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ST Episode VII Box Office Discussion

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Joe, Aug 20, 2013.

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  1. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013

    Yet some people complained about Attack of the Clones but The Empire Strikes Back rolls right off their tongues!

    The thematic signigicance of it also escapes them as who is doing the attacking? The Clones. Who do they work for? The Republic. Who leads them for the Republic? The Jedi. Who is leading the Clonetroopers into attack? Yoda. What does he preach in TESB? That Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

    Attack yet attack does he. To save other Jedi who were making an incursion of their own no less. The Jedi are lead into a trap where they started the war. For what? For one Jedi?
     
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  2. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 19, 1999
    Agreed. Attack of the Clones is a very bad movie. And it paid for it at the box office.
     
  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Sorry not sure what you are agreeing with.

    My last post I assume.

    I think AOTC is a great movie and as I've said it was simply a regular megahit like other movies of that era and after that like Passion of the Christ, The Incredibles, Pirates 1, Iron Man 1&2 and so on.
     
  4. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 19, 1999
    Sorry, I thought your point was that AOTC was thematically inconsistent with the OT and in fact made a mockery of the Jedi order as defined in the OT.

    No one would call it a megahit. It was only the fourth most successful movie of 2002, not one of the top ten movie of the 2 years on either side of it. It turned a good profit, so it was a hit. But it was the first Star Wars movie that wasn't the top film of the year it came out.
     
  5. unicron5

    unicron5 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    One thing I noticed going to Mark Hamil's interview is he's very quick to point out that the new characters in Episode VII are "instantly relatable".



    (2:00 in)

    If JJ can nail the characters and make them instantly likable, he is 65%+ of the way home already IMO. That's what A New Hope did, when you meet Luke, Han, Leia, they are all immediately recognizable archetypes. I think that's where Abrams is very good as a director, he is good with characters and that was really lacking with the prequels.

    That's the key to everything IMO, if that works, then the movie will do big, big business even if the plot isn't the greatest because the "non-nerd" audience will buy in to it and perhaps watch it multiple times (not just the Star Wars fanatics).
     
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  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    No, the point is that it was thematically consistent with the story. Meaning we got the payoff first in the OT and the set-up for that in the PT. The point is that the downfall of the Jedi came about because ultimately they didn't follow their own code. They got lost. Which is the point as Yoda lead the attack in AOTC and then was talking of war not making one great in TESB.

    It was a mega-hit just not a super mega hit. So it's akin to GotG or Maleficent, X-Men, Captain America etc. Mega hits but not able to break into that next level like Transformers did.
     
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  7. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 13, 2012
    Adjusted for inflation AOTC took $ 908 million worldwide so if that's not a mega hit the I don't know what is !.......
     
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  8. venepe

    venepe Jedi Master star 1

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    Feb 25, 2004
    I have a feeling it will not be as big as TPM was back in 1999. It has been less time in between movies, there has been a lot of Star Wars media in between. The only positive is the return of the original cast. So, I am guessing less than 1 billion worldwide.
     
  9. Pogue

    Pogue Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 28, 2014
    They should jack up the ticket prices even more like they did for that garbage movie Avatar. That way it can definitely reach $1 billion.
     
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  10. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Seriously? That it'll reach the $1b mark worldwide seems to be the one thing most people can agree on.
     
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  11. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Agreed. It should do somewhere between ROTS and TPM (minus 3D) NOT adjusted for inflation (so between $380 million and $431 million). That's a safe guess UNLESS it's panned by critics. I think critics will really want this one to do well and will really want to bolster it up.

    As many have said, you can't really look at adjusted gross and put it between ROTS and TPM in terms of their adjusted. Things have changed. There's more competition. There's been less demand for the SW product. There's skepticism abound. In addition, as many have said, the home entertainment capabilities are SO far superior to anything we've had even 10 years ago, hell, even 5 years ago. I have a 46 inch LCD which is amazing to me but I got it in 2010 for just under $1000 which was unheard of in 2005 let alone 1999. Nowadays, you can get a 55-60 inch LED for less.
     
  12. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    It made lots of money and lots of people went to see it. Not sure what your point is really? That is wasn't as financially successful as the other SW films? Perhaps, but one of the films is always going to be at the bottom of the list for which one made the least amount. But I'd be careful how interpret that fact to perceive other facts.
     
  13. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Well it did make $120 million less than TPM. Spiderman or not, that's a hefty plunge after TPM's $431 million.
     
  14. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Any "lacking" was completely and totally planned that way meaning they were supposed to be different. That's not lacking. That is story.

    The problem with that it that it doesn't work when you look at the reality of the situation. TPM was one of the super mega hits of all time.

    People liked the characters.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/3757/public-gives-latest-star-wars-installment-positive-rave-reviews.aspx

    The Characters
    What about the various characters that populate the movie? Gallup interviewers asked Americans to identify their favorite character from The Phantom Menace, and perhaps not surprisingly, the "force" was with the Jedi Knights. Qui-Gon Jinn (a Jedi knight portrayed by Liam Neeson) was the favorite of 18% of those who saw The Phantom Menace. Anakin Skywalker (who later becomes Darth Vader) and Obi-Wan Kenobi (played by Ewan McGregor) were favorites of 16% and 11% of viewers respectively.
    Although some allegations of racial stereotyping involve the character of Jar Jar Binks, 13% of Phantom Menace viewers still cite him as their favorite. Queen Amidala (Natalie Portman's character) and Darth Maul -- the movie's chief antagonist -- were favorites for 8% of respondents.


    Depends how you look at it. In the final total without the SE's TESB did 209M to ANH 307M but there are various factors involved. TESB just didn't get the same repeat viewing which would allow it to be released over and over and do business like ANH did.



    Well depends how you look at it.

    Unadjusted AOTC is 4th domestically and worldwide as well ahead of TESB or ROTJ. Now of course if you play the adjustment game then fine but it works both ways so then AOTC makes way more. Possibly more than TFA will even if it's a very big hit nevermind what TPM and ROTS made.
     
  15. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Bingo! Names of characters aside (and yeah we can have some fun in the meantime until we learn more), layered characters who show internal struggle and conflicting decisions that test their morals and relationships is key to building likeable, relatable characters in my opinion. He did that with Star Trek to a degree. He did that with LOST despite the plot and story went nowhere. He has the ability to do so. Likeable characters keep audiences coming back for repeated viewings. Sure, Trek didn't do gangbusters at the box office, but Trek is never and has never been a big theatrical presence so the money the first one did was due to the story and characters first and foremost.
     
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  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    I guess the characters of LOTR 1 and 2 were not so likeable then?

    FOTR only made 2M more and TTT only made 38M more.

    The X-Men films have done nothing like AOTC domestically so I guess TFA better stay away from those kinds of characters?

    Twilight is a lost closer but still not there.

    The Matrix characters? No.

    Harry Potter characters are around the same level as AOTC.

    Layered characters who show internal struggle and conflicting decisions that test their morals and relationships are what the heart of the PT is about in terms of Anakin and Padme and the same for the OT in terms of Luke then Vader. So really nothing new there but as with them you don't want to spread that around too much.
     
  17. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    What are you even talking about? Are you saying that LOTR and Harry Potter were failures at the box office? Are you saying that any of the movies were far below their own predecessors? Are you saying that HP and LOTR didn't have good characters? Sorry-I don't know what your point was.
     
  18. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 19, 1999
    Lucas's GFFA PT and Jackson's Middle Earth PT have much the same set of flaws and the same problem of diminished quality and grotesquely mutated aesthetic sensibilities between their respective OTs and PTs, yet both prove that preexisting brand appeal can deliver the box office numbers.

    The Sequel Trilogy is a new box office experiment that the Jackson Middle Earth franchise won't see. What happens when audiences process the the brand appeal of an original trilogy through the badly tarnished/diminished brand appeal of a second trilogy when they decide whether to purchase the products of a third trilogy?

    I assume like most of you that if the first movie is very good, all will be forgiven, though Star Wars may never again scale the box office heights of the OT.
     
  19. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    What is GFFA?
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Are you saying AOTC was a failure at the box office?

    If so then so were LOTR, HP and Twilight. X-Men were near disasters.

    You were equating likeable characters to repeat viewings and box office which AOTC did just as LOTR and HP did.

    All that really means is that the "flaws and problems" are subjective to the individual viewer and don't matter to the actual real general audience. Like everything else. The PT isn't diminished in any way shape or form as far as I am concerned.

    The problem with that is that it simply isn't true to the actual audience that went to see them. The diminishing is solely the product of a narrow band of the fanbase that didn't get what they want and they still want to get it.

    The only thing that needs to be forgiven is that the PT should get an apology from those that don't want to acknowledge it's success in general and the people in the fanbase who embrace them.

    I know the false story that is likely to be told is that if VII is under-performing the PT will be blamed and if it does as well as it should or better then it will be in spite of the PT not because of it never mind the actual facts.
     
  21. RobShanti

    RobShanti Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2009
    Well, in all fairness, he did say that Jedi never use THE FORCE for attack. He didn't. He used the clones to attack.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Revenge of the Sith made a lot of money and received a generally positive critical response. Shockingly, I expect The Force Awakens to do the same.
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    About BO of TPM, the PT and other films.

    First, TPM did excellent at the BO by pretty much any standard.
    It had the lowest opening yet the highest gross of all three PT films and a very high gross over all.
    It had low drops and thus very good legs and legs are a sign of a well liked film.
    Hype and great reviews can get you a big opening but in week 2 and 3 and onwards then WOM matters more.
    TPM had a 64 M$ opening and about a 430 M$ total at the domestic BO. Early weekend drops were never over 40%.

    To compare, Spiderman, who had good legs too, had 114 M$ opening weekend and about 400 M$ total.
    For that big opening, it had good legs, esp since it faced a SW movie in it's third week. But not as good as TPM.
    FotR, had 47 M$ opening and about 310 M$ total. Those are legs on par with TPM.

    So no question, TPM was well liked.

    So second, AotC and it's about 27 % drop. People compare it with ESB but given the big difference in cinema going habits, Video, DVD etc and back then, a sequel equaling or out grossing it's predecessor was almost unheard of.
    From 2000 and onwards, that has become quite a bit more common.
    So I think a comparison between the PT to other films series at the same time is a bit more apt.
    LotR and the first three X Men films all increased from the previous film.
    Harry Potter 1 to 2, dropped about 15 %, Spiderman 1 to 2, dropped about 7 %.
    Matrix 1 to 2 increased a lot, same with Pirates 1 to 2, then the third films dropped quite a bit.
    Thor 2 increased over Thor 1, same thing with Cap Am 2 over Cap Am 1.
    So it was by no means a given that AotC would drop or drop that much.

    So what caused the fairly large drop from TPM to AotC? TPM was well liked, the legs indicate that. AotC opened bigger, about 80 M$ and had a 302 M$ total BO, IMAX not included. The bigger opening is common for sequels but the drops were bigger as well. People have blamed competition with Spiderman but I am not sure. AotC's overseas gross dropped as well and in a number of countries Spiderman was released after AotC and thus not competition.
    It would seem to me that a likely explanation is the film itself, people didn't like it at much and WOM wasn't as good.

    Third, about overseas gross and trying to adjust it for inflation. Doing that would be very hard as not only do you have different rates of inflation but you also have the variations in exchange rates. For ex, in 2001 the dollar was quite expensive compared to the Euro and a number of other currencies. This Decreased the overseas gross of films released that year as that was reported in dollars. Had the dollar been as cheap in 2001 as in 1999 then it is likely that HP 1 would have grossed over a billion world wide and FotR might have out grossed TPM. Even this year the dollar is again expensive compared to other currencies, this could hurt Hobbit 3 overseas gross.

    Lastly, I found this in one of the old BO threads here. This was reported by a German News agency, sorry been unable to find the name, and they had calculated the total number of tickets sold world wide. How? I don't know, but this is the list.
    BTW the list was made in 2002 so FotR had not finished it's theatrical run.

    1 Gone with the wind (1939/504,3) 2 Star Wars (1977/436,3) 3 Titanic (1997/355,4) 4 Jaws (1975/342,0) 5 Jungle Book (1967/335,3) 6 Snow White (1937/329,0) 7 101 Dalmatians (1961/319,9) 8 Grease (1978/310,1) 9 Empire strikes back (1980/281,4) 10 Sound of Music (1965/255,4) 11 10 Commandments(1956/246,0) 12 E.T. (1982/242,1) 13 Return of the Jedi(1983/227,8) 14 Ben Hur (1959/208,0) 15 Jurassic Park (1993/201,6) 18 Harry Potter 1 (2001/198,1) 22 TPM(1999/167,9) 26 FOTR(2001/155,9) The figures are the year and millions of tickets sold. I don't know but I would assume that the SE of the OT are included.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  24. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 19, 1999
    I guess I'd disagree that TPM was all that well liked. Liking is more than how you feel immediately after coming out of the theater. It's also about how much you want to see it again and how you feel about it a while later after reflection.

    TPM got a huge percentage of the entire moviegoing audience because of the stratospheric levels of hype due to the popularity of the OT and the rekindling of that hype for the special editions. It also got a big percentage of the audience because people who grew up with the OT had children and then took them to see the Phantom Menace as a way of sharing their own childhood experiences with their kids.

    But repeat viewing wasn't a big factor. And disaffection with TPM led a large percentage of the Star Wars audience to not come back for AOTC. This disaffection also tamped down on the media hype ahead of AOTC. Revenge of the Sith got another boost because nostalgia for the end of the saga kicked in again for the original audience and because ROTS was the only prequel story that fans of the original audience were really all that interested in to begin with.

    The true story that will be told is that VII will make nearly $1 billion whether it is good or not very good because of the power of the brand name. It will make more if it is good, but no matter what it will make less than it would have made had the PT been a real popular success and the brand name had come out of the PT unscathed. The truth is, the PT is like the Transformer series. Looks good on paper, but completely forgettable as moviegoing experiences. There's nothing memorable to hold in you head afterwards, sort of like taking a very satisfying dump. Pleasurable as it happens, but fades into the experience of every other dump you've ever taken.

    And if TFA is bad, then I think it will kill the box office power of the brand, because people will not go back to be fooled again by something that turns out like AOTC.

    If it is good, then people come back for Episode VIII. Audiences are forgiving. And they're curious about hype. But they don't like to be fooled.
     
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  25. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Agreed. I firmly believe TFA is intended to "rehabilitate" the brand by LFL. If TFA is good, EpVIII will be huge.
     
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