ST Episode VII to return to 'grittier roots'

It may be interesting, but that part of the movie is empty. From the moment they went in that asteroid field till the moment they went out, the story hasn't moved a bit. Yes, Han managed to squeeze Leia and concretize that relationship, but given the fact that their romance leads to nowhere and that we got a spacewalk with just breathing masks on, mynocks that need wings in vacuum and a space slug, it certainly cannot be better than Kenobi's fight in Geonosis' ring as long as the story matters.

 

I already said that's my least favorite section of any Star Wars movie, but I will say there is one interesting thing about it on a story level, and that's the symbology of entering a cave, which represents the unconscious, and using that location for Han and Leia's desire for each other to begin to manifest openly; while Luke undergoes his Jedi training, also involving a cave where the unconscious takes a form of reality. On that level it's actually pretty cool, but I still think it's rather boring to watch.

 

I agree - I definitely wanted a corruption of Anakin's theme that evolved into Vader's... There is an uptempo version of Anakin's leitmotif that appears in both Anakin Defeats Sebulba and Panaka: The Queen's Protectors... although it's a mere bar or two. Definitely with you on a concert arrangement of the TF March (with maybe Dooku's theme worked in there too)... perhaps I'll do a little edit of that myself.

I agree that the love elements didn't particularly work in AOTC... I don't even think it needed them to be honest... well not in the amount we got (which could have been improved with a simple editing of material). I think that was the Titanic effect on George Lucas... bloody Dicaprio and Winslet. Interested to know if you think the PT score works as well or is better than the OT... and if, like me, you believe the scores failed the films at some moments. An interesting experiment, if you have the will, is to watch something like the pod race, Arena Jedi fight/battle of Geonosis/battle above Coruscant - whilst playing Tie Fighter Attack, The Asteroid Field or Sail Barge Assault etc. see if they make those scenes 'better' or closer to the OT for you.

 

I don't know if I would say failed, just more that many felt like pieces of music that could be dropped in and looped as the film would inevitably be recut and restructured right up until the last minute. I did like Dooku's theme too. Also, I could have used a little Imperial march during the raid on the temple. It's odd that little touchstones like that weren't hit.

I agree with the less is more point about the romance too. It also doesn't help that evolves at a snail's pace away from any dramatic momentum. By going for his love Haiku motif, Lucas kind of hamstrung himself. Had he put them under actual stress it could have been a lot more fun - say have the ship that Anakin is escorting Padme away on gets hit by Federation boarders, they have to fight their way out and are on the run together. They can still make their detour to Tatooine that way, and we could have seen their relationship blossom rather than being told about it in declaratory dialogue.

 

I think where, for me, TESB works better than AOTC is that TESB juxtapositions an asteroid chase (and the internal Millennium Falcom shenanigans) with Luke being trained on Dagobah. AOTC juxtaposes Obi-Wan's investigations into Jango (which I think is an extremely well executed and fun bit of 'Star Wars') with Anakin and Padme walking about and sitting in fields falling in love... and as much as I don't mind seeing Anakin and Padme falling in love, it's just not as narratively interesting as seeing Luke and Yoda on Dagobah. If anything, Lucas should have focused more on the element of Shmi being kidnapped by the Tuskens and the ramifications of that... have Anakin and Padme have their first kiss on Tatooine during the more compelling part of that side story... I think that would have then brought the overall level of AOTC up a few notches... Saying that I still like AOTC, despite the hokey love elements, and for me it still has the best last 45 mins outside ANH.

 

Yeah, completely agree (apart from last sentence - although I do enjoy it (do you like the new Blu-Ray edit of Dooku's escape though? I think it's terrible).

 

For my part, the new Dooku escape is a mixed bag... I like that there's a cutaway between his ship leaving Geonosis and arriving at Coruscant now, but I do think Yoda gives up a little too soon and the gag of him using his cane again doesn't work quite as well. The music change doesn't bother me, probably because I'm used to JW's score being chopped up in the prequels already. All in all, nothing to get worked up over IMO.

 

Hard to believe we are both Star Wars fans. So close yet so far.

If you perceive a movie as a series of things that happen, like the prequels approach, then yeah the asteroid field in ESB is "empty" as you say.

I hope the creative team behind Episode VII distance themselves from that line of thought as much as possible.

 

It just feels weird now, like there is enough time to try and catch Dooku, but Yoda is too busy catching his breath.

I can see why some wouldn't notice/ be bothered, but for me it's another one of those head-scratchers. It worked perfectly well before. Now, not so much.

 

As you just said, the main romantic storyline of the OT really starts moving there so.......not sure you can say its empty.

Outside of the actually chase it isn't the most exciting or jammed packed part of the movie (or the whole trilogy)

 

NOTHING is grittier than PORKINS!

 

To me the romantic storyline of the OT is a pretty empty excuse to just give Han and Leia something to do, since there would be very little substance to their characters beyond ANH otherwise.

 

As you mentioned... it's not really required.

Re. the other thread which is now closed. Sorry didn't recognise the Tarkin "stench" gag... and yes I'd agree that there's a media perception that the PT is inferior to the OT (which is probably based on a truth given that ANH and TESB are unarguably great and culturally significant films). Then I think there's a secondary perception that more applies to fandoms and movie media/sites that the prequels are bad/unpopular films (which I believe is based not on the reality of the situation).

 

I wouldn't strongly debate any of that.

 

Where you like the love story, if its well done or not etc.... is a different discussion. I'm just saying you can't all it an empty space in the movie when it does do something fairly important.

 

I like parts of the love story, but I agree that's a different discussion. My point is that it isn't important to the story at all. I suppose if it leads to them having children with major roles in the ST, then that will be something, but as far as the OT itself goes, it's entirely inconsequential other than to wring out a few emotional beats and give the actors something to play.

 

But it is important because it really lays the foundation for the love story between the two.

There is certainly some fluff in there (the whole landing inside the space slug thing) but its not completely empty space either.

 

I know that scene lays the foundation for the love story, or at least brings it more to the forefront. The argument I'm making is that the love story itself is wholly unimportant to the story of the films, and serves no real purpose other than to prop up characters who would otherwise have nothing to do.

 

Thats what I said is another discussion. Fact is the Love story is in there, and those scenes really set it up. Therefore, not empty.

 

If you want to get technical about it, it was set up in ANH when Han shows interest in Leia to Luke. And then again when Han and Leia are reintroduced in TESB with Han trying to get Leia to admit that she has feelings for him. What happens in the cave is just the first time Leia lets her guard down for a moment.

 

Sure, but those scenes after the chase push it forward and show Leia maybe feeling the same way.

 

Right but the problem for me is that apart from being unnecessary to the narrative it slows down the film too much in a section that's already slow with Luke's Dagobah training, which are some of the best scenes in the saga, but still a slow point. They try to create tension with the asteroid chase and having to hide out, but once they're in the cave the movie stops dead to focus on the Love angle only to attempt to ramp up the tension again with the Mynocks and Space Slug, which fails miserably in my opinion. Contrast that to AOTC, where you have Anakin and Padme's love story (and you can criticize the dialogue all you want but if nothing else it's important to the story and the setting is beautiful), much more successfully juxtaposed with Obi-Wan's trip to Kamino, with his discovery of the clones and tense exchange with Jango. For what it's worth, I actually think AOTC has the best pacing of all the Star Wars movies.

 

Unfortunately, great pacing didn't make AOTC a great movie. Worth watching? Yes. A classic like TESB? Not even close.

 

It's funny. I remember when AOTC was released many people said Star Wars was back after the failure of TPM. Now a lot of people have re-evaluated TPM and say it isn't really that bad, but somewhere along the way it was decided that AOTC was the worst instead. I was a big supporter of TPM back in the day and now I find myself defending AOTC, which I think is unfairly dismissed these days primarily due to a few awkward moments and some bad dialogue. I have issues with those things at times as well, but from a visual perspective I think it's virtually flawless and my favorite of all the movies. I love the overall mysterious vibe leading up to the immensely fun Harryhausenesque arena sequence, the mass Jedi battle, and the outbreak of all-out war which are all unparalleled. And finally the story is really moving to me, especially combined with JW's music, particularly the lush and tragic love theme which really sets it apart tonally from the rest of the movies. I'm not arguing that it is or will ever be considered the classic that TESB is, but I do think it deserves better treatment than it gets.

 

This is probably the biggest disagreement I've had here. Every argument you expose is the exact opposite of what I think. Fascinating.

You're describing one of the sequences where ESB showcased elegantly crafted character development as if it was "unnecessary to the narrative". Narrative is all about characters. If having a nonsensical love scene and a non character going from boring jedi monk to private investigator is your idea of succesful narrative and pacing, then I hope you hate Episode VII when it comes out.