CT Episode V Versus Lucas

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Neon Genesis, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Mnhay27 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Really? Why don't you explain to me, objectively and using proper musical terminology, why Yub Nub is a "horrible song". Keeping your own opinions and preferences to yourself, tell me why Yub Nub fails as a piece of music and why it doesn't work as the closing piece to ROTJ.

    I'll be over here holding my breath.
    Obi-John Kenobi likes this.
  2. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It works as a closing piece to RotJ, but in my opinion, it doesn't work as a closing piece to the saga. Fortunately George felt the same and changed it.
  3. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    EDIT: Can't be bothered

    [IMG]

    (Not you, Alexrd, we all know who I'm talking about)
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 11, 2012
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I think you are being a troll. You're are Always arguing with me..
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 11, 2012
  5. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

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    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Argumentation =/= "trolling".
  6. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    Lucas WAS heavily involved in ESB, but, he did not direct it. He handed those reins over to IK. I think Lucas is best (like most of us) when he collaborates more with others. Hence, Raiders was him and Speilberg. ESB, him and Kersh. ANH, him and Gary Kurtz. I think the prequels suffered from the lack of collaboration. Even one of the best scenes in ROTS was with input by Speilberg (Yoda vs. Palps).
  7. Darthbane2007 Jedi Knight

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    star 4
  8. Jangounchained1990 Jedi Padawan

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    May 31, 2015
    star 2
    Really? I LOVE Yub Nub.
    Last edited by Jangounchained1990, Jun 1, 2015
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  9. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    Aug 19, 2003
    star 6
  10. TheAvengerButton Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 3

    I love Yub Nub, but I like Victory Celebration a little more.
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Jean Valley: Why didn't you direct The Empire Strikes Back?

    Lucas: I hate directing. It's like fighting a fifteen-round heavyweight bout with a new opponent every day. You go to work knowing just how you want a scene to be, but by the end of the day, you're usually depressed because you didn't do a good enough job. When I visited the set in Norway and saw all the problems and the misery that [director Irvin] Kershner was going through, wow, can you imagine being in the Arctic Circle at forty-five below zero? It's hard enough just to walk through it, let alone direct the actors, move the equipment. It was easy to let go of directing.

    Valley: What did you do on this film?

    Lucas: I provided the story and technical advice, like, does a robot do this or that? They shipped me the dailies and I looked at them. There were some problems. They were a little over budget, over schedule. That concerned me, because I only had so much money and I was afraid if they used it all up, we wouldn't be able to finish the movie. But I knew they were trying to do the best job they possibly could, and I thought the stuff looked terrific. It's truly Kershner's movie.

    Valley: Does that make you sad?

    Lucas: Well, it's still my story. I just didn't have to do all the work. [Smiling sheepishly] I feel Chewbacca is still my Wookiee and R2-D2 is still my little robot.

    Valley: How would you have made the movie differently?

    Lucas: Hard to describe. I look at a scene and think, "Gee, I wouldn't have done it that way." A lot of people have told me that The Empire is a better film than Star Wars, so whatever my disagreements were, well, Kershner was right.

    --"The Empire Strikes Back and So Does George Lucas", Rolling Stone interview, 1980.


    And then there's this interview from 83.

    Paul Scanlon: Often, the title ''executive producer'' is an honorarium. Many never visit the set.

    Lucas: Well, in this case, it's a very collaborative situation, and the directors know that going in. I've got to find a director who's willing to give up some of his domain to me and is willing to work with me and accept the fact that he's essentially doing a movie that's been established, that ultimately I'll have the final say. There are a number of directors who just can't do that.

    Scanlon: While the picture is being shot, does the executive producer ever get the itch occasionally to direct?

    Lucas: Yeah. It's mostly the itch to move things along: ''Let's do it.'' But most of the directors are fast. Occasionally, there are problems because I've worked with these crews a lot, and sometimes they have tendencies to ask me questions instead of the directors – things get a little confused once in a while. The special effects and the editing are really more my domain than anything else, because I've had so much more experience at it.


    Scanlon: Do you position yourself a little differently on the Raiders pictures, which Steven Spielberg directs?

    Lucas: It's more of a traditional situation. I do the same thing, only I do less of it. Because ultimately, it's more Steve's vision than my vision, whereas Star Wars is really more my vision because I directed the first one. Steve directed the first Raiders. But again, the truth of it is that, even for a director like Steve and the directors on Star Wars, it's helpful to have a collaborator.

    Scanlon: Of course, the two of you are very simpatico.

    Lucas: He's a perfect director for me to work with. We just think the same way about everything. He'll go a little overboard one way, and I'll go overboard another way, but there's no conflict. There's nobody ramming ideas down the other person's throat. We have a great time together. He keeps saying it's my movie and I'll get blamed for it, and I keep saying it's his movie and he'll get blamed for it. I have no real desire to go out there and direct. It's not like I'm a producer who's sitting there waiting to direct behind somebody's back. I mean, I have no desire. I can do anything I want to do, and if I wanted to direct, I could go in there and direct. It's great to be able to throw out ideas. If they use them, fine. If they don't use them, big deal.

    --"George Lucas Wants to Play Guitar as 'Star Wars' Takes a Vacation", Rolling Stone Magazine, 1983.
  12. LZM65 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2015
    star 4
    I'm sure that others - like Lawrence Kasdan, director Irvin Kersher and other crew members - contributed heavily to the success of "Empire Strikes Back". But so did George Lucas.
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    This is basically it. I don't think anyone on the pro-Lucas side is trying to minimize the contributions of others. We're just trying to combat the laughably erroneous and ahistorical notion that Lucas was only a minor influence on the film.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jun 4, 2015
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    In a way I would say some on the pro-Lucas side are trying to minimize the contribution of others.
    Lucas is basically the ONLY artist that worked on the SW films, at least the only one who counts when it comes to rights..
    He and no one else should have the right to make what ever alterations he wants years after the fact. He is under no obligation to get their approval nor to preserve the original version.
    Kershner, Marquand, Kasdan, Williams, Hamill, Ford etc they have zero rights, they have no right to object over any alterations or have any means of stopping them.

    This, to me, paints their contribution as something that Lucas can discard without hesitation or consideration. If he wants it gone, it is gone, no objections allowed.

    Lucas was indeed a major influence on all SW films but I am hesitant to give him exclusive right to to alter it any way he wants, esp if the original versions are suppresed.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Movies are collaborative enterprises but there has to be one person who has final cut as the primary artist. This isn't unique to the Star Wars films. This is how pretty much literally every movie works. The cast and crew don't get together and vote on how the movie is going to be cut together. Again, that's now how it works, and you must know that. Come on, now.

    Do you think the director of a single Mad Men episode had the ability to unilaterally override Matthew Weiner's creative decisions? Do you think that director even really had that much of a say at all, when it came right down to it?
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jun 5, 2015
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  16. TheAvengerButton Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 3
    And Robert Kirkman's creative control over The Walking Dead. Lucas can't be a special case when others aren't.

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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He isn't. It is common everywhere. The only time an actor has any say is if they're a producer and even then, it isn't a guarantee. Sometimes you'll something like Sigourney Weaver wanting Ripley killed off in "Alien 3", because she didn't want to do "Aliens Vs Predator" and got it, or Leonard Nimoy having creative say on "Star Trek VI". Then there are times when you have Adrian Paul who wanted to have a producer role on "Highlander The Source" and have some say in how the script turned out, only for the draft that he had turned in be not used, because the script was already locked in and couldn't get it overhauled.

    That's fine, he didn't need your permission. He already had the creative control and influence to do so.
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  18. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 4
    With riotous laughter!

    [face_rofl]

    These claimants really better NEVER and I mean NEVER actually find out anything about how TESB was made.

    Then they can live in their la la fantasy land:

    See the candy fairies, sugar-plums, jelly-beans, chocolate bars,
    Dance the minuet,
    With the candied cherries, lolly-pops, peppermints, candy-canes,
    As they pirouette,
    See the FAIRY PRINCESS curtsying, gracefully, beautifully,
    Swaying to the tune...
    Music in the air (so entrancing)
    Flowers in her hair (as she's dancing)
    Love is everywhere (Ah-h-h-h-h-h-h-h)
    'Neath the yellow lemon-drop moon.
  19. TheAvengerButton Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 3
    If people believed the truth about anything the world would be a MUCH better place. And that applies to everyone.

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  20. WriterMan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2012
    star 3
    Not that I disagree, but I'm curious--are you talking about the '97 CGI or the '04 CGI?




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  21. MOC Yak Face Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 5
    Most really smart people in charge of huge projects are pretty good at surrounding themselves with other very smart people whose abilities complement their own. TESB seems like a pretty good case in point.
  22. L110 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2014
    star 3
    Read J. W. Rinzler's The Making of The Empire Strikes back, it will tell you everything you need to know about Lucas's involvement in it's making.
    Qui-Riv-Brid and oierem like this.
  23. Kenobi098 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2013
    star 1
    Rinzlers makjng of books are amazing. I agree with you completely, if you have a ebook reader try to get those versions cause they have behind the scenez video and interviews with cast and crew. Also tons of Ralph Mcqaurrie artwork.
  24. SateleNovelist11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2015
    star 4
    I think Lucas deserves as much credit as Kershner, Kasdan, Kurtz, and the actors. Plus, Lucas came up with plenty of good ideas for the film, such as Vader being Luke's father.
  25. Chancellor Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2014
    star 4
    I actually have a lot of respect for Lucas for handing the film to Kershner to direct. As at the time Lucas was pretty worn out and ESB might not have been as good if the tired Lucas took the directors chair. However to the question at hand, I honestly feel Lucas, Kershner, Kasadan and Kurtz all had pretty equal footing when it came to making the film and each deserve equal credit.