Episode V: the Luuuv Triangle Strikes Back

Shar Kida: I wasn't trying to jump on you about not giving your opinion about the matter. I was just wondering why you didn't ever really give it.

Obi Have:
"Do Christians believe in heaven and hell? If so, what is the criteria for determining who goes to heaven or hell? Is it faith in God? If so, does an unrepentent murderer who nevertheless professes faith in God go to Heaven? Or, is it about being good or evil? Can an atheistic "good" person go to Heaven, despite his or her lack of faith and unwillingness to consider him or herself a sinner?"

Yes Christians do beleive in a heaven and hell. The criteria in which I was brought up in is that you have to have to let God into your life and basically have faith in him and repent your sins. So that should also answer your question about the murderer. And in Christian views if an aetheist has not accepted God as his personal savior and repented his sins would not go to heaven.

"How does the Christian deal with cultures that do not practice Christianity? If faith in God/Christ is prerequisite for going to Heaven, then, are the billions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, etc., going straight to hell?"

My opinion to this is alot of those religions believe in a God. There might be different names but I think that it all comes down to that one God. I too had this question before I fully gave my life to Christianity. I did alot of searching and this is the best possible answer I could come up with. It satisfied me.

"I guess that's why some Christians call themselves "God fearing Christians." For me, I'd rather not have a God that I'm supposed to fear."

I couldn't agree with you more. I do not fear God. I think he is a God of Love and compassion. I am thankful to him for giving me insights that I have and the chance to spend eternity with him.

"The one question I have is: is there a "hell" in Star Wars? I ask this, because there clearly is an "afterlife" in SW; Obi Wan's ghost, for example. So, for those who are "good" or with the light side of the Force, they are destined to live after they have died. But, what happens to unredeemed, evil people like Darth Maul and the Emperor? What happens to them in the afterlife? Do they become spirits as well? Or, do they pay some consequence for embracing the dark side of the Force?"

I think there is a Hell in SW. Why else would Han Solo say in TESB, when he was going out on a Ton Ton(spelling?), and they were trying to stop him and he said "i guess i'll see you in Hell then." or something to that nature.


Archivist:
Wow. This is getting really scary. There are alot of points that I agree with you on. I know I might have sounded extreme a little earlier but I really am down to earth(to a point) to alot of these things. There are alot of stuff I don't agree with my religion about but I do believe with them in and to me they are the main things that should be believed in. One of the points I do agree in,that I will talk briefly about,is
the "war" item you brought up. I agree with you on this matter although I do believe that there are some wars that need fighting but not for religous purposes. The one about God is that he gives everyone the choice to accept him so why would he condone killing over him? The wars I talk about that need fighting is when people are being wrongfully killed.

This is just what I feel.

 

Ringworm:

And in Christian views if an aetheist has not accepted God as his personal savior and repented his sins would not go to heaven.

Ouch. Seems rather harsh. I know a lot of good people who are either aetheists or agnostics. So, is Albert Camus in hell along side Charles Manson? That's a disturbing thought, imo.

If Hitler, upon Germany's downfall in WWII, had seen the light and honestly and sincerely repented his sins and converted to Christianity before he died, does that mean he would have gone to Heaven? This is the same question SW fans have about Vader's "redemption." They can't believe that Vader gets to go to jedi heaven, even if he turns out good at the end, because of his role in killing 10,000 jedis and committing other atrocities.

Here's an additional question:

1) Ok, if faith and repentence is key to going to heaven, what about all those babies and little children who die before they can even understand what faith and repentence is? Is there an exception for children? Are there different criteria for children? Or do all babies and children automatically go to heaven, since, presumably, they were too young to have sinned?



[This message has been edited by Obi Have (edited 08-19-1999).]

 

Obi Have:
Yes that is what it is believed. It is believed that God gives you plenty of opportunity to repent your sins and give your life to him. As disturbing as it sounds, if Hitler sincerely and really meant it I guess he would go to heaven. IMO though you can't go commit a sin and right before you commit it say "I will just repent my sin and I will be Ok"

To answer your question about children. I have asked the same question and wondered the same thing. IMO I believe children are considered pure and innocent. because they do not have the true understanding of Christianity. I am not talking about the little mischevious/bad things that they do. As for what age would they be accountable? I think this would vary from child to child. Their mature levels and the age of their understanding.

I am not trying to shove this down your throat but I do hope this gives you a better understanding. I also hope that I have distinguished the difference between what is believed in "General" and what is my opinion.

 

Ringworm: some quick thoughts before I have to log off.

IMO I believe children are considered pure and innocent. because they do not have the true understanding of Christianity.

But, aren't we all born sinners? I'm not sure about this, but that's why I'm asking. So, if a baby is born a sinner, and dies before getting the chance to repent, does it go to hell? Sure, it's unfair, but just as unfair that a really good and humane person such as Albert Camus goes to hell, because he didn't believe in God.

And there's a rather disturbing implication to your theory that babies are born pure and innocent, and presumably, goes straight to heaven upon premature death. The implication is this: if this is true, to guarantee that one goes to heaven, one should die while a baby. So, some parents, who love their child so much and want their child to go to heaven, could get it in their heads to kill their child to guarantee eternal life.

As for what age would they be accountable? I think this would vary from child to child. Their mature levels and the age of their understanding.

Ooh, sounds tricky to me. The one thing about the whole faith/repentence critieria is that it is pretty clear cut. With your critiria for children, seems really murky and ambiguous. And *who* decides whether a child is mature enough to understand faith/repentence? God? So when a child dies, no one can really knows whether he or she went to heaven, right?

What about the unrepentent person who goes into a coma, or has severe brain damage? Since obviously one can't repent while in a coma, do we just assume that since he was unrepentent before he went into the coma, that he pretty much is going to hell?

 

BasherBull why did you even post anything in here if you are telling us not to be concerned about the afterlife? Things like this need to be addressed IMO.

Oh yea, you only have to click submit ONE TIME!!!!! LOL

[This message has been edited by RingWorm (edited 08-19-1999).]

[This message has been edited by RingWorm (edited 08-19-1999).]

 

Can a baby think logically???? Can a retarded person?? I don't think so. God takes these things into account. I don't think so. Could Albert Camus?? I think he had plenty of time to decide for himself. As far for the parent issue, if those parents killed their child then they have just broken a commandment. "Thou shalt not murder." I do believe children are born pure and innocent. When have they had a chance to sin? If they can't say the word "ball" how can they claim that God is their savior? Don't you think God is smart enough to take these things into account?

As for the coma and etc. issue as mean as it sounds, the way of Christian thinking from my interpretation, is how long had they lived before hand?

 

WOW. I'm impressed. This hasn't de-evolved into a flame war. Everyone is still being civil. Kudos to Shar, Archivist, and RingWorm.

Obi-Have - I agree. I have to reject Christianity on ethical grounds. Any God that would allow a place like hell to exist is a sadist. Pure and simple. I can't reconcile that. I just can't. Yes, there is a "way of escape" through Jesus, but what if you weren't raised in a christian culture. Most people just stay with the religion of their birth. I very much like what RingWorm said about God having a lot of different names. That is a wonderful way for Christians to look at it. C. S. Lewis would agree.
Still, that's not exactly an orthodox idea.

As for children being born pure and innocent - no way. For all have sinned, and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Everyone that is born into this world is a sinner by default. HOWEVER, if I'm not mistaken, there is a couple of clauses in the Bible that basically say children are not held accountable until they reach the age of accountability. In other words, they are not judged until they have heard the gospel and are at an age where they can make a conscious decision about it. The same thing goes for people with mental problems. They won't have as many "stripes" against them, which I think is kinda nice.

On a side note, Hitler was a Christian. That's not a popular fact, but he was quoted many times as saying "I have done nothing that is not in accord with God's will." A lot of antisemitism comes from the New Testament. They crucified Christ. And even though he was born Jewish, in his day Christ even called Jews a "nest full of vipers," or something to that effect.

The hell thing is interesting. I mean, I basically dislike people. As a mass, anyway. But I wouldn't send ANYONE to hell. No one deserves that. It's a very bad place. And I'm suppose to sit here and believe that a God, who allegedly loves each and every one of us more than we love our own children would let us go to hell? Because of no other reason than that a woman ate a piece of fruit that a talking snake told her to six thousand years ago? I think not.

As for fearing God, I was raised to believe I WAS suppose to fear God. I mean, read the Old Testament. Body count is pretty high. But then SW teaches fear is of the dark side, so anything that is motivated by fear cannot be God.

Which opens up a whole new can of worms. We are told we have a choice in Christianity, but we really don't. I can choose whether or not to be a Christian, but if I choose not to, I'll suffer eternal damnation in hell. May I ask "What the hell kind of a choice is that?!" No choice at all. In the courts of America, it would be blackmail.

Not to mention, as ObiHave pointed out, a lot of people are going to be in hell. I mean, teh idea of personal salvation, salavation by faith, not works, is barely 500 years old. Martin Luther. Protestant Reformation. Etc. And humans have been on the planet for what - an estimated two million years? And calculate that even today, at the height of Christianity, half the world curently living is not even Christian. So in other words, 99.9% of everyone who has ever lived is now in hell, according to this cosmology.

And I have no idea what all this has to do with SW ...

And Ringworm - You're even an Anti-TPM troll, aren't you!

"If the Bible had said Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it."
William Jennings Bryant.

 

Ringworm:

Can a baby think logically???? Can a retarded person?? I don't think so. God takes these things into account. I don't think so. Could Albert Camus?? I think he had plenty of time to decide for himself.

My whole point with the Camus example is that it seems very unfair and unreasonable that God would send a good, humane man to hell, because he was an existentialist. Why should a repented Hitler join God in heaven, while Camus has to spend eternity with the likes of Charles Manson, Mussolini, Ted Bundy, etc.?

You also seem to suggest that there are several exceptions to "the faith and repentence will get you into heaven" rule. I.e., for babies, children, the mentally retarded, etc. Although you seem unwilling to make an exception for those who go into comas, become brain-damaged, get alzheimer's disease, become insane, etc. So, does the age of the person who goes into a coma make any difference? If an unrepentent 18 year old goes into a coma versus a 39 year old, would God cut the 18 year old some slack?

I don't know; with all these exceptions to the faith/repetence rule, it seems to get pretty murky and complicated. Isn't part of the beauty of the faith/repentence rule that it is so clear and simple? And that it really is up to the individual to seriously repent and express faith in God, thus putting it entirely into the individual's hands whether he or she goes to heaven.

However, with all your exceptions, it seems like God has to pass judgment on a special category of people, based on what criteria, who really knows? So, that ultimately, for a large group of people, they will go to heaven or hell based on God's judgment, and not based on faith/repentence. In other words, for some people, it is completely out of their hands whether they go to Heaven or not.

As far for the parent issue, if those parents killed their child then they have just broken a commandment. "Thou shalt not murder."

Yeah, but the parents may be willing to sin for the sake of their children. And as you say, as long as they sincerely repent for their deed, then they will see their murdered child in heaven. Or, maybe some parents love their child so much, they are willing to spend eternity in hell to ensure that their chid will go to heaven.

3) I also want to respond to your interesting point regarding nonChristian faiths like Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. The way I understand what you are saying is that Muslims and Taoists actually do believe in the same GOD as Christians, but simply express their belief in GOD in different, culturally contingent ways. And you express the belief that all those buddhists/taoists aren't condemned to hell because they aren't Christians; rather, because they believe in the same GOD as Christians, they'll go to heaven if they follow their the rules and tenets of their own religion . Am I stating your proposition properly?

If so, then that means the "faith/repentence" rule is NOT the only way to go to Heaven, since in those other religions, they don't really adhere to such Christian tenets. Taoists, for example, don't really believe in the concept of sin (Shar, let me know if I'm wrong about this).

So, if you are right, it means people don't necessarily have to become Christians in order to be able to go to Heaven. They just need to believe in *something*, whether it is Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism.

Although, how do you separate the religions that actually believe in the same God, from the false religions that believe in a false God? I mean, what about Scientology as a religion?

Your posts have been very helpful, Ringworm. These are questions I've always thought about, but never really have discussed with anyone. FYI, I was raised Methodist, but now I'd consider myself agnostic. I'm leaning towards believing in something, but not sure what; taoism seems appealing to me,though.

[This message has been edited by Obi Have (edited 08-19-1999).]

 

Dedalus: well said!

Obi-Have - I agree. I have to reject Christianity on ethical grounds. Any God that would allow a place like hell to exist is a sadist.

Yeah, I just don't like the idea of a "hell" either. But, I think one can be Christian and reject the notion of hell. Or, at least, one can believe in some of the teachings of Christ without believing in the whole of Christianity. I don't like the idea of rejecting Christianity in total just because of the "hell" thing. There's a lot of good stuff in Christian everyday morality (i.e., the "Golden Rule;" the preaching of humility, etc.), and Jesus Christ is one my heroes, along side MLK, JR., Gandhi, Buddha, and yes, Albert Camus.

But then SW teaches fear is of the dark side, so anything that is motivated by fear cannot be God.

Which is what I love about the spiritual aspects of Star Wars; it teaches us that we should let go of our fears, hate, and aggression, and try to adopt a state of passivity, calmness, peace of mind, and serenity. Sounds pretty good to me. The world would be a much better place if there was less fear and hatred in the world.

 

Obi Have:
I too have questioned alot of this stuff. I am not saying I believe all of the Christianity things. I have just told you of what I have heard ministers and etc. say. The bottom line is The almighty God is who chooses who goes to Heaven. Not me, not you, not atheist, not Christians, etc. This is up to God. He gives everyone the choice. I am going with my religion and I feel I will meet him one day and I will be with my family there. There are some aspects of my religion that I am iffy about but 95% I do agree with.

 

Wow. Thanks to all who posted! This is by far the weirdest thread I have ever read...

I don't know if I'm too late to help things get back on topic, but I'm not sure that some of Shar's definitions of religion didn't confuse some of the members.

Take weird for example. I said that this was a weird thread (or turned into a weird thread). According to my Webster's, weird can mean:

1) of or about ghosts, etc.; mysterious, eerie, etc.

or

2) strange, bizarre.

Obviously, I meant 2) in this case.

Similarly, the word religion has 4 or 5 or 7 different yet equally legitimate definitions:

Object of worship, belief system centering around God, etc... but they aren't all appropriate for every situation.

If we use the first example I listed, we can say "money is your religion." but I think we are missing out on some of the meaning of the word religion in the phrase "Christianity and Judaism are both religions."

In the latter sentence, we probably mean something which is not fully captured by "object of worship".

In any case, you all need to pick a definition before you proceed if you really want to hash this out. If you are all working on different definitions, then it seems unlikely that you'll make progress towards an answer to an interesting question.

I personally insist on some level of:

-wide membership

-general acceptance as a religion by most people of the world (who know about the belief system in question), and

-some semblance of internal organization

in my definition of religion; any thing less, I consider a cult (no negative connotation). Further, I consider the "object of worship" definition as "slangy".

Of course, if you all accepted my definition of the word, the case would be pretty open-and-shut!

Also, the "object of worship" definition also makes this discussion open-and-shut, and pretty shallow.

This is an interesting topic; but before you proceed, I encourage you all to find 1 definition that is applicable to the discussion at hand. IMO, it should leave the question open to debate and interesting... Good luck

Yours,
TLBR

Oh yeah,

PS Dedalus:

quote:

-------------------------------------\
I have to reject Christianity on ethical grounds
-------------------------------------/

LOL. Do you still think morality is stupid?

<inside joke.>

 

It is your choice to reject it or accept it. He gives you that choice.

 

It isn't exactly a choice.

Secondly, it isn't a "he," God has no gender because he/she isn't human. However, we don't really have an appropriate word, because "it" is a bit inappropriate.

Also, no human including Christians can presume to know what God does, or what God "thinks." That's another one, God isn't smart and God doesn't think, God would be more of a presence than a physical entity. Much more like the Force, IMO. Because, God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, therefore he/she/it doesn't have to "think."

The entire idea of God, as described by my religion teacher, is utterly beyond human comprehension, or that's the idea anyway.

On another note, I'm sorry for sounding ignorant, but who is "Albert Camus"?

I'm only 16, so I'm just wondering if you could tell me something about him....

 

Ol'val, Archivist.

I am late in my response! Albert Camus was a French author who explored ideas of the absurd and existentialism in novels such as The Stranger ("L'Etranger"), The Plague, The Myth of Sisyphus etc (which make good reads, btw). What follows is taken from Rhui Chatar's post in MacTusken's "Qui-Gon Jinn and Civil Disobedience" thread Forum1/HTML/016581.html Forum1/HTML/016581.html and is worded rather better than anything I could come up with.
The Absurd Man - A.Camus
What, in fact, is the Absurd Man? He who, without negating it, does nothing for the eternal. Not that nostalgia is foreign to him. But he prefers his courage and his reasoning. The first teaches him to live without appeal and to get along with what he has; the second informs him of his limits. Assured of his temporally limited freedom, of his revolt devoid of future, and of his mortal consciousness, he lives out his adventure within the span of his lifetime. That is his field, that is his action, which he shields from any judgment but his own.
.....
Time will prolong time, and life will serve life. In this field that is both limited and bulging with possibilities, everything to himself, except his lucidity, seems unforeseeable to him.


Sisyphus ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. There is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor. This is the price that must be paid for the passions of this earth.
- Camus

 

Two or three points I'd like to make on this topic.

1) I'm a Christian, and I love Star Wars.
2) I do not feel any religious obligation to
Star Wars.
3) Why the music was classified in Religion
is probably only known by God and the
person who put it there.
4) From seeing most of the written posts, I
would have to say that most people don't
even view it as a religion.
5) GL said in an interview that SW was not
meant to be a religion(no quotes b/c I'm
not sure those were his exact words, but
they're close.)
6) Why would anyone want to view it as a
religion? That would make it harder to
like, I think.
7) Maybe some people do see it as a religion,
but I don't think that's what GL intended.

Ok, so that was more like 7 points. Oh, well. I thought they were good points.

 

I?m insulted!!!!

SW should be #1 with a bullet on the all time religious music chart!

Hey, it?s no more extreme than ANY other religion. And as a matter of fact I find it much more believable than ?Christian Interpretationist Dogma? or any other mainstream, cult or comet worshipping religion.

BTW: LOTR should be #2

 

Eirtae said: "Coppola was dead on. Religion is where the real power is."

True. But the real power to be found in religion has absolutely nothing to do with control or selfish motivations of any sort. The real power--the head of all worlds, the source of all that is--is pure, infinite Awareness.

All thoughts, feelings, and perceptions arise and fade in it. Your body and mind arise and fade in it. The entire universe and everything you know about the universe come and go within it. Everything you consider "yourself" and everything you consider "everyone and everything else" rise and fall within it. Everything you think, feel, or otherwise perceive about the concepts 'God' and 'Love' arise and fall within it.

It is always present--completely illuminating the states of waking, dreaming, and deep unconscious sleep--whether you realize it or not. It is always here and now: spaceless and timeless: infinite and eternal. Everything is contained within it. Everything is but a manifestation of it. It is all there really is. And it is what you truly are. Awareness--pure, all-embracing Consciousness--is everything.

Realize this deeply and you'll understand real power!

 

This is a cool thread. I guess everyone has to agree on exactly what a religion is before they can start to answer the question, right?

 

George Lucas spoke with Time magazine about his spiritual motivation for creating Star Wars: "I was trying to say in a very simple way, knowing that the film was made for a young audience, that there is a God and there is both a good side and a bad side. You have a choice between them, but the world works better if you?re on the good side. It?s just that simple."
"Is Star Wars a morality play?" Lucas was asked in a 1980 newspaper interview. "Do you believe that your films contribute to a better world by having characters like Luke and Ben Kenobi with superhuman powers?"
Lucas answered: "[Star Wars is] also a psychological tool that children can use to understand the world better and their place in it and how to adjust to that. It?s very basic. It?s where religion came from. Fairy tales and religion were all designed to teach man the right way to live and give him a moral anchor."4

A God In Whose Image?
The central religious figure in Star Wars is, of course, the deity called the Force. Was it created by Lucas as a make-believe god with imaginary powers and characteristics? Or is the Force a model of God as actually perceived by George Lucas?
Marcia Lucas, his former wife, indicated to Time that the Force is very real to George and that he believes in it: "George says he doesn?t, because he thinks people will consider him a freak if he does. But deep down, part of his unconscious believes in it, I think."
Lucas apparently believes his offerings of the Star Wars saga to the world are God-directed. He is quoted by biographer Dale Pollock: "I am simply trying to struggle through life; trying to do God?s bidding."5
George Lucas seems to have genuine concern for people?particularly young people?and a deep commitment to do what he believes God wants him to do. However, threaded throughout his films is a story of God that is more the Gospel According to Lucas than the Gospel according to the Bible. Interestingly, Lucas is the Latinized form of Lukas, the word used by the original Greek New Testament for Luke, as in "The Gospel According to...."6 Their names are similar, but their Gospels are not.
Dave Pollock, who interviewed Lucas in great length in preparing his biography, writes that Lucas?s concept of the Force was heavily influenced by Carlos Castaneda?s Tales of Power, the book about a Mexican Indian sorcerer, Don Juan, who uses the phrase "life force."
"The Force embraces passive Oriental philosophies and the Judeo-Christian ethic of responsibility and self-sacrifice," wrote Pollock. "Yoda?s philosophy is Buddhist?he tells Luke that the Force requires him to be calm, at peace, and passive; it should be used for knowledge and defense, not greed and aggression. The Force demands optimism, not the pessimism that characterizes Luke (and Lucas).... To Lucas, the Force means looking into yourself, recognizing your potential, and the obstacles that stand in your way. He had undergone just this kind of introspection following his car accident?it was his religious conversion, and he wanted to share it with everyone."7

Zen?s Influence
Irvin Kershner, who directed The Empire Strikes Back, also wanted to share his religious convictions in that second Star Wars film. A conversation on the subject was recalled by Billy Dee Williams (who played Lando Calrissian). It took place one evening during a visit with the film?s director:
"Kershner and I sat down at my home in California and we talked about Eastern philosophy. He?s into Zen, and I?ve been into Zen since I was about 26....
"Kershner said, ?I wanna introduce some Zen here because I don?t want the kids to walk away just feeling that everything is shoot-?em-up, but that there?s also a little something to think about in terms of yourself and your surroundings.?
"That?s what Yoda, who?s a Zen master is saying," Williams added, "your better self is your mind."8
The Force is influenced by Eastern religions and outright imagination, as well as Christianity. Lucas drew heavily on the biblical theology of the trinity of God?Fathe

 

Ol'val, all.

Frank Allnut:
What an informative and well-considered post! Without getting myself re-embroiled in this entire issue, I would just like to suggest you might find some more links of interest in the (former) P(SA) Index: Literary/Historical and Philosphical Comparisons Forum1/HTML/015611.html Forum1/HTML/015611.html . It includes quite a few SW/Force/religion threads I do not believe have been moved yet (and in which I would dearly appreciate your opinion).

Kida

 

It may not be a religion, but it´s definitely art. Pure art.

 

Shar Kida...

Thanks for steering me to the literary threads. It will take some time to pore over them, but I intend to. From what I have scanned, however, please let me say that the few posts I noticed appeared intelligent and objective. How refreshing!

My post which prompted your response is actually part of a chapter from my book, "Unlocking the Mystery of The Force." There is more on my website: http://www.frankallnutt.comwww.frankallnutt.com

 

Hello. I am a christian. I believe in God. Im not depressed. Im not closed minded. whichever atheist said that christians were more closedminded than atheists, was obviously being closed minded. <im referring to a post somewhere in the middle of this discussion> As to why a good man can go to hell, while someone like Hitler can go to heaven is a matter of repentance on one's sins and dedicating of one's life to God. If Hitler asked God into his heart before he died, his slate was wiped clean. He did a great many bad things, including the mass murder of Jews<God's Chosen People> but if he repented, God has forgotten them. I don't know if he did or not, and i dont care, because its not my place to judge, but God's.

~Steven Randolph~

God even loves you atheists

 

That is nice ...

 

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