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Speculation Episode VII and... The Netherworlds?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by HegoDamask, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum

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    Aug 19, 2003
    star 8
    Ken Palpatine is dead! Long live Frank Palpatine!
  2. JediGirl_Angelina Jedi Master

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    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    I kinda agree, we need new, iconic villians or SW will never break free of the Skywalker-clan. I adore them to pieces, though. :3
  3. Mystery Roach Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Sorry but I like this thread. Yoda's line about the Netherworld of the Force in Episode III was intriguing to me and something I'd very much like to see explored further in the ST. However, firstly in regards to the title of this thread I think Episode VII should be a fairly simple adventure story with the task of catching you up on the state of the galaxy after the destruction of the Empire and lives of the old characters along with introducing the new ones and just laying a little bit of groundwork for what's to come, while the exploration of deeper themes and realms should be mostly left to the last two movies. Secondly, I'm not so sure I'd actually like to see a visual representation of the Netherworld, but if so then it should probably be more about a spiritual journey, rather than just another battleground. And thirdly, what role do the Whills play in the fate of the galaxy? I don't know but I hope it's a major one. :D
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Sep 27, 2013
  4. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Agreed that if the ST chooses to explore the Netherworld of the Force or concepts relating to the afterlife, they should focus on it more in the final two films. Sort of like how we really don't learn too much about the nature of the Force in ANH, but it is greatly expanded on in TESB with Yoda's teachings. The Netherworld itself should remain mysterious, more in the background, and any actual scenes within this realm should focus on the spiritual, as you said, like something taking place in a character's mind. No actual "physical" confrontation or anything in the Netherworld.

    Finally, I too would love to find out more about the Whills as Lucas might have envisioned them. Beings that long ago were able to discern the secret of becoming one with the Force while retaining their identity after death. Perhaps the heroes must follow the "Whill of the Force"? :p
    Last edited by Circular Logic, Sep 27, 2013
  5. Mystery Roach Force Ghost

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    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I have a crazy Dark Crystal type theory about the Whills being an ancient Order of Force Masters which at some point factioned off into the opposing Orders of the Jedi and the Sith, and that the Force won't truly be balanced until the dogma of both Orders is abandoned in favor of a true "larger view of the Force", and that this is Anakin's true calling as the Chosen One, which will be carried out through his teachings to his descendants in the ST.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Sep 27, 2013
  6. purplerain Jedi Knight

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    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    But wouldn't the ST be following the Skywalker-clan anyway? And Palpatine is the archnemesis of the Skywalker-clan...
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  7. Ganger Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 9, 1999
    star 4
    That is actually very interesting.
  8. bstnsx704 Jedi Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    I see the Whills as the Star Wars equivalent of 2001: A Space Odyssey's aliens. Powerful and knowledgeable to the point where they no longer need physical forms. They have, quite literally, become one with the Force (much like the Jedi that take the form of Ghosts after they merge with the Force).

    Would be interesting if concepts like this are tackled in the ST (or in a completely abstract and trippy spinoff film).
  9. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    This sounds like the supposed eventual fate of the Celestials, an ancient galactic civiliation predating the dawn of the GFFA's galactic community. According to the Plagueis novel, they were "a group of discorporate entities who had merged with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since." Plagueis noted that there were theories that the Celestials were responsible for maintaining the balance in the Force. So, the ideas for the Celestials in the EU could well apply to the Whills in the films, given that we know so little of the latter, even when compared to the mystery of the former.
  10. purplerain Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    1. Plagueis's theory was that The Ones exist. TCW proves his theory right.
    2. The Whills could be Celestials or vica versa.
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  11. bstnsx704 Jedi Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3

    That's actually a pretty intriguing concept. I've never cared at all about the Star Wars EU, but that's pretty interesting.

    I don't watch The Clone Wars, but the Celestials sound a bit like the Mortis characters that a lot of fans seem to be up in arms about (I haven't seen the episodes myself, but I think the Mortis stuff sounds fascinating).
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  12. Trebor Sabreon LACWAC-y Mod of SWTV

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    The figures from Mortis are the Ones @purplerain mentioned.

    If nothing else from TCW, I'd recommend that you check the Mortis arc out if this kind of thing appeals to you. The opening episode in the arc, Overlords, is the only episode of the series I ever personally rated a 10. The remainder offers much to sink your teeth into, as well (even if I felt the episodes were not executed quite as impressively as the first).
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  13. JediGirl_Angelina Jedi Master

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    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    I was always fascinated with the "myth" of the Ones/Celestials. Them returning to the GFFA could be an interesting plot, in terms of how our characters would react to them.
  14. Beezer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    I can handle seeing Anakin or Obi-Wan portrayed by the PT actors - especially since getting the classic trilogy actors might be pretty difficult.

    But I would be appalled beyond belief if any of the "netherworld" characters engage in any sort of action or fighting.
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  15. StoneRiver Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2004
    star 4
    (Posted in both the Netherworld and the Chosen One threads)

    How's this for a possibility regarding the netherworlds of the Force, the Chosen One, the Prophecy and the ST?

    When the saga finished at RotJ the prophecy was fulfilled storywise.
    But when the decision was made to continue the saga, the proverbial goal posts must be moved as it is a continuation of the story that has been built, and because of this we must change our view and come to the conclusion that the Prophecy is not fulfilled and there is more to do from the Chosen One.

    How about that line from Yoda "A prophecy that was misread, could have been"?
    I am proposing that the prophecy WAS misread. That the Jedi understood it to mean destroy the Sith in the physical realm, but it meant so much more. (It would help if we knew what it said)

    At the time of his physical death Anakin joined the Force but retained his identity. Yoda and Obi-Wan also retain identities but what separates them is that they learned how to do this whereas anakin didn't. Maybe the Force ensured he kept his identity because the chosen One is not finished? What if by the time EPIX comes round, Anakin must make the ultimate
    sacrifice for the good of the GFFA and truly become one with the Force. Lose his identity, no longer be Anakin but join the highest level of the Force (thanks @Circular Logic ) in a way beyond standard comprehension. (Maybe this is what it means to be a Whill? - but I'd guess that's another subject)

    The Chosen One, he who is born of the Force, must fully return to the Force in order to fulfill the prophecy in it's entirety.

    Anakin making the ultimate sacrifice would work as a method to stop either a returning spirit Plapy, or the emergence of the head honcho midichlorian manipulator our mate Plagueis who wishes to control the Force, or even some new Sith whose motives and character are yet to be seen.

    Using this scenario, we could have the ethereal theme so often quoted, some form of battle for the Force in the netherworld, a fitting conclusion to the whole open door that is the Chosen One/Prophecy story arc, and the pinnacle of redeeming acts for our messiah-like Skywalker. Ticks all the boxes.

    I have no idea how they would show, or explain, any of this effectively though so that's kind of a bummer on the whole thing.

    Oh, and FWIW, I am a believer that Hayden was put into RotJ firstly as a precaution in case the ST was ever made, but more importantly so the character can be in ST using the same actor for the sake of continuity.

    I reckon the Chosen One has more to do to fulfill the prophecy, and the netherworld will be the setting.

    I feel that if the Sith are in the ST (SW without Sith, yeah right), then the whole Prophecy arc must be continued and concluded
    or they really do run the risk of making the previous 6 episodes redundant.

    Well those are my thoughts - damn those mushrooms were good.

    Time to pick holes, dissect, expand upon, and clarify.... 1, 2, 3.... go.
  16. Mystery Roach Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I'm still not sold on the netherworld battle, but overall I like your thoughts on this. I do think Hayden was inserted into ROTJ to connect the trilogies first and foremost, and I love that about it, but it does seem more and more to me like Lucas was putting things in place for the ST when he made ROTS, so I think there's a good chance it was done for that reason as well. I think he was doing the same thing with Yoda's line. It's all pretty brilliant really. If no more movies are made, the story works perfectly well from beginning to end, but if the ST happens then you have an escape clause in place to extend it.
  17. Trebor Sabreon LACWAC-y Mod of SWTV

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    Yeah, I kind of agree. I like much of what @StoneRiver shared, but more generally speaking, I'm not sold on the concept of, you know, 'Force ghost action heroes.'

    I'd really welcome Ewan, Hayden and Frank Oz back to reprise their respective characters in spirit form, and I'd absolutely looove to see the ethereal realm of the Netherworld depicted in all of what I imagine would be it's impressive splendor, but deciding on the appropriate role for the spirits is absolutely key.

    - Spiritual counsel for the corporeal? Of course. We've seen it before, after all. But in a twist I think most of us would welcome, I think that rather than having the sprits visit Luke again, this time it would be a wonderful idea to have Luke travel to them, finally offering us that elusive glimpse at the next world.

    - Something, some insight, perhaps, which only Anakin can provide in helping to vanquish the threat of the Sith "once and for all," serving as a sort of connective tissue for the saga as a whole? You bet. I'm all for it.

    - The Whills? Heck yes.

    But that said, try as I may, I cannot wrap my mind around any sort of 'battle' in the spirit realm (particularly anything requiring action scenes, of all things). For lack of a better term, I guess I feel spirits should somehow be above that kind of thing. Remember back when some just felt it 'wrong,' somehow, for the likes of Yoda and/or Sidious to have even carried a lightsaber? Well, this, only times about one-thousand, I guess.

    So put your thinking caps on folks. Remember back to that Creative Writing 101 class. How does one go about making these spirits (potentially with a foe in a disembodied Palpatine to consider, as well) an active, vital part of the tale, without resorting to a bunch of hackneyed 'simple tricks and nonsense' - anything which risks the gravitas one would expect of an enlightened being in spirit form - while still offering up a compelling piece of cinema?

    "Well, that's the real trick, isn't it?"
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Oct 1, 2013
  18. darthfettus2015 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 3
    Personally ive always felt the name Skywalker was always meant to have an astral/spiritual meaning. Did they come from a form of heaven? Is that what the netherworld is?
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  19. Beezer Jedi Master

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    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    IMHO there is no way they could ever depict the Netherworld regions on screen in such a way that wasn't a total joke. It's best being left to the viewer's imagination.
  20. FRAGWAGON Jedi Master

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    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    So how about this - Force Ghosts see all the regular people as shimmering blue apparitions, whilst they see their world in startling HD clarity.
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  21. Trebor Sabreon LACWAC-y Mod of SWTV

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    Well, you're right, some things really are best left to the imagination, and I can see how the Netherworld of the Force could sound like a good candidate. That said, I know if I were making the film, I'm sure I'd be awfully tempted to give it a go. :)

    Ah, but how, exactly, to go about it?

    Stormy and difficult to traverse? Or maybe peaceful and serene? Blinding with white light, or dark and spooky?

    It's not much to go on, but here's what the 'wook has to show us:

    [IMG]


    Like Leia's "memories" of her mother, my thoughts are mostly just images, feelings. Foggy, diffuse, hallucinatory. Slow-motion backgrounds set against real time movement of the principals? The music and sound effects would be of paramount importance in selling the experience, of course.

    I think that, just as with the Whills, if the Netherworld ever is shown on screen, the most important thing I'd worry about is that George Lucas is consulted heavily on all of its aspects. I've always wondered about how he sees this dimension.

    To anyone who would like to see it happen, let's play filmmaker. How do you envision the Netherworld? Given the chance, how would you portray it on screen? Or is Beezer right, and it's just something which shouldn't be trifled with at all?
  22. Count Yubnub Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    I'd say stick to mythological archetypes. Like the bank of the river Styx. Or an entirely empty environment (a la the prison in THX-1138) but with so much smoke/fog effects that you don't really see a background, and the dead people the protagonist talks to are hazy. And slo-mo. So, kind of like the Darth Vader vision in ESB.

    Isn't there a quote from someone somewhere who's seen Lucas' early notes about the ST who claimed there are surreal bits, including people in entirely empty environments (again, a la THX-1138)?
  23. Trebor Sabreon LACWAC-y Mod of SWTV

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    Now that's the spirit (sorry, couldn't help myself)! Great post!

    edit: I don't recall the quote you're referencing, but I'd like to know more about it.
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Oct 3, 2013
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  24. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 5
    Let's go there, but It's rather difficult to imagine whether it would be good or bad without knowing the context of the story.

    For example, if Plagueis is in it, then I'd definitely like to see it in the film. It could be part of the problem of the Story. For example, Plagueis trying to cut the Netherworld off from the Galaxy through Force domination. Separating the Ghosts from their corporeal brethren and vice versa. The new Heroes would be isolated, getting no help from the Nether Regions.

    I personally like the idea of Luke sacrificing himself to help his children, thinking he would be of help from the Netherworld, but his body does not disappear, indicating a problem for the heroes and for Luke. Now they need to help Luke and solve the mystery.

    You know, half-baked ideas.
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  25. Darth Chiznuk New Films Manager/The Tom Brady of PT Trivia

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    I'd probably limit the Netherworld to a single scene in the final film. I might even save it for the very last scene where Luke would pass away. It would probably be bright white or foggy and the surroundings would be very hard to make out. Waiting for Luke on the other side would be Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin. He would join them and they would begin talking but we wouldn't be able to hear their words. Finally, all four would turn their backs to us and walk away toward the bright light, their forms fading as the music swells.