answer all the questions and tie the PT to the OT) in the only spoiler forum with any criticism without it being derailed by the internet equivalent of McCarthyism.
  15. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Scott,

    If the best that people who disagree with Binary_Sunset's post can respond with are flames, insults and "go and make your own saga then" posts, it makes me ashamed to be a so-called "gusher" and embarassed to be a Star Wars fan in general.

    Don't apologise. You are one of many outstanding members here. You are level-headed enough to be a gusher and post in the sanctuary without being a troll.


    Cheri,
    Isn't that what 3SA is all about? Talking about the plot, tone and quality of the film based on the spoilers coming out?

    Yes.

    Darth Sapient

    In the 3SA, for example, we allow no bashing, gushing, fan clubs, sanctuaries, or appreciation threads. So when we see anything remotely approaching that, we'll lock it.

    I can understand where you are coming from. However, when you mean no "bashing" or gushing" do you mean no "negativity" or "positivity"? Is this not what these terms mean? Sorry, but I was here when the terms were first introduced (mainly as a lurker) and it seems these terms are quite broad. To ban them would mean 99% of the discussion are void.

    This should have gone to PM with dehrian or whomever was involved. But dehrian is an incredible moderator and I seriously doubt he would have been targting anyone.

    From what I have heard, Binary has tried to handle this problem with dehrian. I also posted a PM to him before I saw this communication asking whether something about those flamers was done.

    Darth Bane,

    See my original post, as I said, Sarlacc and Sapient are excellent, I can't say the same for the rest.
    I won't go into specifics but last week I felt a Mod had some kind of problem with me, I PMed him trying to feel out the situation, and was basically ignored. No response ever came.


    This is what the initial thread seems to be about. People are concerned about how the EpIII forum is being run. I am not saying that every mod is out to get anyone but can't someone get off there arse and see that in THIS case members were allowed to flame and be rude without anyone stepping in? I also think the criteria for discussion should be established a bit more clearly. There seems to be something a bit wrong going on and I think it should be cleared up.









  16. royalguard96 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    There seems to be something a bit wrong going on and I think it should be cleared up.

    Would you honestly feel the same way, and to the same degree, if the thread in question had never been started? If there was one thread in TPM that contained a lot of flaming and trolling, would that mean there was "something a bit wrong" in that entire forum?

    I appreciate you standing up for your friend. But it's apparent to me that you are upset about someone's opinion (an opinion you share) getting shouted down outside of the TPM sanctuary.

    Having spent a lot of time in both forums, it has appeared to me that prequel bashing is more common, and possibly acceptable, in TPM than 3SA. All opinions are of course welcome everywhere, but the "temperature" of each forum is different in that respect.

    Like I stated on the previous page, this is a Star Wars site, and if you continually bash Star Wars at every turn, you have got to expect some hostility towards your opinion.

    EDIT: clarity
  17. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    royalguard96,

    Would you honestly feel the same way, and to the same degree, if the thread in question had never been started?

    No. It brought my attention to a problem. I don't often post in that forum. I did state in THIS instance, things were not handled well.

    If there was one thread in TPM that contained a lot of flaming and trolling, would that mean there was "something a bit wrong" in that entire forum?

    Yes! Most definately. If any member were treated the same way in "my territory :)))" I would and I HAVE stepped in.

    But it's apparent to me that you are upset about someone's opinion (an opinion you share) getting shouted down outside of the TPM sanctuary.

    I stick up for my mates. I can't lie about that. However, I would never stick up for someone who didn't deserve it (maybe once with TrueJedi :)).

    Having spent a lot of time in both forums, it has appeared to me that prequel bashing is more common, and possibly acceptable, in TPM than 3SA. All opinions are of course welcome everywhere, but the "temperature" of each forum is different in that respect.

    Like a lot of the comments I have been hearing the "temperature" comment is vague. It is not rational nor quantifiable. It simply means things are different in the EpIII forum. However, I do believe certain principles, the TOS, should flourish in more than the TPM forum.

    Like I stated on the previous page, this is a Star Wars site, and if you continually bash Star Wars at every turn, you have got to expect some hostility towards your opinion.

    Funny how nobody ever praises Binary for his DEVOTION to SW. He loves the original SW like no other fan I have ever seen (or read). Needless to say, idiot, basher, gusher or ignorant, we all should be protected by the TOS which allows us to freely express our opinions.











  18. royalguard96 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Like a lot of the comments I have been hearing the "temperature" comment is vague. It is not rational nor quantifiable. It simply means things are different in the EpIII forum. However, I do believe certain principles, the TOS, should flourish in more than the TPM forum.

    Yes, the TOS should apply equally everywhere. By "temperature" I mean the tolerance level of certain opinions. This can change from forum to forum. In TPM, prequel slamming is much more common, and in my opinion, more accepted by the posting populace there.

    That is a very different group than the one that posts in 3SA. Think of it like this: southern accents are much more common in Alabama than they are where I live in Michigan. It doesn't make the people in Alabama any better or worse. They just have their own accents, one that isn't shared everywhere.

    One bad thread doesn't mean an entire forum is on shaky ground. If that were true, every forum in this place would be on shaky ground.
  19. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    By no bashing or gushing, I mean no extreme behavior. I don't care whether someone likes some facet of the films or not, just do it responsibly.
  20. foxbatkllr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    We have enough ire in 3SA without inviting unnecessary bashing of the rest of the PT by disguising it as an Ep3 topic.

    Bingo.
  21. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    And so we're asking that you not add fuel to the ire.
  22. Darth_Zidious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    It brought my attention to a problem. I don't often post in that forum.

    Well I post a heck of a lot in that forum and I read it every day. There is no problem.

    3SA is for discussion about EP III. As a practical matter, it needs to stay focused on that. Yes, the other movies can be appropriate subject matter, but this thread had a thin EP III patina covering what is essentially a PT bash thread. Since some try to skirt the rules (like Warren Sapp has been doing during the pre-game preparation in the NFL), it has to be a judgment call by the mods. This one was blatantly obvious.

    Don't worry, once EP III gets close to completion, the forum will change to be like the TPM/AOTC forums. In other words, it will be a barren forum filled only with chronic bashers who have driven everyone else away. You can rejoice, the basher glory days are coming.
  23. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    So, people's opinions about rumours are now uneccessary?

    Ire is to be avoided?

    There's contention because of what may concern the last Star Wars film ever.
  24. DarthBane420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2003
    star 5
    Shane,
    I think Sapient meant to say "fire" not "ire" but I could be wrong.

    I understand your concern, but that's just not the way it is.
    There are several threads currently with people debating the merit of a new character in Episode 3. Some hate the idea, others love it, but overall the discussions flow very smooth.
    There is the occasional bait, flame whatever, but certainly no more than any other form. I would argue there is even less, and that's astounding considering the volume.
  25. ElfStar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    By no bashing or gushing, I mean no extreme behavior. I don't care whether someone likes some facet of the films or not, just do it responsibly.

    Thanks for addressing this thread, Sapient.

    Please define "extreme behavior." How was Binary's thread irresponsible?
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