Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by HegoDamask, Aug 16, 2013.
edit: wrong thread
It's the ROTS script, actually. Here you go:
Here's the relevant bit:
Yes, force ghosts have been part of the SW universe since 1977. I just don't have any particular interest in seeing a battle of the netherworld, or resurrections, etc etc etc.
The mystery around the force ghosts is part of what makes them so compelling. If the filmmakers try to explain it, the risks are far greater than the upside. Four examples, with big questions fans thought they wanted answered, that creators screwed up:
1. Original Planet of the Apes sequels (how did Apes come to rule)?
2. Twin Peaks (who killed Laura Palmer?)
3. Lost (What is the island? What are Jacob's origins? Etc., depending on how much you can tolerate.)
4. Phantom Menace (midichlorian? Really?)
This last one is what scares me. People really didn't want to know what caused the force. Now they know, and most fans are either angry or neutral. No one loves Midichlorians. So if they try to explain force ghosts, and have battles of the netherworld, etc...I have a bad feeling about it.
Midis never stated to be what causes The Force, and I'd love to know what does.
A bit semantically - Indicators of the force, whatever. It had the same impact as Greedo shoots first. In any event, I am genuinely interested in why you want to know what "causes" the force. Why wouldn't it be life itself, simple as that? We know it's encompassed in all living things - what more do you need?
On Qui-Gon, I always took his meditation before the final exchange as his own preparation to become one with the force.
The appearences section of this page will answer that: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Netherworld_of_the_Force
Also, Yoda mentions it in RotS.
I wasn't thinking of older characters being resurrected and some of the other stuff mentioned, but just the idea of exploring this aspect of the Force and the Jedi is intriguing. It wasn't explored enough in the Prequels, but it would pop up in The Clone Wars, and the bit at the end of Revenge of the Sith about Qui-Gon was just too insufficient.
I was woefully disappointed with the way ROTS skirted around the issue, but I suppose it was done that way so as not to hurt the impact of what happens in the OT. By that logic, the ST could expand upon it.
Because I love knowledge and scientific explanations. I just do.
I always though that everyone after death is going to the Netherworld (after some time "between" this world and real world, so that could explain everything with dissapearing bodies - those who are prepared to join the Netherworld will do that pretty fast, those who can't - have to learn how to do this), but Qui-Gon managed to learn how to communicate with the real world from there and talk to Yoda and Obi-Wan.
And it's quite official that he knew that from the Whills: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/quigonjinn/#!/about Third photo is described like this: "QUI-GON JINN, Student of the Whills". It may be true that Mortis is connected to them. Both this Father and Qui-Gon belived that Anakin is the Chosen One so maybe Father decided to get some help from Qui-Gon?
It's not clear in EU, but there is also theory that those ghosts on Mortis are related to the Celestials, ancient race that dissapeared from the Galaxy - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Celestial I always thought they are pretty similat to The Ancients from Stargate universe.
This is far too complicated and unnecessary for the story. Esoteric metaphysics, while interesting, is not entertaining or necessary to a story; especially in an action-adventure film. It seems as if we have three very different aspects and understandings of the Force, though all mysterious and undefined (early Lucas thoughts on the Whills, the Netherworld [Underworld] and Mortis). Keep it that way, I say. Midis are understandable in relation to a science vs. faith debate and perhaps as a vehicle for explaining unnatural immortality discovered by Plagueis/Palpatine. Contain this part of the story in one or two expository scenes. That's all. Move along. Do not dwell there, it will destroy SW. Keep the mystery, always keep the mystery.
Edit: It's kind of like science explaining the physics of the Universe. Einstein's theories on Relativity go only so far. Let's try Quantum Mechanics...it's great until it tries to square with Relativity, and vice versa. So let's create String Theory to imagine our way out of the problems. These theories are awesome and go along way to explaining the physical, but the Universe is still a mystery. Or, a Unifying Theory still alludes humankind. That's how SW should be with regards to the Force.
Exactly. Ultimately it should be beyond concept.
What if it's all just a typo and it won't be dealing with the Netherworld of the Force, but rather with the Netherrealm?
Yeah, the plot for Pirates 3 was this idea you speak of. The Black Pearl went to the underworld to rescue Jack Sparrow. If you want to see how it was handled it might be worth a watch but the plot seems eerily similar to that guy's "idea."
The white Vader was a response to someone else. Guess there was some wonky html. LOL
The odds of the Netherworlds and Force Ghost battles appearing in Episode VII are as good as Jar Jar's granddaughter being the main baddie; the only difference is the latter possibility does not have its own thread.
I'll check out Pirates 3. I would like to see how they handled that.......
Good. I think you'll see what I mean afterward. I'd hate for SW to go down that road.
Force ghosts are a long established part of SW so I don't have a problem with them existing. The only problem with Obi Wan is that Guinness is dead and it would make no sense to have young Obi Wan appear as a ghost given Luke only knows old Obi Wan and spoke to his ghost.
The Emperor as a Sith Ghost would be OK, Exar Kun & other Sith Lords have managed it and they supposedly were not as powerful as Sidious.
Midichlorians are just a mutation some people have that let them channel an energy field that flows throughout the Universe, rather like the Mutant-X Gene in X-Men that gives some people abilities beyond a normal human (superpowers).
No-one can explain how the Force came to be, it just is as has always been. It's as much a part of the Universe as Gravity is (and we don't really know how that happened, it just exists, but we know how it works) and that has always been.
Someone mentioned previously about creating a door between the GFFA and the Netherworld. Since Abrams has experience with parallel world plots, maybe this is the stronger possibility? New Sith apprentice opens a hole/door between the two worlds, bang, instant Sith army. Sidious returns. Episode 7 could be about the Jedi learning of this plot and trying to stop it.
NO! Please, NO! No parallel worlds and time travel in Star Wars!
From a purely strategic point of view I think it would be far too risky for these new guys to take this direction. Midichlorians were hated as a concept mainly because of their scientific approach. It's a unit of measure, it's scientific and makes the force itself become less mystical to the audience. If the new movies tackle the scientific origins of the force, the filmmakers would inevitably be walking on thin ice . . and not their own ice, but other people's ice.
The Jedi are a religious order who worship some unseen unexplained entity, like many in real-life do. But in RL there are also people who look at the world through the scientific lens to explain how they came to be and how they work, that is all the Midichlorians point was meant to do. Plus it was going against the idea of "magic", Jedi and Sith are not magic they simply are people who have a special ability.
Plus Midichlorians explains how Vader became less powerful once he was injured, he had less in his body to channel his Force power through.
I don't envision a ghost battle, but rather the quest to stop evil ghosts from causing good Jedi to turn evil. There will be one main living baddie who will have to be stopped by the good guys. Then there will have to be some way to "turn off" the bad ghosts (sorry-that's the best way I could word it). This may involve having to destroy something sacred using something hard to find, etc. etc. etc. It may (and probably will) also involve some great sacrifice.
Oh and as for midiclorians, they seem to act as a genetic tendancy toward the ability to tap into the Force but do not really control the Force itself.
Take a Philosophy of Science course, and then you probably won't. Epistemology and Agnotology would also help make a skeptic of you.