A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

They copied the plot from a S1 episode of Clone Wars with the Malevolence chase, with the Good guys and bad guys swapped around and as for Luke Milking a sea monster, I could’ve gone without seeing that

 

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In those three years between ANH and ESB Luke had no one to teach him, and he still didn't seem to fully accept who he was. Obi-Wan sends Luke to "complete his training", but Yoda doesn't really do crap either. Wow, they run around and do some physical therapy and Yoda drops the "there is no try" bit.

Hey, at least I understand and respect your reservations, (same with Trip) and like I said, for me this fixes what I always found to be something that grated on me about how EU writers and later the canon itself treated bloodlines so that characters got reduced to "need to spawn the next generation".

It just never seemed like Luke really needed training besides the acceptance that he could do it, and once he has the confidence (manifesting at first as overconfidence), he can do anything. In the year between ESB and RoTJ he's suddenly now a full Jedi Master, despite not having gone back to train...I mean, it has just never seemed to me like formal training was really anything more than "we're going to turn this into rote skills so you never reach outside what we tell you your potential is in case you get too powerful or fall to the dark side".

I actually think the force as the driving factor...the force sort of awakening, if you will, isn't at all space Jesus-y and is instead more inline with the implication that Jedi were an order of knights who had power because of their beliefs, not their blood factors or parentage, and that everyone probably unconsciously used the force in some way since no living thing was separate from it.

The stable boy probably have some natural aptitude and when pushed he could do one thing, make a broom come to him.

Anakin wasn't trying to move things with his mind because there were no stories that told him he could. All the stories were of the secret religious order who came round and took you off if you passed their blood test.

Luke didn't think he was special until he's told by Obi-Wan, and then he's able to dream of being a Jedi.

That Luke, a poor farm boy from nowhere, would rise to be the hero of the rebellion and become a mythical figure, he inspired countless kids in-universe (and out) to reach out their hand to try to pull something to them.

Now, the kids who might have some talent may never progress, they may never realize the extent of their gifts...without a teacher, like the last Jedi, Rey, another nobody* who was chosen by the force to be a conduit and to accept the power, not because of her birthright, but because she was the right person for the force to finish balancing things with.

*Or not, honestly I'm not convinced about the parents thing, but the larger point is even if she's Ben sister...her acceptance and embrace of being a Jedi comes from herself and not any outside validation. {/spoiler}

 

In the OPENING CRAWL it is claimed, that

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the republic has been destroyed by none other than the First Order

wut? say again? I mean, how? That doesn't even make sense.When did they manage to do that?
Do these people even understand what

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a galactic republic is and how huge it actually is. Unless it consisted of only a few star systems, that were conveniently destroyed by a ridiculously huge copy of death star in TFA, I don't see how a small cult (compared to how huge the galaxy is) of imperial wannabes could pull that off so easily and off the screen. Even the trade federation could reemerge from the ashes and field more troops and fleets than this pathetic rabble we saw in the movie. How easily the republic was disposed of. Does the First Order own territory, huge factories, where is their wartime economy located? Unknown regions? And don't get me started on this new underdog (OT all over again) - the rebellion, I mean, the resistance.

Maybe for a change they should hire specialists with understanding of military matters, strategies, who would be able to envision future battle concept combined with the complexity of modern combat

Oh, and:

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Rey is still a wet dream of modern superfeminists. I don't hate the actress. I dislike what has been done to her character.

Good thing:

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special effects and CGI was spot on.

 

Going to see a new Star Wars movie.

May the force be with me.

 

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That movie was genuinely weird and it's going to take me a long time to process everything I think about it. During large portions of the movie I wasn't sure if it was going to come together for me, but it did in a big way. Everything from the throne room scene on pulled me in.

In a lot of ways Rian decided to take all of the baggage of TFA and settle it in one movie. Snoke's identity was basically an empty mystery box. He was a second rate Sidious knock off and Rian just accepted that fact by killing him off 2/3rds of the way through the movie. Rey's parents also seem to be another empty mystery box. But now that that is cleared away Rey can grow on her own terms and become her own character.

 

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The boards are overloaded at the moment and I can't quote the post I'm addressing here, but regarding the Resistance survivors, Nien Nunb survived.

 

I loved it, I'll get some more coherent thoughts out when the boards aren't falling apart and when I've seen it another time but this had all the true Star Wars feeling TFA was missing, while also being a bit off-kilter and a bit too funny for my taste, but so much of this movie delivers things I wanted, thing I didn't know I wanted, and a truly strange vision of this galaxy far far away I love so much. Can't wait to go again.

 

TLJ is the Neon Genesis Evangelion of Star Wars.

And that's pretty weird and crazy all at the same time.

Quick, someone set the trailer to Cruel Angel Thesis.

 

Hey there Lukey could you do me a favour? Would you kindly just get inside the robot....

 

it was a good

 

Movie was amazing, but as for things I disliked:

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Phasma, she better not be dead, that'd be ridiculous and then it feels even more like Rian is just erasing the stories JJ set up to be told.

Ackbar, I'm certain of how I feel about this, his death was unnecessary and I didn't like the way he went out.

Luke, still not sure how I feel about his death, kinda liked it and I kinda didn't, but it's still Luke, who is so important who died. Not sure of how I feel about it.

I think the movie would've been better if some of these was handled different and with more care. Still it was amazing.

No idea what is going to happen in regards to Leia in IX. Kathleen said in an interview some time after she died that Carrie wouldn't be appearing in IX, of course this doesen't specifically mean Leia, and she also corrected that, taking her out would be something they don't do. Does this mean recasting? That'd feel odd.

 

Have very mixed feelings about this movie, but overall I did enjoy it.

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I don’t know what you mean by superfeminists, but Rey’s characterization was actually one of my major complaints about the movie. She was mostly a prop to facilitate the Skywalker men’s stories, and acted too much pathetically like battered girlfriend with no convincing reason to care as much as she did for guy who she just met and mutilated her friend and killed countless of innocent victims including Han. If she was a wet dream to anybody, it was to Reylos – before she grew a brain and shut the door on Kylo. Hopefully for good.
However, her scene lifting rocks to help the Resistance escape after Luke saying he was not the last Jedi to his deranged nephew, was AWESOME.

 

I really, really, really enjoyed this film, but I also feel like it was weirdly pitched to my specific personality and artistic affinities, so there are limits to how much I would defend it. Anyway, some random thoughts:

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This movie is to an extent a deconstruction of a lot of aspects of Star Wars, but it deconstructs things that could use deconstructing, affirms and clearly really loves a lot of other things about Star Wars, and uses that deconstruction for actually positive and constructive and meaningful purposes. It's not just a dark n' edgy nihilistic bull****; it's a story with clear and well-integrated meaning and themes that are bigger than a fantasy movie about guys with magical laser swords. It really tries to transcend Star Wars, and if it succeeds imperfectly, that's still pretty damn impressive.
The first thing you look for in art is always the jokes. I like the creativity and general love for the characters and setting that come through in the humor, but at the same time, some more restraint would have made this a better movie. There are times when the humor comes off as kind of flippant (Luke tossing the lightsaber away was a pretty lame way to avoid paying off that moment from TFA).

One of the main things I think this film deconstructs is stupid good-evil dualism stuff that's haunted Star Wars from the beginning. "The Force" and "the Light" here are the balance among natural forces like creation and destruction, and the transcendent source underlying them. Evil is also pretty clearly privation of being, all smoke and mirrors, disorder and imbalance and egoism and weakness. Rey enters the dark side nexus and it's literally just smoke and mirrors; it isolates her and reflects her own egotistical desires back to her, but has no reality or substance to it. Palpatine was (metaphorically) the Devil--Snoke is just an arrogant, egotistical (and importantly, physically damaged) moron who likes to dress fancy, abuses the power of the Force for his own random purposes, but clearly has no real understanding of anything, including himself. Kylo Ren is evil precisely because he's a damaged, weak, pathetic person acting out of his pathologies and dysfunctions and fundamental refusal to face the things he's afraid of. The First Order are powerful only because (as the whole Canto Bight plotline is designed to make clear) they've managed to feed off of the despair and fear and inaction and greed and egotism of others. Fundamentally, though, they're losers.

I don't really care if we ever find out about Snoke. It was always a bad idea to have another random hooded alien as the Big Bad in the ST. If he's not going to be, like, the guy who created the Dark Side or something, Kylo Ren makes an infinitely better main villain for the ST. He fits so much better with the developing themes of the ST. The OT was about defeating triumphant and overpowering evil and ended with our heroes using the power of redeeming love to kill the devil. The ST is about the difficulties and struggles of passing the torch to the next generation, and maintaining hope and vigilance and constancy in the face of the shadows of the past and personal failures and continuing evil. Kylo Ren is the living embodiment of all these problems.

On that note, if Leia has to die offscreen, at least her plotline in this film was largely about passing the torch to other people in the Resistance. This is not a bad way for her to go out, ultimately.

Similarly, I am so glad that we actually got a satisfying conclusion for Luke's character instead of the horror show that was the latter-day EU. He's kind of a pathetic moron for the first third of the film, but having him accept his weakness and failure, anoint a successor, show up evil as a pathetic sham one last time, and then transcend the physical universe entirely through compassionate love is pretty damn good. Also, Luke has to go out looking at the Binary Sunset, there's no question.

On the other hand, Admiral Ackbar should not have been taken out like a chump. RIP, gone but not forgotten.

On the other other hand, I'm very glad Phasma got taken out like a chump. Captain Phasma the Extra-Shiny Stormtrooper was never ever ever ever ever cool for a single moment in any aspect of her character in any of her appearances, and the attempts to drum up hype around her have been incredibly stupid from the beginning. Maybe someday someone in the EU will write something good about her, though, but for now, good riddance.

Rey, though, is still awesome, though her character is also not very complex. I'm okay with that, though--she's the image and paragon of goodness and purity and promise in these films. I'm also glad she's just a random person that the Force-as-God chose and endowed with grace. The Force can do what it wants, folks--it's not limited by RPG mechanics or magical midichlorian blood. I'm glad she saved the Jedi books, though.

This is easy to overlook, but the quiet power of the Luke-Leia stuff, and the oblique ways Han is made a positive and deeply-felt presence, are pretty wonderful.

I liked TFA, but I can't imagine JJ Abrams following up on a lot of this stuff very well, but well, we'll see.

 

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I think that's her "thing"- she appears to die, but comes back in the next film with more reasons to hate the good guys. The nemesis that you can't be sure you've completely killed

 

Wow, the boards are really broken, a message I meant to post once got posted multiple times.

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It does seem as if the writer had some bizarre Reylo fascination, and spent more time shipping them than thinking up any coherent backstory for Snoke or why Luke went onto that island. I honestly hoped Luke had a plan--just something, and that he was hiding to be invisible from the First Order while he executed those plans.
That Luke would hide what happened with Ben from Han and Leia (they didn't know, the incident is never mentioned in TFA)--it's like not only do we not get a reunion of the Big 3, but that idea of them having a bond and being open and honest with each other, even no matter how painful, has been destroyed too.

Say what you will about politics in the prequels, they at least point out certain realities that Palpatine can't keep control of the galaxy without leaving the Senate intact, the Moffs immediately question how they will govern without the Senate until they realize they are in charge, etc.

Snoke blows up the capitol, has infinite power and resources and just rules just like that without explanation, and then Kylo just gets it when he kills Snoke. None of the logistics of this are really thought through.

 

The First Order:

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Is entirely based around the idea of an allout blitz on a weakened galaxy. It's the total sum of all the old Imperial remnant, and the 30 years of rearming inbetween. The most major force that could have opposed them they hit with an alpha strike from across the galaxy. Their offensive is happening days after the total loss of the New Republic's fleet. In short, we're not shown how the First Order is actually going to keep any of the territory they hold. They don't have infinite resources, it's just that the Resistance is absolutely tiny in comparison with the rebellion. The time factor here is the biggest thing.

 

I think quite a few problems with the movie on the Lit forums is TFA established things about the First Order which they completely ignored because they didn't want to believe it.

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* The Republic would be destroyed with Hosnian Prime - Hux
* The First Order really IS so powerful that opposing it is suicide - Finn

I think people need to honestly accept it really is as powerful and big as they claim.

 

My first viewing of these ST movies is always surreal. I think it's just the fact that it's telling stories set in an era i thought i already knew, and it's just... weird.

No matter how much i wanted films of what i read before, i knew that was unlikely at best. So made those films in my head based on the text. I dont have that now. And yet, there are sooooo many echoes of the Legends timeline in these movies.

I genuinely like them, but the first viewing is almost like the uncanny valley or something. Not sure how to describe it.


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

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There was no Reylo shipping in this film. Ship teasing, sure, but ultimately it was fakeout Reylo trolling. I'm sure the diehards will still hold out hope, but their final exchange is Kylo pouting while Rey slams the DOOR OF A SHIP IN HIS FACE and then Kylo realises "Oh, no dice".

Literally.

 

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Should we be worried that some former Imperial war criminal ultimately gets handed control of the galaxy at the end of E9?
And at least the trilogy is over with the next movie, so we don't have a 3 author over 9 book situation. Like the Jaina/Zekk/Jag love triangle. Then again, it could be Rey/Finn in TFA, Rey/Kylo in TLJ and Rey/Poe in E9.
Did the FO really chase the Resistance ships for 18 hours? No Boarding parties? No other ships coming in to cut them off or surround them? Heck, no one else was able to come to the Resistance's aid for the whole movie?

 

I'm going to post some lines of dialogue from an old EU source, and would love to see some general reactions.

Note: I am not saying this character is 100% right, but rather the film of the Last Jedi is addressing and talking about the themes raised by this storyline. It's all about what a deconstruction actually is, and why you do it. To make the whole better again.

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Sion: The failure is yours. No longer do your whispers crawl within my skull, no longer do we suffer beneath teachings that weaken us. And now you run in search of the Jedi... They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness which is to come.​

Kreia: Perhaps... We shall see.​

Atton Rand: The Jedi... The Sith... You don't get it, do you? To the Galaxy, they're the same thing: Men and women with too much power, squabbling over religion, while the rest of us burn!​

​

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Vrook: You were deafened.​

Kreia: At last you could hear.​

Kavar: You were broken.​

Kreia: You were whole.​

Zez-Kai-Ell: You were blinded.​

Kreia: And at last, you saw.​

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Kreia: A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking. Too long did the Republic remain unchallenged. It is a stagnant beast that labors for breath; and has for centuries. The Jedi Order was the heart that sustained its sickness — now the Jedi are lost, we shall see how long the Republic can survive.​

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Kreia: You see, the war, the true war, has never been one waged by droids, warships, or soldiers. They are but crude matter, obstacles against which we test ourselves. The true war is waged in the hearts of all living things, against our own natures, light or dark. That is what shapes and binds this galaxy, not these creations of man. You are the battleground. And if you fall, the death of the Republic will be such a quiet thing, a whisper, that shall herald the darkness to come.​

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Kreia: Direct action is not always the best way. It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes than to close theirs forever.​

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Kreia: Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you.​

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Kreia: I do not have the years required – nor the desire to indulge you.​

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Atton: If she served in the war... well, Jedi are supposed to be tough. Capable.​

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Kreia: Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child.​

 

First of all, I liked it. It was a lot of fun, but since I'm more of a grouch, let's see:

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I ended up somewhat tired and I don't feel like seeing it again soon. I don't feel like it has a lot of replayability, not for me at least.
Acting and directing felt pretty good. Writing... not so much.
I hated the mutiny subplot as it lead nowhere. We learned that Poe is brash and impulsive; defiant and not afraid to stand up for his beliefs... then we saw it again... and again... and again and he ended up receiveing only a smack for it; then woke up to be the same. His actions should have gotten him handcuffed or marooned, but no, everyone was "aw, Poe is gonna Poe".
I felt Holdo was completely unnecessary. Laura Dern must have sick connections at Lucasfilm. All of her purpose could have been filled by Ackbar and a fan-favorite could've had an heroic sendoff. Instead we got "oh, fish guy was blown away" and "oh noooo tall lady in the cocktail dress who we had never seen is making the ultimate sacrifice; please Force no, sob".
The Finn/Rose subplot was fun, although the message felt a bit heavy handed. Rich people = bad.
I miss Palpatine. After seeing Snoke go out like a chump, I'm not even extremely eager to know where he came from, he was just a plot device like Lor San Tekka. Even Darth Maul who was an apprentice can overcome getting sliced better than Mr. I cannot be betrayed.
Kylo Ren is the meanest villiain ever. He not only wants to destroy my generation and the one before; he also wants to destroy Star Wars!
I still feel we're seeing too few aliens in comparison to the prequels. Missing familiar species. Does George hold the rights on Rodians, Duros, Twi'lek or something?
While I'm ok with Rey Nobody, I'm still suspecting there's more to it, espcially after seeing slave kid at the end. I suscribe to the 'Boys from Brazil' theory that there is an attempt to make powerful darksiders by giving them the life of Anakin Skywalker.
I'd have liked to see R2 power down for good right there with Luke when he dies. After all, he has been made obsolete by the superhero coin-shooting, walker-driving, BB8
I really hope Ep. IX is not just about the Adventures of Kylo Ren and Rey's romantic shenanigans but I have zero trust in Abrams; especially after Rian Johnson mopped the floor with him.

 

That moment when you sit in shock at the notion that Troy Denning might understand Luke Skywalker better than Rian Johnson.

 

More thoughts after a night of rest

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I know this was directed by Johnson instead of JJ, but its kind of funny how there are still some nuTrek parallels. A bunch of transports flying away from unstoppable ship, while their capital ship then rams the big ship to cripple it (but doesn't destroy it, I half expect the Supremacy to be rebuilt later). Well, its not like that idea hasn't been used in fiction before (captain goes down with the ship, ramming speed, etc.) but it stands out more after how much TFA ripped off the OT and nuTrek. I wonder if any of the background books will come up with some explanation for why there isn't more hyperspace ramming, sure seems useful.

Just still wish the Resistance hadn't been so passive the entire movie. Its like the ESB asteroid chase just without any of the excitement or tension or fun. Or how they didn't close the base doors until the FO were right outside. It was just a contrived reason so Finn and Rose could rejoin them, but doesn't make them look any more competent. Still feels like we're at Episode 3.75 (with TFA being 3.5) in terms of story progress.

I really wish the ship chase hadn't lasted so long. I'm surprised they didn't just have TIE Fighters ram into the shields, its not like the FO cares about their people.

The conflict between Poe and Holdo felt really forced. She couldn't explain her plan six hours earlier because...? I thought at first that there was a spy on board and that's how the First Order was tracking them, and that's why she didn't explain her plan until they were abandoning ship. Instead, no, they just need Poe to do something, and he looked more right, other than Leia complaining about his actions (which sure seemed necessary, otherwise the cruiser would have been blown up in the first ten minutes by that dreadnought).

By the way, at the end Rey doesn't have a lightsaber anymore, right? Since the Anakin Skywalker one was ripped in half during that struggle between her and Kylo (and then she woke up first and ran away). So what's the betting on what color her new lightsaber will be? Probably something super special and flashier than just plain old blue or green. Hm, maybe if they gave her a double-bladed one that could be a good replacement for her stuff. I thought the books had burnt up with the tree, but online they say it was in that locker on the Falcon (when Finn was looking for a blanket for Rose), and now that I think about it, there was extra stuff in that locker (but considering how pointless most of Finn's and Rose's actions were, who knows). So if she grabbed the books first, that'll probably give her the knowledge for how to build one. Or they can ask Maz, since she knows everything apparently.

 

I didn't even think about that. Considering how much Troy Denning got wrong (and it was a lot), it's just a very sad feeling.