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Discussion Episode IX Story Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth Formidious, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    This brings up a good point. So far the stories protagonist has been Rey and her journey and how it has intersected with the sky walker's arc, specifically Ben solo. Is she the one to return light, balance and bring Ben back? What exactly would leia's larger role have been? If Leia was to redeem kylo Ren then how does Rey fit in there? As girlfriend and potential mother to his children? To reduce Rey to wife/mother/girlfriend would be insulting. And that was already done with Padme --- but it fit padme's arc to an extent.

    Rey has to be instrumental to the outcome but not sure how to reconcile what Leia would do.

    I stand by my idea that Leia won't die but not sure how she'd be used. Luke told her "I can't save him" and then said "no ones every really gone" so did that mean Leia was the one to save him? Could Rey bring Leia to him or connect them?

    Then I brings back the discussion -/ is Rey his sister? That means more family drama and would give Rey's character more strength as a skywalker as well. Then it is a skywalker story and it solves the problem of her just being the "helper"

    I feel like I rambled...
     
  2. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Rey being a Skywalker would completely undermine the "everyone can be a hero" story though. I don't think that will happen.

    I'm not really sure how one could even manage to turn her into a Skywalker at this point. There are only two people she could be the offspring of. Leia or Luke. She clearly isn't the daughter of Han & Leia, those two would have known about that, and they certainly wouldn't have left her alone on Jakku. Making Luke the father would require quite a lot of twisting things around. The only way it could possibly be explained that Luke doesn't really know about her, would be if her mother was pregnant with her but left Luke without telling him. Certainly doable, but rather convoluted. It also sounds more like a soap opera ;)

    At this point I don't see any reason to assume that she will just be the helper anyway. You can help someone and still be vital to the story. The entire OT works that way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  3. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Well they do call it space opera.

    And true -- Han wasn't a skywalker.
     
  4. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I still think it’s a little weird that it’s possible that The Skywalker Saga will end with the idea that a rando has to clean up the Skywalker mess. Weirder still is the number of people that are like “hell yeah that’s awesome!”

    Is it really going to be satisfying to end the last Skywalker saga movie on the idea that the last Skywalker is evil and will possibly be killed off?

    So Skywalker #1 turns evil and kills most of the Jedi.

    Skywalker #2 stops Skywalker #1 but initially fails to bring back the Jedi and has more success accidentally helping create Vader 2.0.

    Then Skywalker #2 gives up on everything but comes back at the last second to inspire the galaxy and dies and then it’s up to Rando Rey to save the day.

    That kinda makes it feel like Rey’s part is tacked on. She’s only there because the Skywalkers dropped the ball.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  5. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Why is it weird? Because you disagree with it? The main antagonist is a Skywalker, and it seems LFL plan is to leave things open to the very last minute. So the Skywalker saga might end with the last member of the family redeemed by what this first Skywalker once said "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love."
     
  6. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Weird isn’t the right word I guess. Depressing is more like it.
     
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  7. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2017
    She IS going to be dead, KK has already made it clear with Carrie Fisher's passing they're not going to CGI her back into the fold, they aren't going to recast Leia, she's out


    Apparently the Skywalkers are martyrs. And it makes 'perfect sense' what happened in TLJ. Those who disagree lack 'vision.'
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  8. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    That's weird to you??

    Yet, the idea of the force impregnating a random woman, to give birth to the chosen one, that will bring balance to the Force, (which is technically reducing the number of Jedi and ultimately killing his Sith boss), is not weirder to you?
     
  9. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2017
    They actually came up with a story for that. A complicated story that built upon the actual SW universe.

    They just intend to make Rey randomly 'special.'
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  10. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I’m not a fan of the Force pregnancy either.
     
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  11. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Super complicated, yep. The last Skywalker has gone dark and the Force grows strong in another individual to balance itself.

    I remember we have seen this before actually. That time with midichlorians and additional "complications".
     
  12. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2017
    I believe, it was established Darth Plagueis was responsible. In one of the novels. As a stratagem to trick the Jedi.

    Infinitely more interesting than the SW version of Broly/Kale.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  13. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Ah... Good old Plagues.

    Something which was not canon and in fact more complicated than TLJ's take.
     
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  14. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Because....Disney made it so. They also made it so Thrawn and the TIE Defender were non-canon....Oh wait. Instead of coming up with a new villain for Rebels they scurried back to the now non-canon trove they had access to and suddenly, they're canon again. 'Official' canons are funny that way.

    Besides, I feel in a large galaxy, it makes sense a lot would happen behind the scenes. In comparison Rey appearing out of the blue with more skill than Luke or Anakin ever evidenced seems....Rushed.

    Even then, I feel it was eluded to when Palpatine talked to Anakin about using the Force to influence the Midi-chlorians. To create. Life. (Looks to Anakin knowingly) If you can't get that from that exchange and you manage to grab the 'beauty' of TLJ, then this argument is pointless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  15. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I don't see how that is Rey's story. She is very clearly not anywhere near an "everyone".

    She is a surgical tool created by the Force itself. No real faults and pure power itself.
     
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  16. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    I do think that Luke's "No one's ever really gone" comment to Leia was a hint for her not to give up yet. And I definitely think the plan was for Leia to play a role in saving Ben in IX. The OT was the son saving the father, and I think IX would've been the mother playing a role in saving the son. Still, though, Rey is the main protagonist in the ST so it'll always be questionable how much of a role Leia actually would've played.

    I hope they don't just write Leia off at the beginning, but I feel like they most likely will. Using her presence, her voice, or anything of the sort in the story at all is a very tricky challenge and I don't know if they're up to it.
     
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  17. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    ....she got tossed around like a rag doll by Snoke, became so obsessed with her family that she jumped into darkness, was tricked into helping Ben kills his master and assume power and at the end of the movie, while Luke is saving the day she moves some Rocks so the resistance can run away.....doesn't sound like a surgical tool created by the force itself with no flaws to me.

    Rey is not a perfect being by any stretch of the imagination...she just has different issues than Luke and Anakin did when they were the young protagonists of the saga.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  18. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    While Luke got tossed around like a ragdoll by sandpeople and bar patrons. Anakin was tossed around by beasts and bounty hunters. With Rey it's Snoke and Ren (who at those moments are at least temporarily more powerful than her).

    It's of note that Anakin and Luke lost limbs to Sith Lords while Rey got a bruise on her head from Snoke. That was not out of nowhere but a comic point from RJ that was played as such. You thought Rey might get some injury from a Sith/Darksider? Well here's one for you! Funny isn't it?

    Which was created by TLJ as a remake of what she had already got over in TFA. That one bit of something was taken away by RJ so that he could replay it. Even some basics she got from Maz and her experience in the forest were pulled away so they could be redone in TLJ.

    Actually she thought he was going to turn and that she was helping him. Helping someone to turn from the dark side is hardly a fault.

    Luke doesn't "save the day" as such. He causes a distraction based on Ren's many faults (which only works because Poe figures it out not that Luke told Leia or anyone to get out of there!) Rey does save the day as such because only she could move those rocks which she does with complete ease that Yoda in AOTC couldn't pull off without effort.

    I've said an idealized hero which is what she is. It's really not that much of a stretch into perfect being from there either.

    She has about next to no issues as is humanly possible and what minor ones there were existed for plot not character reasons much like the Falcon which was simply waiting there for years so Rey could use it to escape. Power comes to her, knowledge comes to her. She needs no real learning. She is an ideal and good hero.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  19. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    How is that not Rey's story?

    Yes, she most definately is "everyone". That term means that there is no dependence on some sort of heritage, not whatever you are currently reading into it. The force choses someone to do something, completely independently of whether the person is coming from some obscure backwater planet or is just one in a age old family line of Jedi.

    That's the entire point. It doesn't require someone from the extremely powerful Skywalker line (which has only been that way for a short period) to save the day. Instead it can be anyone else as well, in this case a girl left alone on a remote desert planet. That is the definition of "great things can be achieved regardless of your background".

    By turning Rey into a Skywalker it turns from "the force randomly picks someone to do what is needed" to "everytime something goes wrong, a Skywalker needs to be there to repair it", which is the very opposite of what I mentioned above. Because at that point you suddenly would need to be from a specific background to achieve these things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  20. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    I agree.

    This does feel like Kylo's story of redemption and earning back his family legacy and going "home".

    He has TOO much focus as a character even though he is the big bad.

    Even Vader never had that much focus in the OT and he was Luke's(our hero) father.

    Lucas got to show Anakin's redemption in the OT. He then made a whole trilogy about his fall so his redemption will feel more emotional and meaningful.

    He clearly likes redemption stories.

    He had plans for ST and
    No matter what Disney says KK is following Lucas's plan for the skywalkers.

    That is the reason why she is THE head of LF and fires directors whose vision doesnt match with hers.

    Rey is the hero of ST but the story is about Kylo.

    And its showing onscreen.
     
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  21. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    You don't have to make Rey suffer the same problems as before to prove her inexperience.She's failed often enough in TFA and TLJ to show she is not some perfect hero.

    She clearly wasn't 'over it' after TFA. It's still something she desired and wrestled with. That is one of the points of this movie. People work to be better, work to get over things and sometimes those issues rise up and consume you even when you think you were past them.

    It is a fault, just like Luke running off to save his friends during ESB was a fault. Her actions were poorly thought out, based off misunderstood actions, and resulted in disaster for her and failure in her stated goal.

    Yoda had just gotten finished fighting Count Dooku....then Yoda summons his cane back to hand afterall is said and done suggesting the fight, moving like he did and using the force were a strain on him at that age. Rey is young...and all she had to do was lift....not comparable

    She's impulsive, reckless, a bit of a hot head and dosen't think things through...she's not an idealized hero

    Incorrect, I've gone over her mistakes, and issues so I won't repeat them, but end of the day she's just as flawed as anyone else and it shows.
     
  22. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    That comparison to Yoda in AOTC is truly hilarious. Yoda fought a Sith Lord for pete's sake. He fended off Dooku's attempts to throw stuff at him, captured lightning like he ate that stuff for breakfast, then had a lightsaber battle before having to lift a giant object that was falling down onto Anakin & Obi Wan. All Rey had to do was lifting some rocks that were on the ground while being under no further duress. In no way, shape or form is that in any way comparable to what Yoda was doing against Dooku, much less something that "Yoda in AOTC couldn't pull off". Keeping the object from falling onto Anakin and Obi Wan was already more impressive than lifting rocks from the ground, and that was after having battled a Sith Lord.

    And yes, Luke most definately does save the day, because without him it wouldn't have mattered one bit whether Rey would have lifted the rocks or not. It was Luke who allowed them to search for an escape, heck, it was his appearance that even got them thinking about leaving the place. Without him, the resistance stays put, and the First Order can quickly advance.
     
  23. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    I think this is the wrong way to look at it. There is a mess. All that matters is that the mess is resolved. I don't think it really matters whether it's a random or someone related to the instigator of said mess. That said, I do think Leia would have played a major role in Ben's fate had Carrie not tragically passed. And I think Luke will also play a part in what is still to unfold as well. Add in the connection / antagonism that Kylo and Rey have had and I think you have enough skin in the game for it to be compelling with Rey Nobody showing the way. Think of all the many, many great stories that don't rely on a family member stopping the villain.

    Separate subject - I don't think Rey is overpowered at all, but I would have shown her struggling a bit more to lift those rocks, just to close off that inevitable complaint.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  24. Roosterq

    Roosterq Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2017
    It has taken me a while to absorb all that occurred in TLJ. While I'm still not a fan of how the story has treated what has n=been established as Star Wars lore, I do see where this could go and regain a lot of what made Star Wars great. IX is obviously done with almost all the characters from the previous trilogies, but I could see them taking the route of Kylo really becoming a true force of evil. If he finally chooses and goes full on dark, they could make him on par with Vader, but make it obvious redemption for him is not going to happen EVER. He could become the real big bad of the ST and Rey becomes the pinnacle of the light side. It could set up a future where Kylo does have off spring and they could continue the Skywalker story in later trilogies. For me to really embrace Star Wars going forward I think they need to make Kylo a real villain and not a fence post turtle.
     
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  25. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Have Kylo take BB-9E. Then go out and recruit BT-1, 000, and Kkrsantan who served with his grandfather.

    Then have them return to the FO, where Kylo recruits FN-2000.

    Then have Kylo recruit the best tie pilot that the FO has. Who turns out to be a woman.

    Now Kylo has his own "dark team" to impress Rey.





    I'm joking.